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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 02 May 2018, 15:27:37

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/diet-fit ... ns-n542886

"When it comes to climate change:

following dietary recommendations would cut food-related emissions by 29 percent,

adopting vegetarian diets would cut them by 63 percent


and vegan diets by 70 percent.
"
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 02 May 2018, 15:34:46

too much ruffage would actually increase emissions as per [smilie=XXsmoker.gif] [smilie=5badair.gif] But no smoking allowed! :x A pure water diet would cure human emissions 100% sure :)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 03 May 2018, 16:26:59

dohboi wrote:https://www.nbcnews.com/better/diet-fitness/vegan-eating-would-slash-cut-food-s-global-warming-emissions-n542886

"When it comes to climate change:

following dietary recommendations would cut food-related emissions by 29 percent,

adopting vegetarian diets would cut them by 63 percent


and vegan diets by 70 percent.
"

Just greatly reducing eating beef would help a lot, given the huge amount of land used per cow compared to, say, a chicken.

Why not try to get some realistic change made instead of endlessly pushing for everyone to become a Vegan. Because, realistically, when you can't get people to drive less, how realistic is forcing mass veganism on people?

Also, if cattle are a huge proportion of the problem, then you get a lot of "bang for the buck" by reducing beef consumption. If you're going to insist on veganism or even vegetarianism -- the vast majority of folks will simply ignore you.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Thu 03 May 2018, 17:12:05

I can safely say that I would rather abandon car ownership than give up eating meat. It just tastes too good. The vegans eventually give up anyway, the studies show that 84% will start to eat meat again. I also would like to point out that there are people who are diabetics and meat and other animal products instead of carbohydrates are the only option for them to control blood sugar spikes through diet.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 03 May 2018, 19:10:59

I have to say that Yonnipun post is a good example of how difficult it us to sway people to change their lifestyle to one they perceive as inferior to their current one. This is not to single out Y, as I myself even being given ample opportunity would be reluctant to change a few lifestyle preferences. Certainly everyone would need to make "sacrifices" As for the debate about Veg vs Meat eaters, it is apt to point out that this thread has attempted to point out the various negative ramifications of meat eating of which the ethical one is the most compelling. While rich world citizens get to eat meat, poor people in poor countries cannot afford sufficient food to maintain adequate health. And yes Overpopulation is a core overshoot issue but let us not pretend this situation is not occurring and not at its heart an ethical issue. Of course the entire issue of money and human quality of life is an ethical issue
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby baha » Thu 03 May 2018, 20:16:38

I am surrounded by Cattle. There is 100 or more acres behind me that they just grow hay and bail it for the winter. There is 77 acres next to me that has about 100 head of cattle. It's spring :) There are 20 - 30 calves.

The land is not suitable for farming. It's mostly clay. But the grass grows good. I buy 1/4 cow at a time of local grass fed beef and it is heavenly. I can't even eat the stuff they have a Walmart. There is no flavor. But I bet I eat half what most people do, and more veggies :)

Cows and grass have been around for a long time. The problem is industrialization. And grain feed lots :( Look around, there are local sources of sustainable and healthy meat. My local farmers market has sources for all types of meat raised and prepared locally.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 04 May 2018, 05:12:21

"greatly reducing eating beef would help a lot"

I agree.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 May 2018, 06:47:27

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/m ... al-welfare

if all Americans substituted beans for beef, the country would be close to meeting the greenhouse gas goals
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 07 May 2018, 06:50:18

dohboi wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/07/true-cost-of-eating-meat-environment-health-animal-welfare

if all Americans substituted beans for beef, the country would be close to meeting the greenhouse gas goals


Did they account for all the methane that will be produced from all those farts?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Cog » Mon 07 May 2018, 12:51:37

I don't have any greenhouse goals and neither does the USA.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 May 2018, 14:31:31

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys are killin' me!

No, really. You. Are. Killing. Me. (And everything else on the planet :twisted: )
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 14 May 2018, 22:43:38

https://medium.com/@drewfrench/grass-fed-beef-the-most-vegan-item-in-the-supermarket-8c46b45a0d47

If the primary goal of veganism is to reduce suffering, then many of us are vegan, and a diet composed of primarily grass-fed beef and dairy, as well as free-range chicken eggs and perennial plants products, is the most vegan diet that I can think of. I diet based on grass that is never tilled or disturbed allows nature to grow and flourish without our annual agricultural blades, machines, and chemicals.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 May 2018, 23:32:00

Ah, more of the usual bs. Sorry, not buying it.

In any case, this thread is not about reducing the suffering of specific individual animals (or plants,if that's a thing), but of the systemic threat that meat eating poses to the planet.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Tue 15 May 2018, 01:11:05

dohboi wrote:Ah, more of the usual bs. Sorry, not buying it.

In any case, this thread is not about reducing the suffering of specific individual animals (or plants,if that's a thing), but of the systemic threat that meat eating poses to the planet.



