[radon1]

It often requires various fixes, etc. for various websites, for example.

No, it doesn't. Certainly not with websites. Don't know where you get this from. It probably works better with websites than windows, as web-surfing is mostly chromium based currently, and entire chrome (read google) community have linux as their workplace system. Plus 90% of web servers are actually running linux.

And solid linux distributions are actually much easier to install than windows. It is like 1.5-2 gb download and it takes about 15-30 minutes to install them. You do not even need to install them in order to run them, you can put them on USB or another external carrier and run them from there, to have a look or even for everyday use. Have a go and try for yourself. The only problem with this method is that windows prevents booting from externals unless you temporarily change windows' own boot options.

The only problem that you might have with linux is running windows' native progs, but nowadays you can run them from steam even if they are not games, with a couple of simple tweaks. In a matter of months even the need for tweaks will be gone. And the performance is often better than with windows as windows overhead is heavier than steam's translation layer overhead.

[Outcast_Searcher]

It often requires various fixes, etc. for various websites, for example.

No, it doesn't. Certainly not with websites.

Well, you can say "no it doesn't", and I can say, "Yes it does", but that doesn't accomplish much.

I got my information from a decent number of personal experiences trying to help friends convert to Linux. Who wanted to use specific websites, like brokerage websites. Since I don't know Linux or Xubuntu, and have no desire to become a system programmer for those OS's, they were never able to convert. 100% of the time, as their efforts online, etc. failed too.

You don't seem to get it. What are "simple tweaks" to you aren't things that normal folks who just know how to click icons etc. know how to get into or WANT to get into. It's not that hard a concept.

I've also discussed this with other folks who are ardent Linux fans, and they agreed with me that this is a real world issue with Linux and its variants.

But if you want to go with the usual emotional behavior of "I don't agree with you, so you must be wrong", and that makes you feel better, have at it.

You might make note, by the way, that I stated that for the computer savvy, Linux is a fine choice. Rationality is a thing. Compromise is a thing. Acknowledging data you might wish were otherwise is a thing.

[radon1]

Who wanted to use specific websites

Doesn't seem to make much sense, websites should be system-agnostic. In any event, it is worth to ask for an update from the "ardent fans". Not in relation to "the cutting edge" (which is their jargon for seeking problems for the sake of problems), but about the general state of the things. They have changed quite a lot lately. If you have a laptop, and consider ditching it in favor of a chromebook (which is anyway linux powered if I am not mistaken), then your laptop under linux will do all the things that chromebook does without any issues, plus many things on top of it.

[radon1]

This gentleman gets it done well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOOkfGv58u0

Instructions for try-out are at the end of the video.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Who wanted to use specific websites

Doesn't seem to make much sense, websites should be system-agnostic. In any event, it is worth to ask for an update from the "ardent fans". Not in relation to "the cutting edge" (which is their jargon for seeking problems for the sake of problems), but about the general state of the things. They have changed quite a lot lately. If you have a laptop, and consider ditching it in favor of a chromebook (which is anyway linux powered if I am not mistaken), then your laptop under linux will do all the things that chromebook does without any issues, plus many things on top of it.

Yes, the Chrome OS is based on Linux. The reviews I'm seeing is that the Chrome OS mostly just works for simple things, and I'm attracted to the relatively virus impervious nature of its sandbox based environment for use on the web. They're improving / expanding it too. Now it can run Android apps, and rumors are that they will be officially supporting a dual boot mode for Windows.

I can still run my apps on Windows 7 offline, and sneaker-net files from the Web through Chrome to it for manipulation in Windows 7 I think I'm set for quite a while.

I could use Windows 10 until late 2025, but I'm frankly tired of all Microsoft's nonsense.

[radon1]

In some exotic situations, websites could have had problems with proprietary plugins in the past, such as the flashplayer. At some point, Adobe dropped linux support for it and you'd have to do some command line manipulations to set it up. But later, the support was resumed.

Still, proprietary software cannot be delivered within the default system configuration under an open source (linux) license. But all you need to do is to select the Software Center in the menu, and click on the flashplayer icon in there, and it will be set up for you. This is the same procedure as setting up a chrome app in the google store, but simpler.

