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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 04 Sep 2018, 11:51:30

Sine the rich are only 1% of the population this will be a short trend. Unless we change it to “Eat the richEST”, then it will take care of some for a long time to come. ;)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby jawagord » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 12:15:02

I'm wondering how many of the Beliebers are going to forgo meat and start eating insects to stave off climate change? It's the mother of all existential threats to humanity, right? Probably about the same amount that will stop using airplanes, cars, trucks, trains and buses. Remember this is the science of stupid, Bon appétit!

Reducing our meat intake is crucial to avoiding climate breakdown, since food production accounts for about a quarter of all human-related greenhouse gas emissions, and is predicted to rise. In western countries, this means eating 90% less beef and five times as many beans and pulses.
Edible insects have been hailed as a solution to both global food shortages and reducing emissions from animal agriculture, but despite the industry’s best efforts, our response when faced with a cockroach is disgust. Even in London edible insects are seen as nothing more than a gimmick, .....



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... sty-trendy
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 13:21:41

jawagord wrote:I'm wondering how many of the Beliebers are going to forgo meat and start eating insects to stave off climate change? It's the mother of all existential threats to humanity, right? Probably about the same amount that will stop using airplanes, cars, trucks, trains and buses.

Or maybe there's a middle ground. I eat about a third the meat I used to, as, simply, I feel better with smaller portions of meat, and it helps me maintain my weight, now that I'm past middle age.

I used to somehow not feel "satisfied" after a big meal with no meat. Maybe having a smaller appetite now helps.

But I have to agree with you that given human nature re consumption (spending all they can earn AND borrow), and especially re the trend of the first world becoming a bunch of fatties -- no, people won't give up what they want in the main, until and unless circumstances force them to.

And one of those forces apparently won't be the politicians, seeking re-election above all else. And of course, politicians getting re-elected by pandering to the "needs" and woes of those who borrow themselves into penury is now great sport -- only feeding the ability to consume too much.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 15:10:46

I wish to re-state the obvious. Firstly, I completely understand how eating veggies and bugs and slugs has less impact on the planet than chowing down on an aged Porterhouse that is too big, too fatty, and just too delicious. Secondly, that allows us to replace one meat eater with three vegetarians, and that is NOT a good thing.

Eat the vegetarians, they taste better. Predators eat herbivores, it's nature's way.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 15:30:23

Since this thread is now bordering on the absurd, so let us restate some basic facts. Meat eating takes up huge amounts of land that equates to less trees, more nitrogen runoff, more synthetic fertlizer use and pesticide use, more use of mechanized vehicles, more GHG emissions, less biodiversity. All facts and all by most measures negative outcomes. Nutritional arguments are a sidetrack to the main premise of the original post

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 85071.html
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 17:37:46

Everybody's avoiding the obvious, which really is what this thread is about.

There are multiple threads with the phrase "killing the planet" in them. The premise with all of them is fundamentally the same, that being that we should encourage low impact behaviors and discourage high impact behaviors.

Such behavior changes allow us to pack more consumers onto the planet before we again approach whatever natural limit we were banging up against before.

However, we have been in human overshoot for 200+ years. The sustainable number of humans is somewhere around 1 Billion, which was exceeded long before any of us were born. We have lived our entire lives in a dying world.

It seems to me that the "proper" and desirable behavior under these conditions is to do anything and everything that we can possibly do to reduce the number of humans on Earth to a Billion or less.

In times past, there was more honesty about such things. Such as when Andrew Jackson, founder of the modern Democratic Party, offered a Federal Bounty for Indian scalps ($40 for males, $20 for females/children). But he was not the first, there was already a long record of paying for Indian scalps that stretched back as far as the French and Indian wars, before the USA existed.

The difference being, when Jackson did it, the Indians were "protected" by the US Constitution.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby jawagord » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 18:06:34

pstarr wrote:
onlooker wrote:Since this thread is now bordering on the absurd, so let us restate some basic facts. Meat eating takes up huge amounts of land that equates to less trees, more nitrogen runoff, more synthetic fertlizer use and pesticide use, more use of mechanized vehicles, more GHG emissions, less biodiversity. All facts and all by most measures negative outcomes. Nutritional arguments are a sidetrack to the main premise of the original post

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 85071.html

That is not true. There are some basic misunderstanding here regarding meat production.

Dairy cattle (not meat cattle) are penned for much of their lives, eating fodder. Dairy cattle spend hours, twice every day in milking parlors and pens, awaiting milking. Dairy cattle are off pasture in the winter and must be fed. Milk production is energy intensive. Not meat cattle production.

Meat cattle (unlike dairy cattle) spend their lives (all season out West and deep south) on pasture and range, grazing on grasses. Free pasture. Not irrigated. Not fertilized. Meat cattle only go into pens for a few week for grain fattening. Meat cattle production is less energy intensive than milk production. Milk is relatively bad. Steaks are good lol

Meat cattle now graze where bison grazed. No net gain or loss of methane emissions.

Humans slaughter cattle humanly. Wolves slaughter bisons with undo nastiness.


I would add that much of this land that grows animal feed is unsuitable (or unprofitable) for growing crops for human consumption. Take corn, humans can only consume the kernal which is ready at plant maturity, cows, dairy cows can be fed corn silage where the entire corn plant is cut green and used for feed, plus the farmer might get 2 crops of corn for silage off the land, yielding a crop tonnage of maybe 10:1 for animal feed vs human. Raising animals for consumption is not the inefficient process the vegan climate changers would have us believe. The real problem (if it is a problem) is too many people, not what they eat.

http://utbfc.utk.edu/Content%20Folders/ ... sp434d.pdf
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby longpig » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 17:27:36

I eat a Vegan diet, I mostly eat potatoes, rice, bread and some fruits. The number one issue is over population, meat eating is further down the list of the causes of the number of environmental problems we face.

That said consuming animal products is very bad for health, it is number one cause of atherosclerosis and heart attack, diabetes, cancer, kidney failure, gout, gall stones, arthritis and other degenerative diseases. Eating a basic diet saves you a lot of money, reduces your environmental foot print dramatically (thou it defeats it if others expand their foot print because you have reduced yours) and you will be so healthy you will never need to see a doctor.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 18:00:21

I recently viewed a video titled "Neanderthal". It somewhat surprised me to learn that many of the chronic problems experienced by modern humans derive from Neanderthal DNA. The Neanderthals left Africa long before modern humans, and evolution adapted them to survive in Europe and Asia during the most recent Ice Age. Then modern humans and Neanderthals interbred, hundreds of times. About 70% of the Neanderthal genome can be found in modern humans, although very few individuals have more than the typical 2% to 10%. (One group of Africans living in sub-Saharan Africa has 0%, they inhabit the area called the "Cradle of Humanity".)

Obesity, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, high serum cholesteral, and many other chronic diseases are the legacy of the Neanderthals and their Ice Age adaptations. When one is not living on stored belly fat for all of an extended Winter, these cold weather adaptations do considerable harm to an individual's health.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby GHung » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 18:15:23

I'm grilling a couple of HUGE porterhouses in honor of this thread.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby longpig » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 18:45:31

GHung wrote:I'm grilling a couple of HUGE porterhouses in honor of this thread.


I'm going to eat a large sweet potato in honour of this thread.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 08:12:31

I just rediscovered this chart of the history of percapita meat consumption broken down by country.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ate-change

Note that in 1962, China's annual per capita meat consumption was a mere 3.8 kg (~8.4 pounds). That's basically what most of us would call a vegetarian who occasionally 'falls off the wagon.'

India's was about the same (and continues to be quite low, while China's meat consumption has skyrocketed).

Many other of the most populated countries in the world (Pakistan, Bangladesh, North and South Korea, Japan) also had consumption rates about this low or lower. These are also places that do not eat any dairy, or (for most in South Asia) very little.

This all confirms what I have said many times here and elsewhere: Through most of post-ag-revolution history, most people have been mostly vegan most of the time.

Being mostly vegan is the global norm, not some fringe, wierdo diet. And it is a diet that has sustained people for generation after generation.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby GHung » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 09:44:46

dohboi wrote:I just rediscovered this chart of the history of percapita meat consumption broken down by country.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ate-change

Note that in 1962, China's annual per capita meat consumption was a mere 3.8 kg (~8.4 pounds). That's basically what most of us would call a vegetarian who occasionally 'falls off the wagon.'

India's was about the same (and continues to be quite low, while China's meat consumption has skyrocketed).

Many other of the most populated countries in the world (Pakistan, Bangladesh, North and South Korea, Japan) also had consumption rates about this low or lower. These are also places that do not eat any dairy, or (for most in South Asia) very little.

This all confirms what I have said many times here and elsewhere: Through most of post-ag-revolution history, most people have been mostly vegan most of the time.

Being mostly vegan is the global norm, not some fringe, wierdo diet. And it is a diet that has sustained people for generation after generation.


The chart is a bit skewed in that it doesn't include fish (unless I missed something). Asians, especially SE Asians have generally gotten much of their protein from fish and seafood. Maybe we need a thread titled "Seafood Eaters Are Killing The Oceans, So Now They Eat More Pigs And Cows", eh?

In terms of consumption footprint per capita, the Republic of Korea scored highest (78.5 kg per capita), followed by Norway (66.6 kg), Portugal (61.5 kg), Myanmar (59.9 kg), Malaysia (58.6 kg) and Japan (58 kg) – China comes in seventh at 48.3 kg per capita.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-09-fish-cons ... n.html#jCp


Fishes' large carbon footprints to be included in seafood eco-labeling

A new study has led researchers to call for a review of seafood 'eco-labels', which currently exclude consideration of the substantial carbon footprint left by the seafood industry.

In assessing the carbon emissions at every stage of the seafood journey from the ocean to the dinner plate, researchers have previously found that seafood products can have extremely large carbon footprints – up to 14 times the product's own weight.

"In addition to fuel use in fishing – which often requires travel to the farthest reaches of the oceans – the seafood industry's carbon footprint is also the result of the energy inputs resulting from the large amounts of feed required to support fish growth in aquaculture. Of course, another key input to seafood carbon emissions is the refrigeration required at all stages of the seafood journey," said lead researcher Dr. Elizabeth Madin.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-04-fishes-la ... d.html#jCp
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby aspera » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 12:27:27

KaiserJeep wrote: When one is not living on stored belly fat for all of an extended Winter, these cold weather adaptations do considerable harm to an individual's health.

Even when one is surviving an extended winter (and the "weeks of want") using belly fat, these adaptations do considerable harm. The chronic stress response allows for survival during harsh times, but at a cost. The biological pathway is the HPA axis (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal)

The physiological outcomes include:
    -- Raises fluid retention
    -- Raises fat storage
    -- Raises blood lipids
    -- Raises alertness
    -- Raises emotional responsiveness
    -- Eventual suppression of immune responses
Modern chronic stressors (e.g., somebody always being wrong on the internet) trigger the same HPA pathway (the drip-drip-drip of Cortisol). And that's why I try to follow the "Let go or be dragged" advice.

Yearly famine (our SOP until just over a century ago, right around when fossil fuels became the dominate energy source according to Smil) was a chronic stressor, but so is the looming effect of climate disruption, energy descent and environmental degradation.

And without a surplus of net energy we might revisit those famines. Drip Drip Drip.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 14:12:43

That said consuming animal products is very bad for health, it is number one cause of atherosclerosis and heart attack, diabetes, cancer, kidney failure, gout, gall stones, arthritis and other degenerative diseases. Eating a basic diet saves you a lot of money, reduces your environmental foot print dramatically (thou it defeats it if others expand their foot print because you have reduced yours) and you will be so healthy you will never need to see a doctor.


Google dr Bernstein and find out how wrong you are.

He was born in New York City in 1934.[1] In 1946, at the age of 12, Bernstein developed type 1 diabetes. For more than two decades, Bernstein was what he calls "an ordinary diabetic"—one who dutifully followed doctor's orders. Despite his diligence coping with the condition, the complications from his diabetes worsened over the years; by the time Bernstein reached his 30s, many of his body systems had begun to deteriorate.[2]


He is still alive and keeps ticking thanks to eating meat.
Everyone who has diabetes or prediabetes should read his book.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 14:18:01

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30376075/

Data Extraction: Two investigators evaluated 275 studies against the inclusion criteria (original studies in humans, written in English or Spanish and including vegetarian or vegan diets and omnivorous diets as factors with BMD values for the whole body, lumbar spine, or femoral neck and/or the number of fractures as the outcome) and exclusion criteria (articles that did not include imaging or studies that included participants who had suffered a fracture before starting the vegetarian or vegan diet). The quality assessment tool for observational cohort and cross-sectional studies was used to assess the quality of the studies.

Results: Twenty studies including 37 134 participants met the inclusion criteria. Compared with omnivores, vegetarians and vegans had lower BMD at the femoral neck and lumbar spine and vegans also had higher fracture rates.

Conclusions: Vegetarian and vegan diets should be planned to avoid negative consequences on bone health.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 15:01:24

GHung, good point/question.

I was under the impression that they included fish under meat, along with chicken, etc. I noticed that many very poor island nations had higher rates of meat consumption than other poor nations, and I assumed that is because of their access to fish. But it would indeed help if the article was clearer on that definitions.

The most basic meaning of meat is the flesh of animals, but it is true that for many the default meaning is flesh of mammals.

Yonnnipuns points seem to be:

1) there is one person in the world who may have benefited from eating meat.

(I'll just grant you that one, 'cause...who cares!?)

2) People should think about what they eat.

(Well, yeah. That applies pretty well to everyone, I should hope! :) )

Thanks for everyone for your thoughts.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 15:50:19

Also keep in mind the east Asian diet had a significant portion of marine mammal meat in it. Japan and Taiwan still do though in the latter country it is considered black market consumption.

While a fish is a fish a marine mammal be it seal, walrus, sea lion, dolphin, porpoise or whale is much more like beef or pork than it is like cod or tilapia. In Japan hunting the smaller marine mammal for personal consumption is a tradition going back thousands of years and has full government approval while hunting whale for commercial sale is marginally practiced Japan has now turned to imports from Norway to meet demand for commercial whale meat. Strangely enough those censored censored people in the Sea Shepherd organization attack whaling by the Japanese but ignore whaling by Norwegians. Kind of racist in my opinion. Selective whaling is no different than any other kind of hunting, it can easily be done in a humane and sustainable fashion. Pretending otherwise is simply an anti-hunting campaign based on sea mammals as a first step. The whales hunted by Scandinavian nations and Japan are in no danger of extinction but the so called 'greens' in the IWC are still in control no matter what the science says.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 16:32:47

Yonnnipuns points seem to be:

1) there is one person in the world who may have benefited from eating meat.


Are you kidding?

Diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in 1946 at the age of 12, Dr. Richard K. Bernstein never set out to be a doctor. Not only that but according to statistics from the American Diabetes Association, he should have been long dead by now.


That he is very much alive and, in fact, in excellent health, can be attributed to two primary causes. The first is that he was originally trained as an engineer and attacked his disease as a problem to be solved and not a condition to be treated. The second is that he was fortunate enough to still to be alive when the first blood glucose meters arrived on the scene.


In 1969, after following ADA guidelines for more than twenty years, Dr. Bernstein had many of the debilitating complications of the disease. Sick and tired of being at the mercy of his disease, he obtained one of the early blood glucose meters. Hardly the cheap and common instrument it is now, the device was intended for a very small and specialized niche: To help keep hospitals from inadvertently allowing comatose diabetics to die at night when their labs were closed, because a diabetic in a coma smells of ketones and can be easily mistaken for someone who has been drinking heavily.

Dr. Bernstein obtained one of the devices at the princely sum of about $700—today, based on inflation, that’s nearly $5,000. Dr. Bernstein used himself as a guinea pig and began testing his blood glucose throughout the day, hoping to discover what made it go up and down. After considerable trial and error, not to mention research, he discovered that he could normalize his blood glucose through diet, exercise and medication—and that he could help others do the same.

This was his elegant, landmark breakthrough: The only difference between a diabetic and a non-diabetic is high blood sugars. All of the complications of diabetes are caused by high blood sugars. Therefore, if you can normalize blood glucose, you can prevent the complications or make them go away, which is exactly what a cure would do.


Except that when the then-engineer Richard Bernstein tried to persuade the medical community that he had found the answer, the medical community roundly ignored him—even told him that it was impossible. So, in his mid-forties, he decided the leave his successful career in business and go to medical school.


Today, many thousands of patients and readers later, Dr. Bernstein continues to see and train patients, maintains a busy schedule that includes a monthly question-and-answer teleconference, and continues to refine his cutting edge program of blood glucose normalization. He reaches more patients than he ever could have back when he first opened his practice—and slowly, too slowly perhaps, the standard of care has been changing to mirror his ideas.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby GHung » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 18:14:01

Tanada wrote:Also keep in mind the east Asian diet had a significant portion of marine mammal meat in it. Japan and Taiwan still do though in the latter country it is considered black market consumption.

While a fish is a fish a marine mammal be it seal, walrus, sea lion, dolphin, porpoise or whale is much more like beef or pork than it is like cod or tilapia. In Japan hunting the smaller marine mammal for personal consumption is a tradition going back thousands of years and has full government approval while hunting whale for commercial sale is marginally practiced Japan has now turned to imports from Norway to meet demand for commercial whale meat. Strangely enough those censored censored people in the Sea Shepherd organization attack whaling by the Japanese but ignore whaling by Norwegians. Kind of racist in my opinion. Selective whaling is no different than any other kind of hunting, it can easily be done in a humane and sustainable fashion. Pretending otherwise is simply an anti-hunting campaign based on sea mammals as a first step. The whales hunted by Scandinavian nations and Japan are in no danger of extinction but the so called 'greens' in the IWC are still in control no matter what the science says.


My main issue with hunting and eating Cetaceans is that I consider them to be highly intelligent and sapient creatures, perhaps more sapient than humans. Seems almost like cannibalism.
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