[Ibon]

And population reduction is something we, as a species, can not abide.

Oui, what a mess.

It's a short term mess. And actually we do abide to population reduction by paradoxically bringing it on by default. So in this crazy perverted way as we zoom along in collective inaction this is actually tacit support to bring about population correcting consequences.

Most people actually want to surrender control over to a higher being which for some may be god, for others the overshoot predator. At a critical point the individual loses his relevancy as the collective becomes an unmanageable juggernaut. At that point the individual surrenders control to the deity of his choice. For those with religious persuasions this can be the invisible man in the sky. To those with ecological persuasions this can be the overshoot predator.

Which one is more real?

I hardly even give this much of a thought anymore because thoughts and even actions are no longer relevant to the reality that is unfolding. This takes you back to your friends and loved ones and to your garden in the backyard, the boat, the little piece of land you protect. Nothing else matters.

Discussions or on line forums about this topic is just a bunch of chattering noise that is like a flywheel not connected to a drive chain. It spins but does no work.

[Newfie]

Still good to air out thoughts, not able to do that much elsewhere.

[Ibon]

Baha, That is inspiring and you are a testament of something I have often mentioned. It is the erosion of organic community that has caused the divisiveness. And when your community is eroded you look to social media as a replacement which then takes you down the anti social road toward tribal divisiveness. In your case you have developed resiliency by integrating deeply across the political spectrum in your community. Being involved in empowering people toward self reliance in energy only enhances this. So you are an exception, an early adapter, an example.

This is totally relevant to the greater question of human overshoot. Early adapters put resiliency above consumption, above accumulating wealth and status. It is in the act of service to others and ones community that one finds value and well being, not in how big your stock portfolio is. Contrast yourself and the tone of your posts to Cog for example who like a rat in a hole focuses on his stock portfolio as he mires in the swamp of divisiveness and anger and grievances. He is a fossil, you are riding the arch of history and change.

You strengthen the nation with the fiber of community while those living in the isolation of individualism will fall prey to populists promoting empty nationalism. As constraints start to squeeze this demarcation will become even clearer.

Stay on the high road Baha.

[Cog]

Vote nationalism not the dead end of communism and socialism.

Baha is a useful idiot for communist propaganda who they will willingly execute when his usefulness to the party is over.

[Newfie]

Baja,

I’ve taken steps in a similar direction. I’ve sought to institute myself into a community in a place that is likely to care relatively well. And I’ve striven to remain flexible in my plans.

Being able to view the system from the outside is critical to clear headed thinking. When you take that distant observer view you can start to see how the many pieces are all starting to wobble, and withou knowing which keystone will go first or when, seeing that the whole mess is unstable.

I think many people “get” this on some subliminal level, even if they don’t talk about it.

But there are still far too many who are caught up in short sighted bickering over silly labels. They are corrosive to the whole. The left/right stereo bleating of sheep who can only follow but never have origional thoughts. This is the stuff of CNN/FOX. While they think the dicothomy is left/right oriented the real difference is between the chaos of the opera pits and the scenic overlook.

[Cog]

You don't even vote Newfie and then complain how no one in government represents you. What is wrong with this picture?

[Newfie]

Show me where I said that. I don’t buy into their drivel. It’s interesting theater, and interesting to discuss, kinda like sports teams. But it’s irrelevant to the way the world moves.

No one in the government represents me whether I vote or not. Our votes are irrelevant because all high public officials bend knee to the same interests. Essentially the NY monied elite.

Neither party addresses in any manner my 5 top concerns. No one in power has the least sense of biophilia, they are disconnected. It’s like watching autisitc children play chess. Perhaps entertaining for a bit, but nothing I want to join.

If you want to start a thread on the power of voting in the USA, please do. I’ll join the discussion. But this thread is about immigration.

[Cog]

One party wants open borders, the elimination of ice, and millions of illegals flooding the usa. Voting is absolutely germane to immigration.

[Newfie]

Not at all germane to this topic of 2°C warming.

I think we have an immigration thread.

Ah ha, found it.

the-immigration-legal-and-illegal-thread-merged-t29992-180.html

Strikes me as a relevant thread, I recall other recent posts on the topic that should have gone there.

[onlooker]

Well said guys. The political governing structure worldwide is hopelessly corrupt and ineffectual and offer zero plans for adaptation or even survival. Quite the opposite, they dare not mention the underlying limits to growth issues that are truly germane to the coming contraction. Instead, they offer the same empty jargon of economic growth and codified left/right prescriptions to the ailments of society. In fact these prescriptions do nothing to establish any coherent reply to the underlying profound problems. That is why Newfie comparing to a circus is so apt.