In any event, the current trend is to move from flashplayer to html5 (from proprietary to open source), and this is no longer an issue.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I was looking at a thread the other day on Windows 7 going away, and various user opinions, plans, etc.

There were well over 10,000 entries. I read the first several pages.

My impression of the top plans and widespread opinions:

1). Windows 10 sucks and is spyware. Given the self-selective nature of the folks drawn to such a site, this isn't surprising. There were a handful of Windows 10 users saying it is faster than Windows 7 for gaming, and that's what matters to them.

2a). There is a LOT of ignoring the warnings, just using Windows XP, and figuring just going to "safe sites only" is an acceptable solution, because nothing "bad" has happened yet. Similar thoughts for plans for Windows 7.

2b). There is a LOT of assuming that as long as one uses a "good" antivirus / anti-malware program, that it doesn't matter about the OS holes, so there is no issue.

3). There are a lot of people who plan to suck it up and go to Linux. Some commentary on hoping there is going to be far better support / mainstream support for gamers.

4). There are people who don't like it, but plan to suck it up and go to Windows 10 and live with it. And no little to no mention that in another 5+ years, Windows 10 is going away re extended support, just like Windows 7 is Jan 2020, and THEN what?

5). I was surprised that there were very few mentions of Chrome. Maybe for people self-selected to visit such a site, Chrome is an obvious cop-out. Or Chrome is a non-solution because it doesn't offer enough apps. (But does Linux, unless you want to buy everything again, go though some sort of massive doc. conversion process, etc? I don't know, but I have trouble imagining the only issue there is learning Linux and dealing with real world problems / limitations).

6). There were some people touting Apple / IOS, etc, but not as many as I expected. The cost of Apple products, how Apple shuns common cheap interfaces and hardware, and that Apple isn't immune to malware were mentioned.

7). Finally, few people were talking about a hybrid solution of using BOTH an older version (or versions) of Windows COMPLETELY off the net -- AND something safe for browsing and videos, etc. on the net -- with a sneaker-net solution for transferring files. Again, maybe to people visiting such a forum, such a solution is too obvious to mention (?)

[Outcast_Searcher]

This gentleman gets it done well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOOkfGv58u0

Instructions for try-out are at the end of the video.

Thanks for this. If I don't like my planned hybrid solution of Chrome and OLD OS's, and/or using Win 10 on a very limited basis as needed, I'll look into this. I'll probably grab the try-out info and store it, as soon as I'm done with my taxes.

Always nice to have multiple potential solutions to an annoying or persistent problem.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Re Windows 10 issues.

I was doing some more looking around, and research on Windows 10 (in case worse comes to worst).

One thing that dawns on me, is how persistently STUPID / BAD, laptops have become re access to the hardware. I don't know if this is due to Windows 10, or just the cost of hardware and PC makers wanting to maximize profits.

So, in the good old days of a decade or even 5 years ago, it was common to be able to get laptops with easy access to disk drives, memory, etc. WITHOUT having to take the whole laptop apart, be a hardware geek, or live in fear of breaking things or not being able to properly reassemble the da*n thing. Oh, and batteries were often external and very easy to disconnect or replace with a simple physical switch/lever or two.

Not so much any more. Between the service manuals for Dell, HP, Asus, etc, it's normal to make getting to the hard drives, the battery (for crissakes), the memory, etc. require a major disassembly.

There are exceptions, but you really have to look for them, and even with them you generally have to worry about things like breaking a bunch of delicate plastic tabs in addition to removing the easy access screw(s). (Why the hell not just several easy access screws?)

And there are consequences. Generally on Amazon now, Win 10 PC's are supplied by specialized shops. You pick a configuration and they modify the PC for you. This means the manufacturer warranty is violated right away, since they must be opening the case and replacing things like the drives and/or the memory. So what if there are problems? What if they caused them? Oh, and they tend to charge MULTIPLE times what the consumer can buy the components they're using AND no word on the specifics of the components they're using -- so no doubt many are using CHEAP, LOW QUALITY components like drives, SSD's, memory, etc. IMO, NO THANKS on all of that.

And clearly the main makers know this, re their pricing. They know people now want SSD's instead of HDD's, so they are charging a FORTUNE for even small SSD models, vs. large HDD models with exact specs otherwise -- even if the consumer cost of the HDD vs. SSD is negligable. Nice way to maintain profit margins, if you can get away with it.

