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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby GHung » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 13:00:33

asg70 wrote: ........ The ICE 4WD is implemented via the axle which is an approach EVs don't use (presumably due to needing room underneath for the battery pack). .......


It's because it's much simpler to use the separate motors and controlled braking, via software, for traction control.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 13:24:24

Well, it's possible for Tesla to fail and EVs to just march onward regardless.


I'm with you on that view. I've been looking around at the various electric SUV's to see how they stack up to their ICE counterparts. The RR models are pretty bang on, you pay a bit of a premium for the plug in hybrid design but otherwise identical to the standard RR although no idea about long term performance as they are new. The Audi is also pretty close. Having AWD or 4WD was something essential to me given we don't live in town, get tons of snow in the winter. The limiting factor now is the charging issue. Would require a rewire of the garage which likely isn't a big problem but also there are almost no recharging stations anywhere near us. You could probably plan a longer trip from station to station but they are pretty widespread right now and that becomes a bigger problem at -30 C which we've seen a bit of recently. I suspect this will all change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 13:35:09

Here in San Jose an enterprising company is selling chargers that do not require wiring. However the laundry (at least the electric dryer) must be in the garage, which is standard on most small California homes. Hang the charger on the wall next to the dryer, plug the charger into the dryer receptacle, then the dryer and car charge cables into the new unit. The only limitation is you cannot fast-charge the car and run the dryer at the same time.

As for electric off-road performance, we have had BEV off-road vehicles at Moab UT every year for 3+ years. In spite of the hype, they are way short in performance compared to the ICE counterparts. No reason that a BEV AWD could not compete with an ICE SUV (such as that plush RR just mentioned) with no low range that uses 4WD High Range on paved and unpaved roads, but also note that for a vehicle with low range gearing and in terrain that requires "crawling", the traditional ICE vehicles offer better performance, range, and durability. Not to say it can't be done, but it hasn't been done yet.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 21:49:44

KaiserJeep wrote:.......
.........

As for electric off-road performance, we have had BEV off-road vehicles at Moab UT every year for 3+ years. In spite of the hype, they are way short in performance compared to the ICE counterparts. No reason that a BEV AWD could not compete with an ICE SUV (such as that plush RR just mentioned) with no low range that uses 4WD High Range on paved and unpaved roads, but also note that for a vehicle with low range gearing and in terrain that requires "crawling", the traditional ICE vehicles offer better performance, range, and durability. Not to say it can't be done, but it hasn't been done yet.

My first thought on that would be to couple one electric drive motor to a more traditional drive line with a transmission to allow the motor to turn at efficient rpms while delivering low speed torque for crawling.
Same idea might also apply when they get around to designing electric ag tractors etc.
But rock crawling SUVs are not what the majority of people need. (might be what they want, but not what they need). Let the industry replace the majority of commuter cars with one occupant first then worry about the fringe uses.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 02:06:41

An axle is nothing but extra mass to turn and eats up space that would normally be where the battery pack goes. I'll be surprised if there is EVER an EV with an axle. It makes sense in a gas car where all the complexity is happening in the motor but using multiple motors is pretty simple with an EV.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 02:56:28

Tesla vehicles have two axles and either one motor (RWD) or two motors (AWD). The axles perform functions involving the suspension, traction control, and differential action. A 4WD/AWD version with four motors is possible but most such designs are two motor, two axle. (I am using the term "axle" to include both solid axles (as in a Jeep Wrangler) and independant suspensions with differentials like Jeep Cherokee and other 4WD vehicles have at one or both ends.)

