Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 18:19:51

shortonoil wrote:hi Ibon,
"The American chestnut is gone,"

On my property in WVa I have 3 American Chestnut trees growing. U WVa come along every few months and do a rain dance around them, or say a prayer (or something). In time those magnificent forests will return. Otherwise, what you say is true.

PS: My grandfather cut the beam used as the keel for the last wooden icebreaker build by the the US Navy. It was a beam 24" x 24" by 67 feet long. It came from a Chestnut tree.


That is good news. The final verdict on the fate of this majestic species may not yet have been written. A tiny fraction may have developed resistance to the asian blight that wiped out this once abundant species. Not only abundant but also keystone in the vital role the chestnut played in the ecology of eastern forests. The mast of synchronized nut production was key in supporting countless species. Perhaps indeed one day this species will regain its former grandeur.

Which is just a testimonial of what I have been posting. An invasive blight can wipe out 99.9% of a species and yet it still holds on in tiny numbers, those few refuge trees that either through immunity or luck carry forth.

Never underestimate the resilience of natural ecosystems.

The most vulnerable species on the planet today? Homo sapiens.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7010
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 18:49:59

That's a curious comment, Ibon. I personally would say that humans are the least vulnerable. Certainly they have adapted to and occupy the widest range of habitats. From the poles to the equator, on and under the sea and the land, and even in space.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5970
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:20:42

Ibon,

Have you ever considered that humanity is the ultimate invasive species?

I recall reading about lethal parasites, think virus’ and bacteria. The successful ones evolve to kill more slowly, to be less lethal. If they are too lethal then they wipe out the host population and in doing so kill themselves.

Humanity is a parasite upon Earth. I see no reason to believe we are evolving to become less lethal to our host. It’s hardly surprising, such evolution would normall require the demise of many hosts and the survival of a few for the trait to develop. In our case we have a single host, Earth. No redo’s allowed. Kinda stuffs evolution.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12335
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby efarmer » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:56:07

I love Ibon's coffee bean analogy. So perhaps we human beans will lose a few out of our
sacks to reseed the planet if or when such events manifest. I also enjoyed the one talking
about the chaff being expendable and the wheat surviving. Whenever I think about these
things, I always consider myself to be the wheat as well, most probably as the end piece
on a loaf of bread, nobody wants to eat it, and it has all that fabulous crust and does not
pierce as easy when the peanut butter is slathered on.
User avatar
efarmer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri 17 Mar 2006, 03:00:00

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:59:08

Ibon...it's still early days.

Just because some species (especially introduces, invasive ones, for X's sake) still find it possible to find niches, doesn't mean that this will be the case for most going forward. That invasive species are so hard to take out, in the short term is actually a death sentence for many native species.

But then maybe, having merely book learning and not much field experience, you don't quite realize this yet.

(See, patronizing dismissal can go both ways! :) )
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18043
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 22:40:18

Newfie wrote:Ibon,

Have you ever considered that humanity is the ultimate invasive species?


You haven't read my tag line in a while then?

The current manifestation of humanity is Kudzu Ape, the ultimate invasive species. We weren't though for 98% of the history of our species on the planet

9000 / 40 = 225

225 is the number of generations that have passed since agriculture.

250 / 40 = 7.5

6.5 generations since the Industrial Revolution.

Too novel a situation, to short a time to determine whether humanity is inherently invasive as you suggest or if the current manifestation of Kudzu Ape culture can transition into a more balanced place in the community of life.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7010
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 00:50:36

Other points of view are possible, of course. The desire to promote the health of the planet and a balanced ecology may prove to be contra-survival for humans, for example. It is entirely possible that the true purpose of the planetary ecology is to allow billions of humans to be born and thrive. The present ecological limits and impending collapse of the biosphere may have the sole purpose of forcing humans into space.

It is a viable theory. After all, trillions of humans can exist when not restricted to the surface of a planet. There is an entire asteroid belt of materials for habitat construction and solar power in space is constant and dependable.

The Late, Great Planet Earth: a cradle for the human race. In a few generations, perhaps only the losers are left on the ruined planet.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5970
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby clif » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 02:30:07

KaiserJeep;

if you don't already, you should watch this guys videos;

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZFipe ... Ujx6grh54g

Right up your alley, so to speak.
How cathartic it is to give voice to your fury, to wallow in self-righteousness, in helplessness, in self-serving self-pity.
User avatar
clif
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Tue 11 Aug 2009, 12:04:10

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 07:27:02

Ibon wrote:Too novel a situation, to short a time to determine whether humanity is inherently invasive as you suggest or if the current manifestation of Kudzu Ape culture can transition into a more balanced place in the community of life.


Yes, well that was exactly my point. :-D
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12335
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 15:51:28

Again, all of you are very much thinking "in the box". Just because only one species has made it into space, does not mean that planetary surfaces are the only place to live.

After all, the surface of the Earth is overcrowded with humans, dirty and polluted, and full of competing species. Then there are myriad pests, everything from viruses and bacteria, insects and fungi, to apex predator species who would kill and dine upon unwary Kudzu Apes.

A space habitat is clean and orderly, has only the plants and animals needed to sustain a simplified and managed ecology, and the yield of food crops, atmosphere, water, etc. are continuously monitored for toxins and corrections are made prior to humans being impacted.