So, that is why the ideas you guys offer and your insight is so keenly astute and accurate. Individual and community preparation and await the now only effective remedy. That being what Ibon coined so eloquently, the Overshoot Predator who will instill order in the disorder of human affairs, though in ways not necessarily to our liking.

[jawagord]

A mere half a degree could spell the difference between the Arctic being ice-free once a decade and once a century; between coral reefs being almost entirely wiped out and up to 30 percent hanging on; and between a third of the world’s population being exposed to extreme heat waves and a tenth.

Ecosystems: Coral reefs have already been battered by warming and acidifying oceans, with widespread bleaching in recent years. Reefs have one of the bleaker future outcomes: a temperature rise of 2 degrees C would eliminate 99 percent of today’s reefs whereas 1.5 degrees C could save a sliver of them, with losses between 70 and 90 percent. Other animals face major losses in places to live. The amount of climatically suitable habitat lost by vertebrates and plants would double from a 1.5- to 2-degree C regime, and triple for invertebrates.

REPORT

Corals grow in cold water, who new?

Corals get damaged/decimated by fishing, who new?

Corals regrowing despite CO2 acidification (a false made up term as oceans have an alkaline pH), who new?

Corals have survive on earth for over 500 million years of climate change, who new?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-sco ... -1.4878932

[Newfie]

Recently the Trump Adinistration noted that the world will blow through the remaining carbon and stopping it is not technical or financially feasible.

See para. 5.4.4.1 (page 5-30) in the linked report.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.dot.g ... deis_0.pdf

Here is an associated WAPO piece on this report.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washin ... story.html

IMHO this is an opening for climate activists to engage Washington directly on this matter.

I’m suprised that none of the activist groups are picking up on this.

I would have expected to see the brighter lights suggest letters or petitions along the lines of:

Dear xxxxx,

The admin says it’s not techchnically feasible and financially impractical to avert 4°C warming. That being the case please tell me in detail what you are doing to right this situation. Are you supporting technical research? If so which and to what level. How do you propose to protect the economy from the expected effect of this warming? How will you protect Manhattan? What about the Naval Base in Norfolk? Do you intend to relocate Miami and at what cost? Many more questions come to mind but I think you get the gist.

To quote a great American Founder “A stitch in time saves nine.” What are you stitching up before our butt is exposed?

[Revi]

So the Trump Administration basically said that we need to keep going until we're all dead. Great...We wouldn't want to do anything that hurts the "Economy". What's the point of an economy anyway?

[Newfie]

Well I don’t know exactly they said that.

What they said was CAFE standards are nibbling around the edges of the problem which they accepted as the IPCC report.

They didn’t say anything about how to address the problem but did note that a fix was both technically and financially not feasible.

But that leaves a lot of questions on the table:
What is feasible?
How much damage to the economy do we have to do?
What are you Mr. Government official doing in light of this revelation.

My Wife went a letter Senator Tomey (R-PA) asking his response, no answer yet.

[Revi]

It turns out the oceans are absorbing heat at a much higher rate than previously thought. I can see it in Maine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/energy-e ... f77664e2a1

[Ibon]

A student last year who works on his post doc at the Smithsonian here in Panama is looking at shifting vegetation patterns with altitude. I never will forget his comment, "It is so awesome to be able to actually witness in real time, in the field, the effects of climate change". That singular comment of course does not reflect his whole position regarding climate change but it was startling to me how he was feeling awesome about the scientific opportunity to witness in real time the changes.

Same with the oceans ability to absorb heat. Isn't this an awesome opportunity to see how our biosphere adapts and adjusts.

Not that I embrace this orientation but there is something perhaps noteworthy in this clinical and objective witnessing of the changes that are baked in the cake that you can do nothing about

[Newfie]

Yeah, I wake up every morning and look in the mirror and see a new wrinkle, or find a new arthritic joint and say: “This is just awesome to watch my body approach death on a daily basis in real time. Just sooo awesome!”

[Subjectivist]

Well I don’t know exactly they said that.

What they said was CAFE standards are nibbling around the edges of the problem which they accepted as the IPCC report.

They didn’t say anything about how to address the problem but did note that a fix was both technically and financially not feasible.

But that leaves a lot of questions on the table:
What is feasible?
How much damage to the economy do we have to do?
What are you Mr. Government official doing in light of this revelation.

My Wife went a letter Senator Tomey (R-PA) asking his response, no answer yet.

I will wager a hundred brownie points all she gets back is a standard form letter thanking her for expressing her concerns.

[Newfie]

You would win that bet easily. In fact I’m not sure she even got to deliver it, last I heard was a bunch of German cursing about his PITA web site. Maybe they blocked her?