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The coming Civil War

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 06 Mar 2019, 23:05:04

The drug dealing gangs will try to do here what they do in Mexico by controlling turf and intimidating the police forces. If the government fails to stop them the armed whites will go to war with them and the rules of engagement will not be pretty.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 03:52:40

The people in Venezuela would disagree with you about the uselessness of guns. So would Mao.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 07:04:21

vtsnowedin wrote:The drug dealing gangs will try to do here what they do in Mexico by controlling turf and intimidating the police forces. If the government fails to stop them the armed whites will go to war with them and the rules of engagement will not be pretty.


I don’t know that this is true. My understanding is that there are various rural areas today that are fairly poor and with high drug related crime rates. But I’m not hearing of local communities handing together to do much.

Several years ago I did hear a couple of stories from Canada. Grand Manan Island got an infusion of druggies. A few fishermen got together and smoked them out. Took a few lot shots at them as they came out of the burning house. That got a big infusion of Mounties until order was restored.

About that time there was some kid in a Halifax neighborhood who was created problems. Neighbors, fed up with police, gathered and stood in front of the house, a whole bunch. That lasted for a day or two. I think the family moved out or turned the kid in. I forget the details but it was effective.

You hear any similar stories in the states?
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 07:25:01

Newfie wrote:
You hear any similar stories in the states?


In those examples you gave the civic glue in those smaller towns or cities is still binding the locals in a way where this shaming or neighborhood resistance functions. In the US we stripped away our sense of civic duty on the alter of consumption. How do you win back this sense of civic responsibility? By the way, it is this sense of feeling alienated in society that gives the media the hold it has on folks which is what exasperates the dumbed down tribal positions people take... which is why I think this is mostly superficial.

Lots of lonely rage with very little traction.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 07:37:08

While the fentanyl problem is as big in rural Vermont as anywhere the traffickers delivering it drive up from Boston or New York and don't make their presence known here anymore then necessary. My understanding is that some poor neighborhoods in the cities now are under the day to day control of the MS13 gang and it's rivals to the point that a policeman will not venture into the area alone and why they are so quick to shoot when confronted by any person of color. The whites in those areas just move out because most of them can afford to.
The trouble will come if the flow of welfare and social security money declines to those ghettos and the gangs start raiding the gated white communities to feed the drug machine. When one of my daughters moved into a "secure apartment" in Atlanta it was broken into within a week only they found she had no high end fence-able things in it. If things get bad in the future Apartment complexes such as her's will probably hire armed guards etc. to tighten security. And that of course will raise the rent squeezing out any poor people colored or not from the complex.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 10:05:42

VT,

That is similar to what understand. And that’s why I fear local civil disturbance more than a general ideological civil war. Each city, geographically isolated, will have its own wanna be emperors, charismatic leaders. I see nothing to unite DC with NY with Chicago with LA with Houston.

Another way to look at the causation is that local gangs/authority arise when the local government fails the local people. And that’s what’s happening, the government is failing the population. Too many too poor too uneducated too in arcirated with too little hope. In one way the drug lords and gangs/organization are very successful capitalist, they are making their way in a tough world. They will be tough cookies to defeat.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 12:46:15

There's a lot more danger coming from what the internet is becoming than from what this thread is all in a lather about. Riots, and then what? Riots presuppose there is something underneath that the people want, but aren't getting. An extension of that argument supposes that there is an alternative system in the people's minds that they would like to impose. It's a huge stretch to think that Americans are going to riot to impose some form of Communism. Nobody in local neighborhood America has the slightest idea how to maintain the levers of production. They can't keep the lights on all by themselves. When their water has lead in it, they don't know what to do. All they could possibly do would be to scrape some excess goods off of show rooms, and out of what is today very small back room storage. There would be no pressing for control involved. We are talking about a populace that needs to be led, not that will do the leading.

As I said, there is more danger from the internet, for it is from where these people will be getting the understanding of who they are. The influences they encounter there will organize them into what passes for organic structure. A scary example of that is something I read on the BBC this morning about a woman in Germany whose daughter was killed while she was away. She found her stabbed to death when she got home. Some ultra-nationalist leader in Germany got hold of the story and sent out messages on social media blaming Muslim immigrants. His messages fit well with a meme of Muslim immigrant rape and murder going around within the country. It was a manifestation of the hatred and fear of the outsiders that was engendered within the far right and had spread out to the general populace as a result of Chancellor Merkel's decision to accept a great number of refugees at that point in the European immigration crisis. The murderer turned out to be a German born boy. He had nothing to do with the immigrants, even though the rhetoric blaming them had said that no German could do such a thing. Recently, even though the murderer was a native German, the woman had to clean anti-Muslim graffiti off of her daughter's gravestone. The internet implanted meme was that deeply buried within the mind of the populace that even the public display of the truth was not enough to counter it.