The highest performing electric AWD at Moab UT last year involved one electric motor that drove a hydraulic pump, and four hydraulic motors, one per wheel. It was a great performer right up until it puked hydraulic fluid all over the rocks. It WAS NOT road legal. The requirements for reliable road performance, offroad performance, and extreme terrain (i.e. Moab) are different requirements. In fact the electric or BEV versions are heavier than Jeeps of similar class, which stresses powertrains and suspensions. Heck, Jeeps are already the performance kings of Moab, and Fords, Chevy's, Toyota's etc. are lesser performers. The very best vehicles in such terrain are specialized tubeframe rigs:
Image
....of course, these cannot be driven on public roads as they do not meet DOT standards. Jeeps can be driven on the road and also do this:
Image
...or even drag special offroad trailers on the less extreme trails.
Image

My Jeep drives from California to Utah on the highway, then goes offroad in extreme terrain that humbles just about every other brand of 4WD, then drives home on the road again. It does this carrying a heavy load of camping gear, spare parts, recovery gear, food, chilled beer, etc.

YES, it is a specialized and extreme requirement. But for some of us, as they say also the most fun you can have with your clothes on.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 05:33:47

KJ wrote:
The highest performing electric AWD at Moab UT last year involved one electric motor that drove a hydraulic pump, and four hydraulic motors, one per wheel.

That is similar to many construction machines today. The diesel engine turns a large hydrolic pump that runs everything else from boom pistons to drive motors. It would not be hard to switch out the Diesel for an electric motor leaving the rest of the design in place. And yes burst hoses are a regular occurrence on older machines (and ones with rough operators such as myself).
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 12:30:19

KaiserJeep wrote:YES, it is a specialized and extreme requirement. But for some of us, as they say also the most fun you can have with your clothes on.


Specialized equipment indeed. But it doesn't provide quite the adrenaline hit that some of us need.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 14:03:17

Electric motorcycles are now widely available, they have faster acceleration than their ICE counterparts and if you want the feel of riding a big ICE engined bike then just fit a vibrator under the seat!
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 19 Feb 2019, 14:04:07

dolanbaker wrote:Electric motorcycles are now widely available, they have faster acceleration than their ICE counterparts and if you want the feel of riding a big ICE engined bike then just fit a vibrator under the seat!

OTOH, with Harley's first effort at a BEV motorcycle coming in at just under $30,000 with a roughly 100 mile range in the city (less on the highway, bad weather, etc) -- the value proposition reminds me of e-bikes (i.e. horrific). Either makers will have to do a HELL of a lot better, or I don't see that switch-over coming any time soon for the vast majority of riders.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 21 Feb 2019, 21:29:33

Tesla Motors is bankrupt. The stock hasn't gone up in years. Ford will never offer ONLY an electric F-150 because they would go instantly broke like TSLA.

Driving around in bankrupt cities with EV's is beyond retarded. The entire EV Religion is no different than Jim Jones Peoples Temple of carving our wooden structures in the jungle. Both rackets were a delusion that oil money was not necessary. When the oil money funelling into the Peoples Temple stopped, the cyanide koolaid was passed around.

The same will happen with the EV Scam.

Imagine, Elon Musk going back in time to the cave people and showing them a solar panel and powerwall battery and demanding they give up their fire material because the smoke was ruining the earth. Some cavewoman would have come behind him and knocked him on the head with a club.

Baha is a deindustrializing looter shutting down power stations that will trigger total collapse. Imagine 5000 Saigan '75's going on at the same time but nowhere to go. You're all doomed to BUZZARD MEAT within 5 years in the Oil Apocalypse.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 22 Feb 2019, 03:48:23

StarvingLion wrote:You're all doomed to BUZZARD MEAT within 5 years in the Oil Apocalypse.


Is that...a prediction? Care to flesh that one out so I can call you on it later?

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 23 Feb 2019, 18:30:35

New refillable batteries could fuel an electric car revolution


https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/amp/ncna974556

Like the lithium-ion batteries that power most electric vehicles on the road today, flow batteries release energy through chemical reactions between the ends of the battery and a substance known as electrolyte. In a lithium-ion battery, the electrolyte sits between the ends of the battery; when it’s depleted, it has to be recharged. In a flow battery, the electrolyte is pumped from a tank through the battery; when it’s depleted, it can simply be swapped out for a fresh batch.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 02:45:17

Flow batteries ARE cool but they never seem to make it out of the lab or industrial stationary storage. Definitely worth following but they seem now like a long-shot.

