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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 10 Feb 2019, 23:11:10

KaiserJeep wrote:the last Glaciation peaked 21,500 years ago when there was so much ice that sea levels were 120m lower than today. Since then we have been in a warming trend, as we approach the Climatic Optimum.


Actually we passed the climatic optimum thousands of years ago.

KaiserJeep wrote: the Climatic Optimum will occur in 1200 years or so, if the average holds.


The timing of the Climatic Optimum isn't something that occurs halfway through an interglacial. It is controlled by the timing of the insolation maximum dictated by earth's orbital mechanics. The most recent insolation maximum occurred 8-11,000 years ago.

KaiserJeep wrote:Check, things are warmer on the surface of the planet. But the Earth-facing satellite temperature data is only about 35 years old, and shows a cooling trend.


Thats nice. But of course continued warming on the surface of the planet, where you and I and all the other people on the planet actually live, is what we should be concerned about.

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby kiwichick » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 06:03:00

Thanks Plant

I think you covered that very well
.....even my 3 yr old grand daughter could follow that
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 08:10:01

The cooling trend in the satellite data that KJ is talking about (unless he's just making it up) is in the stratosphere. And such a trend fits perfectly with GW from greenhouse gasses, and does not fit well with warming from greater insolation.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Vermillion2 » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 15:32:33

vtsnowedin wrote:
Vermillion2 wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:
Good point, dis. I hadn't thought about that. The fossil-death-fuel industry really does stand out as the greatest slime in the history of slime.


says the man who doesn't have a problem with all the benefits he's been provided by fossil fuels....clothes, food, transportation, shelter and a job. But let's not let reality get in the way of some good old virtue signaling. :roll:


Everybody had all that before fossil fuels.

No before fossil fuels something less then one billion were striving to get that and many failed. Today seven billion are working toward the goal and without fossil fuel we would soon go back to just one billion.



Imagine being this retarded. Humans had shoes, clothes, food, jobs, transportation, etc before fossil fuels.
Does this idgit really believe that all of human culture didn't exist before fossil fuels? :lol:




Do you wear clothes that you hand spun the material from plant/animal sources you collected yourself? Answer is almost certainly no

Do you live in a shelter you built with hand tools from materials that you could collect with nothing more than rudimentary hand tools? Answer is almost certainly no

Do you eat only meat you have killed yourself using weapons such as a spear with a flint blade, arrows with flint and feathers from birds you have caught yourself etc? Answer is almost certainly no.

Do you never, ever take transport of any kind (whether that be car, truck, bus or even bicycle) but walk everywhere? Answer is almost certainly no.



Our ancestors did all of this before fossil fuels. The transportation was the chariot or wagon. They built them by their own hands with simple knives, chisels and pole lathes.

Celtic Wagon 2500 years old
https://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/4 ... 1485681827

Iron Age Thracian wagon


https://img.purch.com/w/660/aHR0cDovL3d ... JpYWwuanBn



Some people even made them without metal components:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_River_cart
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 16:38:59

Our ancestors did all of this before fossil fuels. The transportation was the chariot or wagon. They built them by their own hands with simple knives, chisels and pole lathes.


are you that big of an idiot? Of course man had things before the industrial revolution but they did not have the high tech clothes you wear, they did not motorized transport, they did not have bicycles, they did not have honed steel implements, they did not have the equipment for large agricultural development, they did not have the equipment necessary to do the required research and required manufacturing for all the pharmaceuticals that have made your life and your forebearers survivable. In fact, if you weren't one of the elite you almost certainly had no education and lived hand to mouth. If you got sick your chances of survival were not good, your lifespan was somewhere close to half of what it is now. Without oil and gas development you would not be sitting there with a smug look on your face posting to the internet unless you think you could accomplish that with wood and copper tools. :roll:

Now if you and Dohboi want to go back to that sort of subsidence living you are more than welcome to do so. But don't be complaining about oil and gas companies when in fact your life has benefited immensely from the products they have provided.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Vermillion2 » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 17:33:15

rockdoc123 wrote:
Our ancestors did all of this before fossil fuels. The transportation was the chariot or wagon. They built them by their own hands with simple knives, chisels and pole lathes.


