baha wrote:.........
In addition, my life as a solar thermal repair technician has lead me to HATE solar thermal It breaks a lot, people don't understand it, normal plumbers won't touch it. It will not add to the value of my house so I'm not going to spend any more money on it. After I replace the roof I will put one 4x10 panel on the roof to heat domestic water. I'll sell the rest of the stuff, or keep it for spares. You should see my barn
Live and Learn...
Ghung - I may put one of those electric floor heaters in the bathroom.
KJ said; "Lastly, the Doomstead does appear to be less and less likely to be needed.
I was under the impression that grid tied Solar PV systems go down during a grid failure for safety reasons: The utility doesn't want your Solar PV array to electrocute a lineman working on the grid to bring it back online. How did you still have power during the blackout?baha wrote:I know the MSM is talking about the power outages. There are trees down everywhere. My grid connection went down last Thursday at 4pm...right as the storm was leaving. The winds on the backside were worse. The grid is still down. Duke power says it may be fixed Monday. I have about 50 pounds of meat still nicely frozen and my satellite Internet is up.
When Peakoil.com went down I was starting to think this might be TEOTWAWKI. But it was just practice
My prior experiments have paid off. I disabled half my PV system when it became clear that this is a long term outage. No need for over-production now. The battery is still charged by lunch and I have been going down to 65% State of Charge at night.
It's funny. The MSM can't stop talking about power outages...before the storm it was the potential for outages, then they started counting them. People who have wells are without water. You cannot live without water. What good is your fancy house without water? Clearly everyone knows that electricity is a priority for your wellbeing.
But what do they do about it? Bitch and Moan!! When will you hook me back up? How will you pay for my new infrastructure? You ruined all my food!
There are many 100's of thousands of people out there right now who wish they had their own Personal Power Plant.
Nuff said...
Does solar work in a blackout?Does solar work in a power outage?
There are two reasons that ordinary grid-tied solar will not work during a grid failure. The first is a technical reason and the second is a safety and regulatory issue.
First and foremost is the technical reason. The electronics that control a solar electric system constantly adjust voltage and current in order to keep the panels operating at their most efficient and powerful operating point through a range of varying sunlight conditions. To do this, the system needs to be able to produce quantities of power that are not dependent on how much your house is actually using at the time. In a grid-connected system, that excess power is put back onto the grid for others to use, and your utility credits you on your bill for that power.
Solar power output varies directly with sunlight levels. So, even if you disregard the need for efficiency, connecting this variable resource directly to your home’s electrical system would cause your lights to blink, damage your refrigerator, and wreak havoc on your computers and television.
The second reason that solar shuts down during a blackout is safety.
During a power outage, the power utility sends out repair crews to find and fix the points of failure. The linemen and women can be jeopardized if there is a local power generator (like a solar array) leaking power onto the grid lines. Therefore, utility rules mandate that in the event of a power outage, solar arrays must automatically shut down. Solar systems have detectors that sense whether power is coming across the grid, and whenever grid power is down, they automatically shut down too, to protect utility workers.
I think KJ is right baha. Grid energy really is cheaper. I think your profession has you biased in favor of rooftop Solar PV. However if you took an honest appraisal of the numbers of utility vs rooftop Solar PV you would see that rooftop solar doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless you are dipping into a subsidy trough or you are out in the boonies without a grid connection.baha wrote:I will still maintain that if you took all the infrastructure away (like in a storm) and then priced out different options to replace it. Solar and batteries is very competitive with miles and miles of copper and aluminum wires, poles, transformers, and lineman.
You keep living on the successes of the past...I have already moved into the future.
Utility-Scale Solar PV System Cost Fell Nearly 30% Last YearThe installed cost of solar power fell to record lows in the first quarter of 2017 because of the continuing decline in photovoltaic (PV) module and inverter prices, higher module efficiency, and lower labor costs, according to an analysis by the U.S. Department of Energy’s (DOE) National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL).
While utility-scale solar costs have declined nearly 30 percent, residential- and commercial-scale solar system prices have lagged behind at 6 percent and 15 percent reductions, respectively. The report shows that the levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) benchmarks without subsidies for the first quarter of 2017 fell to between 12.9 and 16.7 cents per kilowatt-hour (kWh) for residential systems, 9.2-12.0 cents a kWh for commercial systems, 5.0-6.6 cents a kWh for utility-scale fixed-tilt systems, and 4.4-6.1 cents a kWh for utility-scale one-axis tracking systems.
Why roof-top solar panels really don't make sensePutting aside the fairness issue there is also a very strong argument against residential roof-top solar panels based upon basic economics.