BTW, as far as vaporware cars go, the Quant 48Volt is quite a looker.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 24 Feb 2019, 23:52:57

asg70 wrote:
StarvingLion wrote:You're all doomed to BUZZARD MEAT within 5 years in the Oil Apocalypse.


Is that...a prediction? Care to flesh that one out so I can call you on it later?

He just says the same stuff periodically. No meaningful citations, just ranting. His timeframe is always about 5 years. Just his flavor of FUD about doom.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 25 Feb 2019, 00:02:07

asg70 wrote:Flow batteries ARE cool but they never seem to make it out of the lab or industrial stationary storage. Definitely worth following but they seem now like a long-shot.

BTW, as far as vaporware cars go, the Quant 48Volt is quite a looker.


So even if this works, it might be nice for travelers, who could "recharge" as easily as one gets fuel today. But then, what if differences from station to station mess the battery up or shorten its life?

This might work, in theory, but like the solid state battery, which is in the labs, it will need to work very WELL and very RELIABLY, and at reasonable cost and convenience, or it's not for the masses. For something like that to be economically competitive, I suspect it MUST be for the masses.

It reminds me a bit of the theory of replacement battery packs Tesla touted at one point. Lots of "what if something goes wrong?" questions arise (given how expensive large BEV batteries are) -- UNLESS it's ubiquitous. Well, there's a hell of a lot of scale between the lab and ubiquitous.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 26 Feb 2019, 08:23:43

baha wrote:I've been feeling neglected...Lucyblue has over 5000 miles on her and she hasn't asked me for anything but go juice (kWhrs). ....
........
There's a really cute AI in there somewhere. I hope she knows how much I love her. :roll:

Well not too far in the future you will be able to accessorize your EV with a robot chauffeur of your desired gender that will both drive the car and entertain you in ways that used to get you arrested. :) They might make her a excellent conversationalist as well.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 02 Mar 2019, 17:10:53

I just came across the Rivian electric pickup that you can pre order for a planned 2020 production start. $69K is a bit steep for me but high end pickups already go for that or more. The only model they show is a four door which I wouldn't want as I like a bed that will hold whole sheets of plywood etc. Maybe in a few years when they have more configurations and a proven track record.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 07 Mar 2019, 12:52:43

baha wrote:If main stream manufacturers think they are going to sell EVs they better get with installing chargers ASAP. Only Tesla's are able to reliably take a road trip. This is long term planning...

Glad you had a nice trip, and that worked out for you. Tesla may now have faster superchargers out in the next year or so. I think it's very smart not to push it on the battery re the 95% max charge plans. Why take chances if you don't need to?

Of course, if you'd driven, say a modern midsized HEV, you could get there on 7 gallons of gas without stopping. And within a couple of years, with plans like those of VW's Electrify America are fulfilled, there will be lots of public chargers for the competitors, at rates at or below those Tesla charges for "normal" supercharger usage.

Don't worry about the competition. It's coming at an accelerating rate.

I still think it will be VERY interesting to see when Tesla starts making a profit again with its lower priced mix of cars (Musk says Q1'19 will be a loss), given all the capital it needs for the various commitments in the works. But still, I don't go along with all the shorts who claim bankruptcy is in the offing short term -- I think it's really a question of Tesla's growth rates in the face of the competition ramping up.

And that's why I think Tesla really needs to FOCUS on quality and service -- because reputation is going to matter very much when there are a whole lot of models from a number of quality manufacturers to choose from.

So it's a horse race -- and THAT is very good for consumers. :)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 30 Mar 2019, 07:36:55

baha wrote:If main stream manufacturers think they are going to sell EVs they better get with installing chargers ASAP. Only Tesla's are able to reliably take a road trip. This is long term planning...
Don't forget that in the US there are an average of 2 cars per household. That means a 2 car household can have an ICE vehicle for road trips and an EV for a commuter vehicle. Currently with only about 1% of cars sold in the US being EVs there is not much incentive for a massive rollout of chargers. However if this number were to increase to a much larger percent there would be more incentive for a larger rollout of chargers.
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