And now we're clearly entering the world of throw-away loptops. Normal people can't confidently work on such beasts (just like I rarely get under the hood of my car except to check the battery, oil, and radiator, and maybe clean up debris). So laptops are becoming another commodity, throwaway item. Again -- good for profits, bad for the consumer.

I can easily clone any modern windows variant drive whether HDD or SSD, as long as it's a modern SATA variant, with a variety of FREE, reliable software. (They want to sell upgrades, but it's not required, generally). That's GREAT for protecting my data, but sad if I can't deal with a drive failure in the PC except to:

1). Take it to a shop, hope they don't screw up the PC, steal my data, etc. Oh, and get charged a FORTUNE. Oh, and invalidate any manufacturer warranty that might be left.

2). Risk destroying my laptop through mechanical incompetence. Might be preferable to the first option, but far from great.

3). Use older, cheap, hardware that's EASY to work on, and rely on redundancy. That strategy worked great for me with Windows XP, and I'm now playing with it for Windows 7 and Windows 10.

Might sound stupid, but if the hardware works, why not? I've had ONE problem with my six $100ish used Win XP Dell D830 PC's - the DVD/CD combo drive in one quit. But it's SUPER easy to replace. 0 or 1 screw and push a lever, that's it. And I can get TEN of them used on EBAY for $30 to $40 bucks, from sellers with thousands of PC HW sales and feedback ratings of 100%, top sellers, etc. Considering it costs roughly that for a highly rated, quality USB based DVD external drive -- the risk is negligable.

Once I exercise Win 7 and Win 10 on these, I'll report back. I expect Win 7 to be fine. My main concern re Win 10 is they only take 4 Gig memory max.

They're just fantastic for Win XP SP3 for 16 bit legacy gaming.

[Outcast_Searcher]

By the way, for anyone wanting to clone a SATA Windows based drive, I strongly recommend the Mini Tool Partition Wizard product.

It's free, easy to install and use, and reliable in my experience, for SATA based drives. It works for Windows XP, 7, 8 and 10. And it doesn't pester you about upgrading, etc. to where I notice it, once it's installed.

I've used it extensively with Win XP and 7 without any problems that weren't my fault (user error). I've used it a little for Windows 10, and it worked fine for me. I have no experience with Windows 8, so I haven't tested that claim at all.

I THINK it's the venerable Partition Magic product, taken over by some Asian outfit, and now maintained and supported. It does pretty much everything Partition Magic did, with the same style/look interface and ease of use. Symantec stopped supporting Partition Magic as of Win XP SP3, and I'd never found a product I liked that worked reliably AND conveniently to replace it, until about a year ago, when looking into drive cloning.

The main drawback, to me, is the support and doc is all pidgin English, which is a bit scary for your critical data and a plethora of supported Windows partition formats, rules, etc., but at least the support people are helpful and nice, in my experience.

I bought the "PRO" version to support them, since I liked the product and WANT them to continue to support it -- but that's completely unnecessary. To me, no longer feeling vulnerable (to a crash or Windows disaster) re my primary Windows drive on all my Windows machines is nearly priceless.

For people who can access their drives on their PC's, and who don't want to risk losing their entire Windows configurations if something bad happens to the drive or Windows, this is rather nice insurance. Or if you just want to upgrade an HDD to an SSD, etc. Or if you want to conveniently move a lot of data from Windows PC "A" to "B".

[yellowcanoe]

2). There is a LOT of ignoring the warnings, just using Windows XP, and figuring just going to "safe sites only" is an acceptable solution, because nothing "bad" has happened yet. Similar thoughts for plans for Windows 7.

The primary reason for continuing to run Windows XP on some machines at my workplace is because they run special software that interfaces with lab equipment that would be expensive to replace and the software won't run properly on newer versions of Windows. We did have some laggards who were continuing to use Windows XP for general computing including web browsing but that has pretty much been eliminated now. If someone is really attached to a software application that cannot be made to work in Windows 10 there is the option to install Windows XP in a Virtualbox.

2). There is a LOT of assuming that as long as one uses a "good" antivirus / anti-malware program, that it doesn't matter about the OS holes, so there is no issue.

There is some reason to believe that you don't need a commercial AV solution on Windows 10 systems. If you don't install an AV solution, the machine will use Windows Defender. My experience is that Windows has become much more secure and we rarely find infected Windows 10 systems. In the XP days it was not uncommon to find a machine with literally hundreds of infections.

3). There are a lot of people who plan to suck it up and go to Linux. Some commentary on hoping there is going to be far better support / mainstream support for gamers.

If Linux provides the features you need that's great. I've worked both sides of the fence. I have over 30 years experience as a Unix and Linux system administrator. My current job includes both Linux system administration and Windows desktop support. At home we run Windows 10 exclusively (other than having a copy of Ubuntu in a virtualbox) because it is the best choice for the things my wife and I do at home.

4). There are people who don't like it, but plan to suck it up and go to Windows 10 and live with it. And no little to no mention that in another 5+ years, Windows 10 is going away re extended support, just like Windows 7 is Jan 2020, and THEN what?

Microsoft is gradually evolving Windows 10 with major feature releases twice a year so there may not be another major release of Windows on the horizon. The original version of Windows 10 reached EOL on May 9, 2017. The current 1809 release will reach EOL on May 12, 2020 or one year beyond that for the Enterprise and Education editions.

7). Finally, few people were talking about a hybrid solution of using BOTH an older version (or versions) of Windows COMPLETELY off the net -- AND something safe for browsing and videos, etc. on the net -- with a sneaker-net solution for transferring files. Again, maybe to people visiting such a forum, such a solution is too obvious to mention (?)

Sounds like a waste of time to me.

[Outcast_Searcher]

7). Finally, few people were talking about a hybrid solution of using BOTH an older version (or versions) of Windows COMPLETELY off the net -- AND something safe for browsing and videos, etc. on the net -- with a sneaker-net solution for transferring files. Again, maybe to people visiting such a forum, such a solution is too obvious to mention (?)

Sounds like a waste of time to me.

Thanks for the thoughts.

I'd say golf and Nascar are a waste of time, but so what? DIfferent strokes and all that.

Sounds like you're sold on Windows 10. And that's fine, but many people are definitely NOT. I consider it "pesterware" and I don't trust Microsoft re privacy. Or quality re their reputation for Windows 10 update history. But each to his own.

Re the EOL dates, I'm using Oct. 2025 as the published date Microsoft will supposedly stop offering extended service for security patches. Obviously, that date could change. And obviously, Microsoft could decide to support/evolve Windows 10 (maybe just calling it Windows SOMETHING with no more versioning) with a drop every 6 months on an ongoing paid subscription basis, or something.

At least if they did something like that and users felt like they could count on a long term future for Windows being officially supported, that would put a different slant on it. Now, it's mostly rumors and the only thing "real" I see published for the long term is that end of Windows 10 extended support date.

...

And waste of time is in they eye of the beholder. I want safe computing on the net without a lot of hassle, and I want to run the old games, including the 16 bit games, that I love. It's sad that Microsoft offers such poor legacy support IMO (vs. even creaky old IBM), but they've been TERRIBLE about that. NO 16 bit apps under 64 bit windows. DOS support so bad that DOSBOX is famous and loved. Etc.

[Newfie]

I’m still trying to figure out what problem window 10 (or any other version) is trying to solve.

In practical terms I could do anything I wanted to do with window xp. I get not new useful functionality.

Maybe it’s great for gaming, but there is a certain percent of the population that doesn’t care about gaming. I care about spear sheet, data bases, CAD, email, word processing.

From what I see the newer versions of windows sort of hide the file tree structure, I guess it’s too complicated for too many folks. But if that’s true then the machines/software capabilities are waaay over the head of most users. And I think thats true. I know in my corporate life I had an extremely difficult time getting folks to adhere to any kind of standardized filing system. Untold wasted hours and production because they could not find or share stuff. And that’s not even really a computer thing, it’s just being able to think in a structured way and color inside the lines. And management just didn’t seem to get it or care. Leaves me totally baffled.

From my perspective the machines and operating systems capabilities and complexities far exceed those of the common user. There is a need for a solid capable core operating system that meets the realistic needs and is stable, that doesn’t keep screwing with the user interface.

I’m hoping some version of Linux will evolve into that, but it seems to be on the same time table as fusion energy.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I’m still trying to figure out what problem window 10 (or any other version) is trying to solve.

In practical terms I could do anything I wanted to do with window xp. I get not new useful functionality.

Maybe it’s great for gaming, but there is a certain percent of the population that doesn’t care about gaming. I care about spear sheet, data bases, CAD, email, word processing.

I mostly have to agree. I really liked the (at the time) new library functionality in Windows 7, re organizing lots of files. But far too many of the changes are just cosmetic, or changing where things are found, as though that helps the user.

Gaming is really huge, especially for younger users.

I think today's announcement by Google of a new gaming streaming system which ONLY takes a browser -- NO special hardware was very interesting. It dovetails quite nicely with the idea of the Chrome OS -- for most users, just make the internet and browser the center of the vast majority of what they want to do, make is simple and painless, and capture a huge proportion of the computing audience. The simplicity is what's brilliant. At this point, the primary rivals are so far from that approach, that Google could truly dominate that space -- if it doesn't screw up and lose the focus on simplicity over time.

From what I see the newer versions of windows sort of hide the file tree structure, I guess it’s too complicated for too many folks. But if that’s true then the machines/software capabilities are waaay over the head of most users. And I think thats true. I know in my corporate life I had an extremely difficult time getting folks to adhere to any kind of standardized filing system. Untold wasted hours and production because they could not find or share stuff. And that’s not even really a computer thing, it’s just being able to think in a structured way and color inside the lines. And management just didn’t seem to get it or care. Leaves me totally baffled.

Yeah, I get pissed every time I get into a new Windows implementation where they're hiding the file structure of, say, 90% of the system disk. Or won't let me see hidden files, etc.

I suspect too many people without a clue erase things they don't recognize and break things, and this is Microsoft's solution -- to try to protect ignorant people from themselves.

From my perspective the machines and operating systems capabilities and complexities far exceed those of the common user. There is a need for a solid capable core operating system that meets the realistic needs and is stable, that doesn’t keep screwing with the user interface.

I’m hoping some version of Linux will evolve into that, but it seems to be on the same time table as fusion energy.

I think you're right, and again, outside of the power users, I think this is the brilliance of where the Chrome OS is heading. If Android Apps come that do things like process PDF files, Microsoft Office compatible files, etc. -- a large variety of "normal" users will be just fine with it, especially if there's a simple but robust gaming environment -- without all the tweaking and maintenance that Windows can require.

...

Re your question re the "problem" being solved, I believe in theory, that it is to make things as simple and capable as possible, to attract the most users (i.e. dollars). The problem is that, in reality, mainstream systems have actually become much more complex as they've become more powerful, so at some point the customer realizes they're getting a BAD DEAL -- re not enough more for their money. And too much hassle / problems.

To me, Chrome eliminating the entire need for anti-malware software is simply huge. Not only does it make online computing much safer, it removes the expense, time, burden, worry, etc. about that whole area of distraction from the customer. Just that example made me really sit up and look at that, since it's such a radical and effective departure from the status quo.

[radon1]

From my perspective the machines and operating systems capabilities and complexities far exceed those of the common user. There is a need for a solid capable core operating system that meets the realistic needs and is stable, that doesn’t keep screwing with the user interface.

I’m hoping some version of Linux will evolve into that, but it seems to be on the same time table as fusion energy.

Xubuntu and MX Linux are already there. A number of other linux distributions are there too, but these two are both light and user-friendly and functional and stable.

When picking a linux system, you are primarily interacting with the "desktop environment" rather than the system itself. And while there are hundreds of distributions, there is only a handful of desktop environments that these systems employ. A desktop environment functions identically on any distribution.

The preferable option for a desktop environment is Xfce as long as you prioritise light footprint, stability and functionality. This is default desktop for both Xubuntu and MX Linux.

Don't go for Gnome desktop. Other desktops (KDE etc.) are possible choices on a case by case basis.

[Newfie]

I would pretty much need to sit with someone far more knowledgeable and have them walk me through it. Not the kind of thing to do away from tech support hanging on a thin internet connection.

This is what I have:

http://navigatrix.net

But I also have OpenCPN which runs on windows.

https://opencpn.org

[Outcast_Searcher]

From my perspective the machines and operating systems capabilities and complexities far exceed those of the common user. There is a need for a solid capable core operating system that meets the realistic needs and is stable, that doesn’t keep screwing with the user interface.