are you that big of an idiot? Of course man had things before the industrial revolution but they did not have the high tech clothes you wear,


Right, they had superior clothes made of wool, linen, fur or silk. Modern clothing today is like paper towels made of inferior materials, doesn't keep you warm or cool effectively, holds on to bacteria more than any natural fabric and rots faster, cannot withstand UV radiation, is dyed with ugly, lower-quality synthetic pigments, etc.


they did not motorized transport, they did not have bicycles, they did not have honed steel implements,



...And yet they still crossed continents on foot or wheels to get where they needed to go. They didn't need honed steel to leave behind all those bridges, temples and monuments they left behind.


they did not have the equipment for large agricultural development, they did not have the equipment necessary to do the required research and required manufacturing for all the pharmaceuticals that have made your life and your forebearers survivable.


Obviously they got enough agriculture done to stay alive. A lot of our ancestors ate a better diet of abundant fish catches made with igenious weirs, and milk production. No petroleum necessary.

I survived just fine without pharmaceuticals and those who don't probably need to be allowed to die. We're seeing around the board increases in allergies, immunosuppresion, lowering intelligence and sexual dimorphism -- probably due to dysgenic trends enabled by modern medicine.



In fact, if you weren't one of the elite you almost certainly had no education and lived hand to mouth. If you got sick your chances of survival were not good, your lifespan was somewhere close to half of what it is now.


If you made it past childhood life was pretty much the same as it is now.


Without oil and gas development you would not be sitting there with a smug look on your face posting to the internet unless you think you could accomplish that with wood and copper tools. :roll:


My ancestors already did that. In what alternate reality are you living in, where everyone was incompetent before they started burning fossil fuels? Everyone on this board had ancestors who made wagons with copper tools, wore beautiful and dignified clothing, ate a better diet of fresh seafood and animal meat, and were probably more intelligent than most living post-industrial people. They had better teeth, better bones, stronger bodies and bigger brains, as well.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby clif » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 17:41:05

they did not have honed steel implements


this is in dispute, because some of the newer ideas about how the Greeks and Romans made some of their implements suggest they could make honed steel in small batches for producing cutting edge tools for cutting brass etc,

no they could not mass produce steel like the modern era could,however the ability to make and harden steel doesn't require modern mass production tech.

Much like the idea and ability to make concrete was lost when the technology of Rome was lost after the Christian takeover of the empire, and the decline of the tech they used, so probably was this tech.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 18:43:28

Crucible steel was produced in China as early as the 3rd Century BC. The steel was then traded along the Silk Road caravan route. Blades made from crucible steel were thus so expensive and rare that they were for the most part owned by European Kings. The Romans may have had a few of these, but the majority of Roman blades are Bronze. A few steel blades were found in Viking tombs, probably plundered from Europe.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 19:03:42

My ancestors already did that. In what alternate reality are you living in, where everyone was incompetent before they started burning fossil fuels? Everyone on this board had ancestors who made wagons with copper tools, wore beautiful and dignified clothing, ate a better diet of fresh seafood and animal meat, and were probably more intelligent than most living post-industrial people. They had better teeth, better bones, stronger bodies and bigger brains, as well.


Obviously you are illiterate...what I said was
you would not be sitting there with a smug look on your face posting to the internet unless you think you could accomplish that with wood and copper tools

so your ancestors made computers and coax cable without fossil fuels did they?

You are obviously living in a freaking fantasy world...if they were so much better off why was live expectancy 30 to 40 years? Bigger brains? Bigger than yours apparently.

As I said if you want to go back to "dressing better and eating better" then have at it...just don't come whining to the rest of us when you need something that is only in place because of oil and gas. Don't expect to send us an email either as that computer that you've been busy clicking away on came to you courtesy of the oil and gas industry.