If you live in the suburbs your street probably has dozens of single family homes of different sizes and shapes with various configurations of roofs covered by a variety of materials. Imagine if you will a veritable army of roofers crawling over these houses, attaching frames and mounting solar panels. If you think about that for a moment you will have to come to the conclusion that it is not an overly efficient operation. Lots of up and down ladders time and safety setup time and not so much install solar panel time. Now imagine that same scenario when it is raining or snowing - more than a little scary for everyone involved. Compare that to utility-scale solar where uniform racks can be laid out and solar panels mounted from the ground in a matter of minutes.
Recognizing that the public and electrical utility customers are footing a large part of this installation bill which configuration would seem to provide the best return on investment? It would be hard to argue against the utility-scale solar panels.
What about efficiency in terms of making the best use of the solar resource?
In the case of residential roof-top solar there are likely to be plenty of other buildings, trees, and hills nearby so that the solar panels are often in the shade. Almost all of these solar panels will also be mounted rigidly, most commonly at the angle that is the roof pitch. This will not be the optimal angle for most sites and latitudes.
Utility-scale solar panels can easily be equipped with single or dual-axis tracking which very significantly increases the power generated under all circumstances. They will also be located in large open areas where they will be in direct sunlight for most of the day.
Battery backup?
Having small, deep-cycle batteries as backup for the solar panels might be an expensive necessity at Possum Lodge but in suburban North America that type of installation doesn't make a lot of sense - which is probably why almost nobody does it.
Regular maintenance?
The home owner that installs the roof-top solar panels will probably be pretty excited about them and will maintain them to some degree. But as houses change hands that commitment could fade; as leaves, moss, and dirt accumulate through the years who is going up on the roof-top to polish up those solar panels. Nobody is my guess. So the overall efficiency of the panels is bound to decline over time. The same with local battery storage if it has been installed.
Finally, the presence of roof-top solar panels has been identified as a significant danger to fire fighters.
All in all, looking at roof-top solar panels perfectly objectively they just don't make sense. There are better ways to spend those dollars as we transition away from a hydro-carbon economy.
Big solar is leaving rooftop systems in the dustSolar power is on pace for the first time this year to contribute more new electricity to the grid than will any other form of energy – a feat driven more by economics than green mandates.
The cost of electricity from large-scale solar installations now is comparable to and sometimes cheaper than natural gas-fired power, even without incentives aimed at promoting environmentally friendly power, according to industry players and outside cost studies.
Buoyed by appeals to self reliance and environmental stewardship, as well as government subsidies, the early solar industry was dominated by rooftop panels that powered individual homes and businesses. But such small-scale installations are expensive, requiring hefty incentives to make them attractive to homeowners. Today, large systems that sell directly to utilities dominate. They are expected to account for more than 70 percent of new solar added to the grid this year.
The success of large-scale solar has raised questions about the wisdom of continuing incentives for rooftop installations, which remain far more expensive than most other forms of electricity. Unsubsidized utility-scale solar power costs $50 to $70 per megawatt-hour (or 5 to 7 cents a kilowatt hour), compared with $52 to $78 for the most efficient type of gas plant, according to a 2015 study by investment bank Lazard. Generating power from residential rooftop panels is far more expensive, ranging from $184 to $300 a MWh before subsidies.
Large-scale solar is taking off even in states without policies promoting green power. Georgia, for example, was the sixth-largest U.S. solar market last year with very little rooftop solar. “We don’t need mandates,” said Lauren “Bubba” McDonald, a member of the Georgia Public Service Commission, who is widely credited with helping jumpstart the state’s solar industry. Utilities in states like North Carolina, Texas and Alabama also are building large-scale solar facilities because it makes financial sense. “We are seeing large swaths of centralized utility scale solar be procured primarily because of how cost competitive it is.”
SUBSIDY SCRUTINY
Rooftop installers like SolarCity enjoyed rapid growth thanks in part to a marketing message that peddles the romance and freedom of generating emissions-free power at home. And, for homeowners in states with favorable policies, rooftop panels can be a good investment, ultimately offering savings. But the math only works in places with so-called “net metering” laws, which require utilities to buy the electricity rooftop panels generate at prices far above what they pay for centralized power. Rooftop solar’s dependence on incentives is a key reason investors have punished solar stocks in the last year.
Kub said; "I was under the impression that grid tied Solar PV systems go down during a grid failure for safety reasons: The utility doesn't want your Solar PV array to electrocute a lineman working on the grid to bring it back online. How did you still have power during the blackout?
Severing ties with utilities isn't as easy as cutting the cable cord"As far as being completely off grid, it's kind of a foreign thought to me because you've always had to rely on the utilities," Fleischmann said. "We could do that, but at what cost?"
Even the leader in the residential electricity storage industry — and supplier of Fleischmann's $26,000 battery system — doesn't see consumers defecting from their utilities.