I’m hoping some version of Linux will evolve into that, but it seems to be on the same time table as fusion energy.

Xubuntu and MX Linux are already there. A number of other linux distributions are there too, but these two are both light and user-friendly and functional and stable.

When picking a linux system, you are primarily interacting with the "desktop environment" rather than the system itself. And while there are hundreds of distributions, there is only a handful of desktop environments that these systems employ. A desktop environment functions identically on any distribution.

The preferable option for a desktop environment is Xfce as long as you prioritise light footprint, stability and functionality. This is default desktop for both Xubuntu and MX Linux.

Don't go for Gnome desktop. Other desktops (KDE etc.) are possible choices on a case by case basis.

Well, I guess we'll see how much such platforms take away from Windows, when Windows 7 support dies, and people who want to compute safely on the net have to do something.

When you say "functionality", what do you mean? How much hassle and how much cost to move Windows business (Office, Acrobat, etc) functionality? How about internet gaming?

I still think the reality is that if one wants to maintain their Windows functionality AND safety for reasonable cost and effort (including learning curve), it's still either put up with Windows 10 and its hassleware/spyware issues, or use a multi-system approach.

And once you get into a multi-system approach, why is some Linux variant truly better than just Chrome (which is a well protected, old Linux variant, which works well with Windows file formats, is immune to malware, etc)? Or Windows 10 for the internet, and other Windows for off the net (if minimizing hassling with Windows 10 is desired, plus running old apps and games Windows 10 won't support)?

And I know, I could go, do research, hope to find a good book or three, etc., but I was hoping to get a quick, realistic big picture of why I keep hearing that Linux (variant xyz) is such a great solution.

[Outcast_Searcher]

By, the way, I'm ready to say that Windows 10 isn't as bad as I was thinking, after working with it and trying some things with different machines.

One of my main objections was the way most PC makers were playing games with the hardware to make it very hard for ordinary folks to have good CONTROL over their Windows 10 environment. (Hardware VERY inaccessible for maintenance without much hassle / risk for all but the hardware tech). I don't know if this was in collusion with Microsoft for Windows 10, or the timing was a coincidence, but it sure was a pain in the butt, IMO.

Now that I've proven to myself that I can use older hardware like the Dell 830 laptop (circa 2007ish, $100ish with a valid Windows license), or a Dell 6420 laptop (circa 2012ish), $200ish with a valid Windows license, plenty of memory, and a fast i7 Intel processor), much of that concern goes away. On such machines, I have proven I can easily and consistently clone and recover the entire drive, including physical replacement, by merely removing two screws and sliding out the drive. Also, they have external batteries, so no hassle there.

And yeah, such machines might fail, but at very low prices, hardware redundancy isn't hard to have.

So for just browsing, Windows 10 and the pesterware might not be too bad. Until 10/2025 when, UNLESS things change -- we're back to the same problem, re safe computing online. Oh, and speaking of safe computing, of course, normal OS's are still exposed to all sorts of malware -- it's just an ongoing war between the good guy and bad guys with your data as the prize.

[Newfie]

Bought a 4gb SIM card for €66 the other day. Wife turned on her computer and connected through my iPhone. That was the end of 4gb of data. And I’ve already gone through and done a bunch of stuff recommended to lower bandwidth requirements. This just sucks!!

[Outcast_Searcher]

Bought a 4gb SIM card for €66 the other day. Wife turned on her computer and connected through my iPhone. That was the end of 4gb of data. And I’ve already gone through and done a bunch of stuff recommended to lower bandwidth requirements. This just sucks!!

Pardon my ignorance, lack of understanding here.

So you put a 4 GB SIM card in your phone and by connecting it to your computer, what?

Do I have the scenario right (4 GB SIM card in phone vs. 4 GB SIMM in computer)?

So is the data problem exposure to viruses or something else, like something broke? Sorry, I know little about smart phones since I've never had one, and little about networking PC's (except as a WIFI or LAN user). Virtually all my PC knowledge is via informal reading and exploring, so it's very patchy.

But I am most curious, re your situation and potential unsafe computing.

Thanks in advance for any insight.