If you made it past childhood life was pretty much the same as it is now.


yeah right....how many people back then working themselves to death on the land would just take a few weeks off for a vacation? Hop on a plane and hit a beach somewhere...knock back with a mai tai? How often did they get to take a "personal day" off from work? How about that visit to the dentist for the bi-yearly cleaning or the massage therapist to sort out that knee problem you got while skiing in the Alps? Jesus wept. :roll:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Vermillion2 » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 19:53:10

This is hysterical. I disproved everything you said and now you're just sticking to your "you wouldn't be here complaining if it weren't for fossil fuels" trope, because you're a pissed off idiot who digs holes for a living. Yes, human brain sizes have been decreasing since the stone age. Humans are also losing intelligence by the decade; there are two competing hypotheses as to why and for how long this has been measurable:

https://www.euronews.com/2017/12/29/the ... esearchers


https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/lif ... 678739.cms

It makes perfect sense for me to use a computer to spread info about the hideousness of the current era, just as Afghan rebels use foraged US artillery shells to create bombs which cost the US a lot of money.

And make no mistake: working yourself to death is something that started with fossil fuels. Only offshoring created an environment in the USA that led to the sanitized environment me we live in. Even slaves had a better quality of life in the 1700s Pennsylvania, than 1800s Pennsylvania coal miners. Maybe some slaves of enemy tribes were "worked to death" in the ancient past. Regular people? No way.



There can be no doubt that fossil fuels have been the #1 cause of negativity and uselessness on this planet. Putting an end to the carbon way of life is a top priority.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby dissident » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:20:54

roc-twit is the resident broken record climate change denier who never accepts any facts that contradict his BS agenda. You have managed to get under his skin and expose one of the nut-job pillars of his world-view. A freaking oil cultist. What a joke.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:29:12

This is hysterical. I disproved everything you said a


You must be joking....you disproved nothing said. You changed the subject.

Simple yes or no answers:

- did people have advantage of long distance and intercontinental travel in short time frames prior to oil and gas developments
-did people live long lives on average prior to oil and gas developments
- was there ready access to health care and new pharmaceuticals prior to oil and gas developments
- was there less poverty and hunger per capita prior to oil and gas developments
- do you wear clothes that were made possible by oil and gas developments (this includes wool as the farmers use petrol in their tractors, shearing machines and nobody hand spins fabric these days)
-do you walk everywhere (because every other mode of transportation was made possible by oil and gas developments)

because you're a pissed off idiot who digs holes for a living.


Hello? I've been retired for dogs years....never dug a hole in my life except once when I put up a fence in our backyard some 30 years ago.

Humans are also losing intelligence by the decade;


Right .....please show us that Albert Einstein, Nicola Tesla, Werner Von Braun, Kurt Goedel, Thomas Edison, Steve Jobs, Stephen Hawking didn't have the intellect of anyone born in pre-industrial society or that average literacy rates haven't doubled since pre-industrial times :roll:

It makes perfect sense for me to use a computer to spread info about the hideousness of the current era, just as Afghan rebels use foraged US artillery shells to create bombs which cost the US a lot of money.


Sorry it is simply that you are a hypocrite. You have no problem taking advantage of all the advances in technology made possible by the very industry you seek to denigrate.

There can be no doubt that fossil fuels have been the #1 cause of negativity and uselessness on this planet. Putting an end to the carbon way of life is a top priority.


And your welcome to preach that position...just don't do it while taking advantage of all the advances made possible by oil and gas. (see cartoon posted above).

oc-twit is the resident broken record climate change denier who never accepts any facts that contradict his BS agenda. You have managed to get under his skin and expose one of the nut-job pillars of his world-view. A freaking oil cultist. What a joke.


And you are the fake climate scientist who posts all sorts of nonsense but never addresses any of it when called out. Perhaps you can explain to us how oil and gas developments never improved the world for anybody? Perhaps you know some way of running a complex climate ensemble without a computer? This out to be good. Moron.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:31:44

Who here has an organic iPhone or laptop?
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 20:53:43

Verm, welcome to the asylum...you are already discovering that most of the inmates are insane, I see. That shouldn't be too surprising, really.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Feb 2019, 22:04:00

KaiserJeep wrote: A few steel blades were found in Viking tombs, probably plundered from Europe.

The Viking age was from 789 to 1066 For England, slightly different dates elsewhere.
They imported some steel from France and Germany but made much of their own from bog iron.
Edit to add.
The iron age itself was much older starting about 1200 BC with the Hittites in what is now Turkey.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 07:32:25

V2,

Cool your rhetoric, especially the name calling.

Try to keep to the topic at hand and present your opinions in the best manner you can.

The way you approach argument will convince no one of your position.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby clif » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 11:32:06

-do you walk everywhere (because every other mode of transportation was made possible by oil and gas developments)


Ever hear of horses?????

Sailing Ships?????

Original steam power used wood......
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 14:55:59

Ever hear of horses?????

Sailing Ships?????

Original steam power used wood......


OK, your welcome to use those as long as the leather saddle was made by hand and not in a factory, the ship is a wood sailing ship hand crafted with no petroleum-based waterproofing or sealants and the sails were made from canvas hand spun and stitched and all the lines are made of cotton/hemp but not a synthetic and your steam engine was created from steel or iron that was somehow hand smelted using no products made possible by oil and gas endeavours.

My whole point here is it seems ridiculous for some to argue that the oil and gas companies have caused a huge problem, it is all their fault while at the same time having no problem taking advantage of the great lifestyle that the consumption of hydrocarbons has provided. The oil and gas companies were not forcing you to buy all that stuff... you wanted it so they made it possible. And apparently you still want it but at the same time want to blame all the worlds ills on the group who provides it for you.

There are two choices here...either stop consuming anything that has been made possible by oil and gas production and get rid of everything you currently have that is similar and return to a pre-industrial existence or take the view that ..."thank God the oil and gas companies provided this great lifestyle we now have.....it won't last forever so we need alternatives and lets make considerable effort in making those alternatives happen, gradually reducing our need for hydrocarbons".
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 15:43:33

Roc,

I think Cliff was trying to assist you with the argument. His point is that not all progress is based on there fossil fuel industry.

V2 has a point, if roughly put, that our industrial development has led to us being a pox on the environment. My disagreement, if we have one, is that I don’t blame fossil fuels or even humanity for that matter. Humanity struggled for a long time to survive, was designed by nature to find a way to survive and then found a tremendous energy source. Humans did not rationally decide to ruin the eco systems, that they did is because of the circumstances between our evolutionary progress and available resources.

How this mess will work out is anyone’s guess, my guess is “not well.”
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 21

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 12 Feb 2019, 15:58:54

V2,

It’s clear you are angry about the statemfo the Earth and it seems you need someone, something to blame. What you express is obviously very clear to you, you see no other possible explanation.

Yet other explanations do exist. Let me give you one.

You know the saying “nature abhors a vacume”? Well if something like that, nature abhors concentrations of order, of energy. Nature wants to create the lowest possible energy state, the least order possible. It’s called entropy. So there is a continuous erosion of from order/high energy to disorder/low energy.

Now in the process of Earth evolving there were some pockets of high order/low energy that were resistant to this errossion. So humans were evolved with the ability to get at those stores of energy to aid in the process of creating maximum entropy. Just as termites were evolved to eat wood and reduce it to a lower energy/organization level. We don’t “blame” termites for what they do, it’s what they were designed to do, by Nature. Same with humans, it’s our purpose in life.

Now I’m not going to argue that this above theory is absolutely the one and only possible truth. That would be silly. There are other, additional ways of looking at this mess we are in. Some simply say “It’s Gods will” and leave it at that.

I don’t think it’s possible for us to know what the “right” answer is, or even if it’s important to know. Likewise it’s not important to assign blame. When you focus on blame you are looking backward, it’s a reactionary posture. It does little to help you avoid tomorrows mistakes. And really that’s all we can strive to do is to do better today and tomorrow.

Turn to the future, here we are now, what do we do next?
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