Another such story comes from Mexico. I believe I related this on some other thread. Two men came into this small Mexican town one day to buy building supplies. They were from outside, in the countryside. They had been working on a house remodel, I think, and run out of materials. On their way to the building supply business they were accosted by a mob. An internet rumor had been going around that a child had been raped and killed, or Satanically sacrificed, something like that. Anyway, it got around on Instagram and Whatever that these two men must be the perpetrators. No child had anything done to it. That was all an internet based fiction born in the mind of people who live to make such things up. The trouble was that the people accepted the story, hook, line and sinker. The mob burned the two men alive right in front of the police station.

These are the kinds of things we most have to fear when we live in a society which is so derivative of others who pull all of the strings. We are used to accepting the philosophies that compose our way of thinking from others. We are used to getting along because we don't see our way to the top. We have an understanding of the top, but we don't think we can be part of it. I don't see a civil war in the cards for America. I see a whole bunch of people who become ever increasingly marginalized, and do nothing about it. They may ironically lash out from time to time, in ways that actually point out the people's actual lack of control. A mass populace needs certain forms of unification through which it acts in order to exercise control. America is lacking in that for various reasons.

There is a huge infrastructure crisis looming on the horizon, as electric cars begin to point out how inadequate our infrastructure is. Many investors are thinking that the country will go all electric within a decade or two. Well, along the way we will have to answer the problem of how we are going to charge all of those electric cars, when we don't have the infrastructure to do so. There will be a period where the answer to that is hybrids, which are charged by being driven around while powered by gasoline. Eventually, though, we will have to decide what kind of infrastructure we want. The hybrids will only be a stop gap answer, although one which an indecisive public can prolong. At some point, it will be up to average Americans to decide what they want. It will be at that time that they will have a chance to regain what you might call collective independence, by actually sorting out various plans and picking one. The resulting unification may empower one and all.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 14:01:34

Evil,

I agree with a lot, but I think you miss a step. Yes the internet, or propaganda, gives the crowds something to form around. It the fact is that they form. There is potential energy in hate and blame.

Read up on the French Revolution, inflamed mobs led by opportunistic leaders. That’s what I see except not in just one city but in several. With no effective coordination between them.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 14:52:12

Helicopters have to land and refuel. The internet can be used to coordinate between cities.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 17:25:05

In the 18 years we have been in Afghanistan we have not wiped out the Taliban. They are as strong as they were when we invaded. US forces can somewhat control cities but the countryside belongs to the Taliban.

There are not enough bombs, tanks, troops or planes to subjugate a country the size of America. We can't even do it to a country like Afghanistan with much more liberal rules of engagement. Am I supposed to believe that American armed forces are going to bomb American cities? That is where the left lives in large numbers.

The American military won't be a factor in what I think is coming. They might have some involvement in whatever government is considered legitimate.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:29:28

vtsnowedin wrote:Helicopters have to land and refuel. The internet can be used to coordinate between cities.


They are very different cultural groups. They will hate each other as much as they hate us. Ergo, no coordination.

IF IF IF I understand you post. The first sentence? Effing clueless.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:31:43

Well I’m completly lost on this thread.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:36:26

Newfie wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Helicopters have to land and refuel. The internet can be used to coordinate between cities.


They are very different cultural groups. They will hate each other as much as they hate us. Ergo, no coordination.

IF IF IF I understand you post. The first sentence? Effing clueless.

Not following your line of thought. Every city in America already has a branch of MS-13 and their culture and leadership is centralized.
As to my first sentence you have to consider the supply lines needed to support the US military in modern warfare. Attacking the helicopters and tanks is suicide but the supply lines are vulnerable.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Cog » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:46:53

Newfie wrote:Well I’m completly lost on this thread.


We are discussing the opening struggle between a future communist state and a current constitutional republic. Just think Newfie, few people live to see such a thing in their lifetime.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:50:24

Newfie, there are discussions with real people, face to face, about this topic. And then there is the internet. A little advice. Don't waste much time here....
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:52:35

Cog,

And if I’m lucky I won’t be one of them.

BTW, I think your outta your mind, not that it matters, just saying!

Just spent 1-1/2 hours trying to figure out how to “top up” my Dominican SIM card. That’s as much conflict as I can handle. But I get to take a 7 hour hike to the world’s second largest boiling lake, a real caldron.
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Re: The coming Civil War

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 19:54:23

Ibon,

Spent waaaay to much time last week “discussing” AWG with a bunch of deniers on-line. I think I’ll stick my head in the caldron, it will feel calming.
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