I understand that many of you find beauty in untamed wilderness. I share that fondness, in fact. But an Engineer can find pleasure in a system designed and built as a human habitat in space, that works well and the inhabitants construct other habitats as populations increase.

I was once a member of the L5 Society. Last year was the 25th Anniversary of the successor organization, the National Space Society:

https://space.nss.org/
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5970
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 23:03:36

https://condenaststore.com/featured/nev ... ullum.html

(sometimes it's better think inside the box :) )
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18043
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 13 Feb 2019, 06:32:08

KaiserJeep wrote:Again, all of you are very much thinking "in the box". Just because only one species has made it into space, does not mean that planetary surfaces are the only place to live.

After all, the surface of the Earth is overcrowded with humans, dirty and polluted, and full of competing species. Then there are myriad pests, everything from viruses and bacteria, insects and fungi, to apex predator species who would kill and dine upon unwary Kudzu Apes.

A space habitat is clean and orderly, has only the plants and animals needed to sustain a simplified and managed ecology, and the yield of food crops, atmosphere, water, etc. are continuously monitored for toxins and corrections are made prior to humans being impacted.

I understand that many of you find beauty in untamed wilderness. I share that fondness, in fact. But an Engineer can find pleasure in a system designed and built as a human habitat in space, that works well and the inhabitants construct other habitats as populations increase.

I was once a member of the L5 Society. Last year was the 25th Anniversary of the successor organization, the National Space Society:

https://space.nss.org/

There can be plenty of places to live but humans are designed to live on planetary surface.
There are many indications that human life in absence of Earth gravity and magnetosphere protecting from space radiation would either be impossible in long run or at least a very miserable adventure.
There are also concerns about inability of humans to live in close confinement and close proximity from each other.
You are suffering from a sort of engineer bias.
You will recognize what is possible at least in theory from perspective of engineering but forget that the very task you contemplate might fall victim of biological constrains.
Another thing is that we still have huge troubles in maintaing Antarctic habitats (if we don't, already cities would be built there) and these are trivial tasks comparing to space habitats.
I bet that you have thought about Fermi paradox.
My favorite answers are:

1. Life is rare to the extreme, it may well be a *designed* feature and it may even be unique for Earth. Alternatively if it appeared by chance then we might well be alone in our Hubble radius, or:

2. There is a technology reasonably easy to invent, trivial in comparison to interstellar travel, which is causing extermination of inventing civilization, even if it was not meant to be destructive by inventors.
Alternatively in sufficiently advanced civilization it might be easy for a maverick/terrorist to design and produce something capable to exterminate all regardless of instruments of surveilence and oppression available to governments.
Various #permanently simple and incapable of evolution grey goo# scenarios or biological engineering going wrong comes to mind.

3. Interstellar travel is either impossible in a reasonable time scale or planetary resources available to any inhabited planet are insufficient to execute it or sufficient for only few odd attempts at the extreme cost to civillization involved.
Additionally closest worthwhile destination might be millions or billions light years away because terraforming of planets from nearby stellar systems to make them habitable is just a pipe dream.
If we have failed to terraform Mars (what probably will be attempted if our civillization survives and remains a high tech one), there is no reason to believe that we would succeed on one (or few) planets of Trappist 1 system.

There are many other possibilities, which I consider much less likely.
In case of 1. - there is a chance for space invasion. In case of 2 or 3 - I don't see it.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5279
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 15 Feb 2019, 10:34:29

Sometimes comics say it better than anything else:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -the-world
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18043
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 15 Feb 2019, 11:20:40

As we have managed to overpopulate, trash and are in the process of changing favorable life conditions on this planet to unfavorable ones to most current forms of life, excuse me for not being optimistic about our chances out there in very inhospitable SPACE.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10379
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 15 Feb 2019, 19:17:16

'We have death and devastation at every turn': the flood massacre of Queensland cattle

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... and-cattle

Cattle farmer Jodi Keough told Seven News she expected to lose half her herd, adding that if authorities do nothing "we're talking about a possible collapse of a primary industry in Australia."
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18043
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 12:35:11

dohboi wrote:Sometimes comics say it better than anything else:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -the-world


Thanks. On BOTH links
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12335
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 14:29:24

dohboi wrote:[b]'
Cattle farmer Jodi Keough told Seven News she expected to lose half her herd, adding that if authorities do nothing "we're talking about a possible collapse of a primary industry in Australia."


Again, a possible collapse.....possible is still a maybe..

In these times a possible, an eminant, a likely, a maybe, a threatening, weakening, bla bla bla.

A couple hundred cows die in a flood and a whole industry is THREATENED with collapse.

insects dying off in a couple of countries due to intensive agriculture and suddenly the world is faced with the POSSIBILITY of a 40% decline in insect diversity..

all these maybes add up to one big giant Yawn to the public at large.

It's not an emergency until it hurts.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7010
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 14:33:03

45 years since the Silent Spring we have been exposed to threats of cascading collapses, one after another.....and still nothing has shaken the juggernaut of Kudzu Ape.

No action will happen until it hurts
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7010
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 14:35:22

And then what action will be taken? Im betting it will be to blame the “other” guy and attack to take his resources?
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12335
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 Feb 2019, 14:48:01

They're are NO solutions. Increasingly what Ibon has said that consequences will be the solution appears likely. The sooner the better given our tremendous negative impact on Ecosystems and web of life on this planet
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10379
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests