[ralfy]

Overpopulation is not so much as about space as resource consumption. Thus, a large desert island can have only two people, but if it has only enough resources for one, then the island is overpopulated.

[Cog]

If those lean and mean central Americans are doing so well where they are at, why bring them to the USA to learn and adopt our slovenly ways? I prefer central Americans in central Americs.

[Ibon]

If those lean and mean central Americans are doing so well where they are at, why bring them to the USA to learn and adopt our slovenly ways? I prefer central Americans in central Americs.

98% of Central Americans agree with you. The percentage on the move is a tiny fraction of the regions population.

[Revi]

The problem is that most Americans can't or won't take the agrarian jobs. It's impossible to find people to plant trees and do farm work nowadays. That's why they are hiring central americans to do it. The reality of the situation is we can't do it any more. I don't want to, even though I have done some tree planting and thinning on my own land.

[Newfie]

The problem is that most Americans can't or won't take the agrarian jobs. It's impossible to find people to plant trees and do farm work nowadays. That's why they are hiring central americans to do it. The reality of the situation is we can't do it any more. I don't want to, even though I have done some tree planting and thinning on my own land.

As the bottle neck tightens those that won’t accept such jobs go away of their own volition. Adjustment is made until we get to the sustainable number. If too few adapt then we can bring in more.

[Subjectivist]

The problem is that most Americans can't or won't take the agrarian jobs. It's impossible to find people to plant trees and do farm work nowadays. That's why they are hiring central americans to do it. The reality of the situation is we can't do it any more. I don't want to, even though I have done some tree planting and thinning on my own land.

As the bottle neck tightens those that won’t accept such jobs go away of their own volition. Adjustment is made until we get to the sustainable number. If too few adapt then we can bring in more.

In reality when faced with the choice 'work or starve' everyone who can actually work does so.

[Newfie]

Sub,

For the most part you are correct, but apparently not all. Some number will be so indoctrinated into the current culture they won’t be able to adapt.

And younger generations will not hold the same ideas as the old generation so they will do better. Some of it depends upon the speed of transition, the faster and deeper the more will not make it.

[Ibon]

Sub,

For the most part you are correct, but apparently not all. Some number will be so indoctrinated into the current culture they won’t be able to adapt.

And younger generations will not hold the same ideas as the old generation so they will do better. Some of it depends upon the speed of transition, the faster and deeper the more will not make it.

A bit morbid to contemplate but perhaps necessary. In today's opulent world we already see self destructive behavior and suicides due to the heightened levels of anxiety and stress that results in eating disorders, addictions, anti-social usage of internet etc. If we do get some powerful consequences which results in growing poverty forcing some to return to physical labor for survival, and if this happens quickly, then for sure most of the generation that experiences this will be psychologically totally unprepared and a significant percentage of the population will refuse to adapt and perish either by direct suicide or choosing maladaptive behaviors which will shorten their lives.

This is a very short lived phenomenon, lasting only for one or at most two generations. Already the new generation emerging afterwards will be honed to new conditions and will adapt.

This reminds me of the discussion upthread that Newfie mentioned regarding situational ethics vs cultural ethics. For a significant percentage of the population the changing situational conditions will not allow adaptation because they will find themselves culturally cemented to a set of values and standard of living that will no longer be possible.

Others, like maybe most of the readers of this forum, will at least know the big picture and be pre disposed to adapt even if our aging physical conditions will make our contributions rather pathetic. At least our spirits will be in the right place.

And by the way, relevant to this thread, it very well may be during this challenging transition that an increase of immigrants with agrarian skills and ability to do hard labor may be viewed as an asset and welcomed. Just saying.

To be more specific, I am an aging priveleged white guy who has a staff of 4 farm laborers who are quite affordable and do all the heavy lifting regarding the farm work here at our project. Why is it so hard to conceive of this same arrangement blossoming in North America if constraints and consequences force farmers and other labor intensive industries to pull from the same source.

Now on to Revi's above comment about fruit growers.....

Revi mentioned apple farmers finding it almost impossible to find laborers to pick their crop now that the crack down of illegals has had the desired or undesired effect, depending on your occupation or industry. Many Trump voting rural agrarian apple farmers are having serious second thoughts regarding immigration.

https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/15/news/e ... index.html

http://fortune.com/2017/08/08/immigrati ... ing-crops/

https://mic.com/articles/8272/alabama-i ... .xGnqE9w1R

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-f ... stworkers/

[Cog]

Ah but there is a big difference in your setup in Panama and the way it would turn out in the USA. There are not multiple government agencies in Panama enforcing work safety, medical, and education rules for your workers. You have negotiated a fair deal with them and that is the end of it. Free market unrestrained capitalism.

But that dog won't hunt in the USA. There is no end of do-gooder federal agencies, lawyers, and other assorted a-holes who won't leave well enough alone. You will have to give those foreign workers all the treats of healthcare, education for their kids, a minimum wage, housing, OSHA safety regulations, and the list goes on and on.

[Ibon]

Ah but there is a big difference in your setup in Panama and the way it would turn out in the USA. There are not multiple government agencies in Panama enforcing work safety, medical, and education rules for your workers. You have negotiated a fair deal with them and that is the end of it. Free market unrestrained capitalism.

But that dog won't hunt in the USA. There is no end of do-gooder federal agencies, lawyers, and other assorted a-holes who won't leave well enough alone. You will have to give those foreign workers all the treats of healthcare, education for their kids, a minimum wage, housing, OSHA safety regulations, and the list goes on and on.

The little republican in me is agreeing with you. More than you know.

Being at the end of a 4WD road the government agencies that do inspections have never made it up here. Sanitation department inspecting our restaurant. Never happened. Labor office inspecting if we are paying SS# to our workers. Never happened. Building inspectors. Never happened. Government utility agency checking to see if we are illegally using the government subsidized propane for commercial purposes. Never happened.

One of the reasons we have a love hate relationship with the 4WD road is that it keeps those public maggot inspectors off of our land. These agencies are not given 4WD vehicles. The only government agency with 4x4's that visits us is the environmental agency (ANAM). And they are our friends.

Examples of heavy lifting physical labor on our operation that few Americans today can still perform

1) Picking Coffee ($ 3 paid per 5 gallon bucket)
2) Carrying sacks of harvested coffee and bananas up steep slopes from field to road.
3) Chain saw operator processing timber
4) Hauling blocks of heavy tropical timber out of the wet forest to nearest road
5) Digging drainage ditches with shovels and picks along road
6) Pouring cement with 5 gallon buckets, shoveling stone, sand and cement, hand mixing without machine
7) Using a machete to clear pastures of weeds

Go back 2 generations and this was standard work in agrarian life in the USA. Not anymore. Many Central Americans can still do these tasks in a post fossil fuel age.

The other day I talked to some of our workers. All of their children are not following in their footsteps, they want urban jobs and they want to migrate to the big cities here in panama... So all of this talk I am bringing up regarding Central Americans doing heavy lifting is disappearing fast in Panama and Costa Rica and urbanized Mexico. Nicaragua, Honduras and Guatemala and rural Mexico are the only specific countries where the demographics will keep a large segment of the population doing heavy labor. As these countries industrialize so to will they go the same route as Americans and become increasingly soft as they choose urban life.

[Ibon]

I would invite all of you to now witness how the whole immigrant topic will recede into the background in the days ahead and be replaced with some other hysterical topic where you guys can all get in a tizzy over. The puppet masters have you all on a string and most of you can't see it. Even some of you who should know better.

Wrote the above Nov 7th on the thread When will the mass dieoff begin?

I thank you all in advance for your praise of my great Nostradamus talents!!

[Newfie]

Prognostication skills duly noted and appreciated.

[Newfie]

Department claims the USA on track for 1,000,000 illegal immigrants this year.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/hundreds-of- ... facilities

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/20/70534174 ... as-streets

[Newfie]

Libian immigrants/refugees were rescued by and then hijacked a Greek ship, since liberated.

A couple of stories.

https://gcaptain.com/migrants-hijack-me ... off-libya/

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/malt ... ts-n988291

[Revi]

The immigrants are the only ones who still believe in the American dream. Everyone else has given up on it.

[Newfie]

Dodging the issue. If the right answer is 200-250 million then it seems absurd have immigration when we are at 330 million.

It’s pretty simple.

Forget all the drama and bigotry and accusations. The population needs to shrink.

Immigration is like a 330 pound guy whining about being fat while knocking back a Super Sized soda.

You sound like you suggesting we should just put a cork on immigration completely until we reach a desired level of population.

I would never advocate that. Why should that policy be promoted ahead of say Dohboi's suggestion of eating less meat.

Or why not outlaw exporting corn and wheat to China that is grown in arid areas that deplete our non renewable aquifers.

The 330 pound gorilla is multifaceted when it comes to human overshoot and you seem to be trying to create a 330 pound scapegoat gorilla here!

Ibon,

Missed this post not ignoring.

Yes I am advocating stopping all immigration (with some rare exceptions)until we get to that set point. It’s the one thing we have direct control of and responsibility for. It is legislatively do able.

Dohboi s idea of eating less meat does not address the problem. The problem being overpopulation which effects us negatively in manny ways. Dohboi’s solution is to make more room for more humans which does not work to reduce overshoot, simply mitigate.

I don’t follow your suggestion about exports, got lost in it somewhere. But it requires the USA to meddle in the affairs of other countries some of whom have nuclear weapons. China has already done far more than anyone else through their one child policy. They are facing a soon to be decreasing population and so far have not opened themselves to mass immigration.

If you mean we should start looking at sustainability, stop sacrificing our soils health for short term cash, then I agree. I think we need to look at large scale agrigarian reform among other issues. Stopping all exports overnight would amount to genocide. But ALL nations need to work towards sustainability. Obviously that includes international trade. But Saudi Arabia, for example, is in a real sustainability pickle, they are 100% supported by a declining finite resource.

I completely agree this is a multifaceted 300 pound gorilla. I also think that for the USA to effect change elsewhere in the world we first need to clean up our act here. Responsibility starts at home and we have a LOT of work to do in our own backyard.

[Revi]

I think the problem is that we can't live within our means, and people come here to get some of the money we seem to want to spend. Empires are attractors, and people come to the core to try to make a living. All Roads lead to Rome. We are going to keep attracting people until they realize that it's no better here than where they come from. That's going to take a while....

[Newfie]

Agreed. One reason I’m for pretty strict immigration rules. I feel sympathy and empathy and in their shoes I would do the same thing.

But in the shoes I’m in we whole strictly limitnommigration. No point turning us into a Guatemala.

Not that the damn cities are any better, just offer the consumption drug and hopium baloney.

Truly depressing.

[Revi]

Agreed. One reason I’m for pretty strict immigration rules. I feel sympathy and empathy and in their shoes I would do the same thing.

But in the shoes I’m in we whole strictly limitnommigration. No point turning us into a Guatemala.

Not that the damn cities are any better, just offer the consumption drug and hopium baloney.

Truly depressing.

How long do you think we can hold people out for? They are going to get in by many other means even if we put in a wall. I know I could find a sailboat or sea kayak and land someplace if I had to. Tell me there aren't others thinking the same thing!

[onlooker]

"We are going to keep attracting people until they realize that it's no better here than where they come from. That's going to take a while...."
Yep, because their lives back in their countries seems to be one of utter destitution and fear living in very high crime areas. At least here, they feel that will have the basics and some security. Plus, some may even imagine a life potentially of some afflluence and comfort