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THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: No Nukes - burn every hydrocarbon first!

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 21 Jan 2019, 16:44:46

cephalotus wrote:So this is left from UKs 6.5GW nuclear plan. One single plant, built by the Chinese, many years behind schedule, way over any cost estimations which will produce electricity at 2-3 times higher prices compared to wind or solar power plants. (and unknown follow up costs and obviously no insurance against a major accident)


Obviously the 20th century concept of giant, centralized nuclear power plants hasn't worked out very well.

In the 21st century we've got new technology, and we should be moving to new, simpler, and more cost effective designs for smaller, modular assembly-line nukes, like this one:

nuscales-small-modular-nuclear-reactor-reliable-resilient-and-flexible

Cheers!
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 21 Jan 2019, 20:52:00

EdwinSm wrote:Only 5 years late...
Developers are already five years behind schedule and $13 billion over budget.


Finland's latest nuclear power plant is Eleven years late

The launch of Finland’s Olkiluoto 3 reactor has been postponed again. It is now to begin production in 2020, some 11 years behind schedule.

Ongoing testing will again postpone the commissioning of the Olkiluoto nuclear power plant’s third unit. The reactor in Eurajoki, south-west Finland, was originally to have begun producing electricity in 2009.
.....
The 1.6-gigawatt OL3 will become Finland’s fifth and biggest reactor. TVO’s largest shareholders .....

More than 2,000 people are still working at the OL3 site, with just over 300 from supplier Areva-Siemens overseeing the commissioning process along with staff from TVO.

As of last month, some about 90 percent of the structure’s 2,700 rooms had been completed.


https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/long-delayed_olkiluoto_3_nuclear_reactor_to_go_online_in_january_2020/10532547


The reason it is delayed is because Finland is broke. They will never start up that reactor even with all that "cheap" uranium.

The whole project is a make work scam.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 21 Jan 2019, 21:37:50

GHung wrote:
Hitachi shelves $20 billion nuclear power plant in UK

Hitachi has shelved plans for a $20 billion nuclear power plant in the United Kingdom, raising questions over future energy supplies in the country.
The Japanese conglomerate said in a statement Thursday that it has stopped work on the project in Wales after failing to reach a deal with the British government.
Horizon Nuclear Power, the company's UK nuclear division, said the decision was made after several years of negotiations over financing with UK authorities failed to yield results.
Hitachi is the second big Japanese company to back away from the UK nuclear energy industry in recent months.

In November, Toshiba (TOSBF) said it would shut down its UK nuclear power operation NuGen early this year after failing to find a buyer.
The moves by Hitachi and Toshiba will make it harder for Britain to meet its targets to reduce carbon emissions. They also throw plans to replace the country's aging nuclear plants into disarray.
"The urgent need for further new nuclear capacity in the United Kingdom should not be underestimated," said Tom Greatrex, chief executive of Britain's Nuclear Industry Association. ......
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/17/business ... index.html


Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

Plant Vogtle a utility boondoggle

The construction of Plant Vogtle’s nuclear reactor units 3 and 4 has been a slow-motion disaster. Cost-overruns and repeated delays have marred the project. Developers are already five years behind schedule and $13 billion over budget.

The truth is that many of the issues plaguing Vogtle’s construction were easily foreseeable and, in a free market, an undertaking such as Plant Vogtle would likely never have transpired. That should tell you a lot about the project’s viability.

The power companies’ decision to proceed with the foolhardy construction is a symptom of Georgia’s problematic electricity market. Georgia permits electricity providers to maintain monopolies and shields them from competition. What this means for electricity consumers is that if they don’t like their provider or its prices, they are out of luck.

In such a setting, consumers are captive to local electricity monopolies. Thus, these companies have no incentive to provide top-notch customer service or competitive pricing to retain their customers. By comparison, in a competitive electricity market, businesses are forced to vie for consumers’ loyalties to remain profitable.

It seems unfathomable that in a free market, a company would embrace a massive and risky investment like Vogtle. Developers have abandoned over 20 nuclear sites in the South alone for various reasons, which should have been the first red flag. The plan also requires charging current ratepayers for the yet-to-be-finished reactors. In a competitive market, this would drive customers away as they flee to companies that offer lower prices. ......
https://www.savannahnow.com/opinion/201 ... boondoggle


Summary: Modern Monetary Theory in Japan doesn't actually work and nuclear fission reactors are not self-funding.

Love the Vogtle Delusional Scam on both sides.

Demand Side Nuclear: You must guarantee to pay us real money (which can neveer happen).
Supply Side Broke Idiocracy: Sure we will, when the project is complete which it never will be.

Diagnosis: Dysfunctional pseudo markets based on fake MMT money. Total Collapse is Imminent.
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Re: No Nukes - burn every hydrocarbon first!

Unread postby cephalotus » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 04:14:25

Plantagenet wrote:
Obviously the 20th century concept of giant, centralized nuclear power plants hasn't worked out very well.

In the 21st century we've got new technology, and we should be moving to new, simpler, and more cost effective designs for smaller, modular assembly-line nukes, like this one:

nuscales-small-modular-nuclear-reactor-reliable-resilient-and-flexible

Cheers!


They want to built a Demonstrator by 2026. As we no for nukes that would mean 2030 or 2035 or never.

So I say that we wait until they are finished and proven.

By that time we (Germany) are somewhere around 70% RE in the electricity grid with the remaining 30% being coal and gas over here.

IF small nukes are a real, cost effective, safe and sutainable option we could/should caculate a scenario with them and this is a big IF.

For just 20% electricity from nukes at a future (year 2050+) 1500TWh/a demand (this includes domestic and industrial heat, mobility and generating fuels from electricity) this would mean 300TWh/a and at 4000h/year of production you would Need 75GW of them. At 100MW each this would mean 750 "small" nuclear reactors in Germany in dddition to all the solar and wind and some gas power plants.

I very much doubt that we will do it.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby EdwinSm » Wed 23 Jan 2019, 05:25:06

StarvingLion wrote:The reason it is delayed is because Finland is broke.


I don't think the country is quite there, but the electricity production/consumption figures for 2018 are worrying, and clearly show the need for the power station to come on line.

According to the link below, the hot dry summer of 2018 caused an increase in electricity consumption and a reduction in production (mostly hydro-). This meant the Finland had the highest import % of electricity in Europe, at 23%.

Consumpiion 87 TWh
Import 20 TWh (23%)

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/electricity_consumption__and_prices__up_in_2018/10582202

ps. What I have realised in all this is that in this geographic situation solar power compliments hydro-power, in that with a hot dry summer solar production will increase when hydro decreases. Even in winter the hourly spot price for electricity is lower than it was in the summer, giving a small amount more financial support for solar power (higher prices when production is highest - works well).
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Re: No Nukes - burn every hydrocarbon first!

Unread postby dissident » Thu 24 Jan 2019, 12:53:56

But according the western media there is no corruption in the west. Gross cost and time overruns in power plant construction are direct evidence of corruption. There is nothing intrinsic to nuclear power plants that makes them super expensive (compared to other energy projects of the same class) and always taking longer to complete:

https://www.rosatom.ru/en/investors/projects/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosatom

Not hard to grab 67% of the global market when your competitors can't get their act together. At one time France was on the ball, but this is no longer the case. Thanks to fake environmentalist snowflakes and outright terrorists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix

https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activit ... 71116.html

The "greens" and corruption helping to send humanity to oblivion.
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Re: No Nukes - burn every hydrocarbon first!

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 24 Jan 2019, 21:07:45

dissident wrote:But according the western media there is no corruption in the west. Gross cost and time overruns in power plant construction are direct evidence of corruption. There is nothing intrinsic to nuclear power plants that makes them super expensive (compared to other energy projects of the same class) and always taking longer to complete:

https://www.rosatom.ru/en/investors/projects/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosatom

Not hard to grab 67% of the global market when your competitors can't get their act together. At one time France was on the ball, but this is no longer the case. Thanks to fake environmentalist snowflakes and outright terrorists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superph%C3%A9nix

https://www.renewable-ei.org/en/activit ... 71116.html

The "greens" and corruption helping to send humanity to oblivion.


Its quite the coincidence that places that have construction delays and problems are the ones with massively declining access to oil. Examples: Georgia, Finland.

Its also quite the coincidence that the successful nuclear vendors have direct ownership of big gas fields and oil...or have major manufacturing. France Nuclear has neither and it is failing, so is Japan, and so is Germany.

The other factor is that Car Manufacturers like Germany don't like Nukes for a good reason: Nukes and personal transport simply don't mix. With Nukes comes the dreaded trains.

The Dissident wants us to believe that Nuclear Fission is funded independently of oil and gas. It obviously can never be so. And any fool who wants the trains deserves the nightmare associated with them.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Thu 31 Jan 2019, 21:36:42

Bankrupt SC says "Fuggetaboutit, its over"....

https://www.sacbee.com/news/business/ar ... 27570.html

South Carolina utility gives up on plan for nuclear reactors

The project to build two additional nuclear reactors in South Carolina is officially dead. The State newspaper reports that Santee Cooper's board agreed Monday to give up the federal license to build the reactors at the V.C. Summer plant north of Columbia. The state-owned utility's private partner, South Carolina Electric & Gas, told the federal government a year ago it wanted to give up its permission to build the plant. Santee Cooper asked for more time in a longshot effort to try and find another partner. The utility's board unanimously voted Monday to give up the license after being told there would be significant expense to keep it. About $9 billion was spent on the plants, which never produced any power. Work stopped in the summer of 2017.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 13 Feb 2019, 06:41:54

California, home to the country’s most aggressive wind and solar mandates, is a cautionary tale. On sunny days, the state often winds up paying neighboring states to take unneeded power off its hands. Californians pay 50 percent more for electricity than the average U.S. consumer. And yet, California’s carbon emissions haven’t fallen any faster than those in the nation as a whole. Nonetheless, the state’s public utilities commission recently voted to shut down California’s last remaining nuclear power plant, which will take with it 9 percent of the state’s electric power.

On the global stage, Germany exemplifies green energy’s law of unintended consequences. The country has poured 150 billion euros into its ambitious Energiewende plan to wean itself from fossil fuels. Despite obtaining 38 percent of its electricity from renewable sources, Germany has made little progress bringing down carbon emissions. Meanwhile, electricity rates have doubled, air quality is miserable, and the country still depends on coal for about 40 percent of its power. Germany “is the biggest fraud globally,” one frustrated EU official said. France’s Macron, who came into office promising to shut down many of that country’s reactors, reversed course after observing the German example. “What did the Germans do when they shut all their nuclear in one go?” he asked rhetorically in a 2017 interview. “They worsened their CO2 footprint. It wasn’t good for the planet. So, I won’t do that.”

Will more policymakers start facing up to the yawning gap between renewable hype and energy reality? They may be forced to. The blistering summer of 2018 throughout much of the Northern Hemisphere pushed electricity usage to dangerous levels. Germany’s vaunted green-energy infrastructure couldn’t keep up, and the country had to rely on its few remaining reactors to fill the gap. South Korea moved to increase its number of operating reactors from 14 to 19. Japan accelerated a plan to reopen some of the plants closed after Fukushima, nearly doubling its nuclear capacity. And Taiwan reopened a formerly closed plant. Antinuclear sentiment runs high in all those countries, but their political leaders apparently decided that they would face a stiffer voter backlash if they allowed power blackouts.

Many pronuclear advocates hold out hope that “next-generation” nuclear power technologies might provide the needed breakthrough to revive the sector. Private investment is pouring into innovative new reactor concepts, including Small Modular Reactors, which could be factory-built, made impervious to meltdowns, and sited close to cities or industrial parks, where energy demand is highest. Proposals to build SMR demonstration plants are moving ahead in Idaho and Tennessee and in Canada. If these ideas pan out, they could indeed revolutionize power generation.

But rolling out such technology at scale could take decades. “We don’t need to wait for advanced nuclear,” Shellenberger warns. “Current reactor designs work fine, and they’ve been proven safe. We just need to keep using them.”


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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby diemos » Mon 18 Feb 2019, 11:49:57

I've been to the Tohoku region a couple of times in the last few years. Not the exclusion zone but Fukushima, Yamagata and Ichinoseki cities.

I remember the anti-nukes weeping and wailing about how the region would be a blasted moon scape forever, bodies stacked like cord wood, muto-chicken babies crawling through the streets croaking, "kill me, kill me".

And all I can think is, "There now ... that wasn't so bad, was it?"

The hysteria did more damage than the fallout.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby rdberg1957 » Mon 25 Feb 2019, 16:44:34

Nuclear power could be the backbone of a well functioning grid which would use renewable power along with nuclear. Small reactors could supply a good base. I think the option is worth exploring given that 100% renewable seems pretty iffy.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 25 Feb 2019, 19:36:56

A stable, low carbon grid needs three kinds of power generation:

1) Baseline power generation, 24X7. Hydropower and Nuclear power are both good for this. Since we don't have enough such power plants, we burn a lot of FF's for baseline power today.

2) Renewable, carbon-free power. Wind and solar are examples. However the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow 24X7, so we need an economical way to store such energy, and as of yet, we don't have such.

3) "Peaking Plants" which are used to make up the energy needed to fill the gap between renewables and actual power demand. These are for the most part gas turbines fuelled by natural gas. I have one less than two miles from my home. When you are nearby, you will hear the turbines scream as a cloud goes over Silicon Valley and reduces solar production.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby Yonnipun » Tue 26 Feb 2019, 06:43:26

KaiserJeep wrote:A stable, low carbon grid needs three kinds of power generation:

1) Baseline power generation, 24X7. Hydropower and Nuclear power are both good for this. Since we don't have enough such power plants, we burn a lot of FF's for baseline power today.

2) Renewable, carbon-free power. Wind and solar are examples. However the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow 24X7, so we need an economical way to store such energy, and as of yet, we don't have such.

3) "Peaking Plants" which are used to make up the energy needed to fill the gap between renewables and actual power demand. These are for the most part gas turbines fuelled by natural gas. I have one less than two miles from my home. When you are nearby, you will hear the turbines scream as a cloud goes over Silicon Valley and reduces solar production.


Which is what we already have everywhere at the moment. The trouble is that the amount of renewable must be quit small for this system to be stable.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 11:13:12

Correct, or you must have LOTS MORE renewables generation, plus energy storage. I have 2.8kva of solar PV on the roof, and in sunny California, it produces at 18% of rated capacity on average - and I have no batteries.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby diemos » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 14:35:46

Or you can reorganize your society to make hay while the sun shines. Use power when it's available and stop expecting any amount of power to be available whenever you want.

Which is what we will eventually do once reality grabs us by the hair and drags us kicking and screaming into the future.

There is no plug compatible replacement for our current system.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 15:47:15

diemos wrote:Or you can reorganize your society to make hay while the sun shines. Use power when it's available and stop expecting any amount of power to be available whenever you want.

Which is what we will eventually do once reality grabs us by the hair and drags us kicking and screaming into the future.

There is no plug compatible replacement for our current system.


Oh, you mean:

Using electric lighting in the daytime and not at night.

Heating your home when you are at work, not when you are at home.

Having hot water when nobody is there to use it.

Etc. Etc.

Yeah - that'll happen, NOT.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby diemos » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 20:44:59

KaiserJeep wrote:
Oh, you mean:

Using electric lighting in the daytime and not at night.

Heating your home when you are at work, not when you are at home.

Having hot water when nobody is there to use it.

Etc. Etc.

Yeah - that'll happen, NOT.


https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/news/iri ... People.jpg

I expect them to be using just as much heat during the day as at night.
I expect them to be using just as much electric lighting during the day as at night.
I expect them to be using just as much hot water during the day as at night.

As time goes on more and more people will be tossed over the side of the lifeboat and "normal life" will become available only to the privileged few.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 03 Mar 2019, 16:56:49

Sure, we should all happily throw away our modern lifestyle and become aesthetics living like monks rather than use clean safe nuclear fission.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 03 Mar 2019, 23:52:35

KaiserJeep wrote:A stable, low carbon grid needs three kinds of power generation:

1) Baseline power generation, 24X7. Hydropower and Nuclear power are both good for this.

Hydro is good for peaking, if you don't mind downstream river flow fluctuating wildly.
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Re: THE Nuclear Power Thread pt 9 (merged)

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 04 Mar 2019, 15:17:27

Keith_McClary wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:A stable, low carbon grid needs three kinds of power generation:

1) Baseline power generation, 24X7. Hydropower and Nuclear power are both good for this.

Hydro is good for peaking, if you don't mind downstream river flow fluctuating wildly.


Hydro is very good at stabilizing frequency. Estonia is connected with Russia and the frequency is stabilized by big hydro stations in Russia.
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