"True off-grid is ridiculous," said Blake Richetta, senior vice president of Sonnen Inc., who oversees the German battery maker's U.S. arm that is based in North Hollywood. Not only is it costly to turn your home into a virtual power plant, Richetta said, but it makes the consumer's home an island that would be unable to tap the central power system if the off-grid operation fails.
Does An Off Grid Solar System Make Sense For You?why would any one be crazy enough to plump for an off grid system?
Here are 4 reasons you might choose to go off grid:
1) There is no electricity grid where you live. Perhaps you live in the middle of the Simpson Desert like my Uncle Dave (seriously, he does!) or somewhere else equally remote. Hey, there’s no shortage of places like that in this big ol’ country of ours!
2) The nearest grid connection is a long way from your home and your local gougers electricity network wants to charge you an arm and a leg to connect you. In this case it may actually be cheaper to go off grid. Although be aware that a decent sized off grid system is going to start at approx. $25,000.
3) You are connected to the grid but you suffer frequent blackouts that really cause you grief. You want a system that can run when the grid is down and you understand that a standard grid connect solar system cannot operate when there is a power cut – unless it has a big and expensive battery backup system.
4) You’re crazy. Your house is already connected to the grid. Blackouts aren’t a problem, but you just like the sound of going off grid. You think it makes you more “independent” and protects you from the forthcoming apocalypse. In fact you’ve already got a big shed to put the batteries in. It’s the same one where you stored all the canned food in readiness for the Y2K bug / end of the world last time round – and you don’t mind spending $25k on an off grid system that would only cost $8k if it was grid connected. Or maintaining it 10 times more frequently than a grid-connect system. Or buying new batteries every few years.
I guess what I am trying to say is that unless 1) or 2) or 3) above applies, then it is kind of economically and environmentally insane to insist on an off grid solution. Economically insane due to the cost being 3x higher. Environmentally insane due to all those batteries you need to buy (and replace periodically) which contain a lot of really nasty chemicals.
kublikhan wrote:I am not anti-solar Ghung. I just recognize the fact that from an economical point of view, it makes more sense to go utility solar vs rooftop solar. It's much cheaper. Of course there are exceptions such as:
1. Those who don't have a grid connection in the first place.
2. Those who are happy to suck the government tit of subsides.
Independence? That's a nice fairytale. Unfortunately grid connection or no, offgridweenies are still dependent on civilization just like the gridweenies are.
And as I said earlier, the financial argument for cutting the cord and going completely off grid doesn't make sense.Severing ties with utilities isn't as easy as cutting the cable cord"As far as being completely off grid, it's kind of a foreign thought to me because you've always had to rely on the utilities," Fleischmann said. "We could do that, but at what cost?"
Even the leader in the residential electricity storage industry — and supplier of Fleischmann's $26,000 battery system — doesn't see consumers defecting from their utilities.
"True off-grid is ridiculous," said Blake Richetta, senior vice president of Sonnen Inc., who oversees the German battery maker's U.S. arm that is based in North Hollywood. Not only is it costly to turn your home into a virtual power plant, Richetta said, but it makes the consumer's home an island that would be unable to tap the central power system if the off-grid operation fails.Does An Off Grid Solar System Make Sense For You?why would any one be crazy enough to plump for an off grid system?
Here are 4 reasons you might choose to go off grid:
1) There is no electricity grid where you live. Perhaps you live in the middle of the Simpson Desert like my Uncle Dave (seriously, he does!) or somewhere else equally remote. Hey, there’s no shortage of places like that in this big ol’ country of ours!
2) The nearest grid connection is a long way from your home and your local gougers electricity network wants to charge you an arm and a leg to connect you. In this case it may actually be cheaper to go off grid. Although be aware that a decent sized off grid system is going to start at approx. $25,000.
3) You are connected to the grid but you suffer frequent blackouts that really cause you grief. You want a system that can run when the grid is down and you understand that a standard grid connect solar system cannot operate when there is a power cut – unless it has a big and expensive battery backup system.
4) You’re crazy. Your house is already connected to the grid. Blackouts aren’t a problem, but you just like the sound of going off grid. You think it makes you more “independent” and protects you from the forthcoming apocalypse. In fact you’ve already got a big shed to put the batteries in. It’s the same one where you stored all the canned food in readiness for the Y2K bug / end of the world last time round – and you don’t mind spending $25k on an off grid system that would only cost $8k if it was grid connected. Or maintaining it 10 times more frequently than a grid-connect system. Or buying new batteries every few years.
I guess what I am trying to say is that unless 1) or 2) or 3) above applies, then it is kind of economically and environmentally insane to insist on an off grid solution. Economically insane due to the cost being 3x higher. Environmentally insane due to all those batteries you need to buy (and replace periodically) which contain a lot of really nasty chemicals.
So it's an environmental disaster, financial disaster, and just a straight up pain in the ass for most of us. But hey, you can always feel superior to the gridweenies about some illusional "independence" so there's that right?
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