A diet based on grass that is never tilled or disturbed allows nature to grow and flourish without our annual agricultural blades, machines, and chemicals.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 30 May 2018, 03:56:47

(Is anyone else having trouble getting on this site recently?)

Yes, Y. If you live on a diet based on 'grass' that is grains and those grains are grown through no-till ag, you are indeed living a low impact life wrt diet at least, and especially if the food is mostly local.

Meanwhile, at the systemic level, the meat industry is actively impeding GW efforts:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... mate-goals

Meat and fish multinationals...world’s largest protein producers failing to measure or report emissions, despite accounting for 14.5% of greenhouse gases


Three out of four (72%) of the world’s biggest meat and fish companies provided little or no evidence to show that they were measuring or reporting their emissions, despite the fact that, as the report points out, livestock production represents 14.5% of all greenhouse gas emissions.

“It is clear that the meat and dairy industries have remained out of public scrutiny in terms of their significant climate impact. For this to change, these companies must be held accountable for the emissions and they must have credible, independently verifiable emissions reductions strategy,” said Shefali Sharma, director of the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy European office.


(Hey, I just noticed that quote is by Shefali, someone I have met and has been to my house!)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 30 May 2018, 05:40:00

So if we all quit eating meat then we can afford another billion folks! What a great idea.

Dohboi, if you want to get me behind your program you have to demonstrate how your proposals will make some overall benefit.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 30 May 2018, 08:58:39

Good point, Newfie.

Dohboi, decide once and for all if you actually believe that human overshoot is THE PROBLEM. I have no doubt of it, none at all. GHG emissions, petroleum consumption, environmental degradation, renewable energy supplies, etc. etc. - NONE of the things we discuss extensively here would even constitue a problem - let alone an intractable problem, if the Earth were simply occupied by a sustainable number of humans. Those other problems and every other one you care to name, are the symptoms of human overshoot.

I have talked about the general goals of the engineering profession before. Essentially that would be to make more goods and energy while consuming less resources. The goals of the medical profession are to overcome diseases, to overcome human infertility and increase the birth rate, and to enhance human nutrition, all in the interests of producing more people that in turn live longer, healthier lives. The goals of organizations such as the United Nations, NATO, the WHO, and various organizations promoting cultural exchange is to allow more people on the face of the planet without having them slaughtering one another in wars.

Doubtless you have opinions about all of these things. I doubt that your opinions resemble mine a great deal, in fact I am now pointing out the contradictory nature of your expressed opinions. If all of the world's population lived and ate and consumed energy as do Americans, the World population would be between one and two billion humans, and not the 7.6 billion it actually is. In fact, all of the various things that you have claimed are "killing the planet" are also effectively limiting the human population, which is a GOOD THING.

I would say that if you could bring about the cessation of all the things that you have identified as problems, if you could successfully persuade the entire human population to consume only a proportionate share of resources, that somewhere between 10 and 30 billion humans would exist on this planet, and all would be dying from too little food, too little energy, and too little of everything needed to live.

In other words, you are promoting the continued destruction of the planet, and the end of all things. It makes more sense to me to promote the lifestyles of the developed nations, the cities, the suburbs, the eating of meat, the generation of more GHGs, the conflict and slaughter of different cultures/religions/nations. Because those destructive things limit the numbers of humans before the planet is completely and irretrievably broken by their presence, and natural population constraints are causing the death rate to equal the reproduction rate.

Here is where you have to overcome your academic background and consider that we are merely apes, behaving as apes behave, on the planet of the apes. Once you have accepted the true nature of humans, perhaps this can be avoided:
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...because whether you consciously realize it or not, you are promoting the further overshoot of the human population, when you advocate the things that you do and have consistently done. Your world views are bedded in the traditional academic beliefs of "devinely inspired" humanity, you are denying the lessons of Anthropology, which in effect is saying that we are apes, behaving as apes behave.

You academic types need to get your "house in order", and to integrate the new scientific discoveries of the nature of humans, now more than a half century old, into your views of the world. It is after all, not the place that your human prejudices would have it be.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 30 May 2018, 10:03:34

Newf, you post had no relevance to what was just posted nor to the title of the thread, so I'm not sure how to respond.

If you accept that AGW is a real and present threat, then you should be concerned not just about direct CO2 emissions from burning fossil-death-fuels, but also from the ways that the meat industry greatly exacerbates the problem.

If you (or anyone) don't accept the reality of AGW, I don't really have much to say to you.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 30 May 2018, 10:34:03

Consider my prior message, and answer the question. If the AGW theory is correct, then the climate changes that result from a civilization that spews GHG's willy-nilly into the atmoshere is a good thing that constrains human reproduction within natural bounds.

I do not doubt that you and others believe that the theory of AGW is correct. We know each other's positions on that, no need to have further discussions. Now I ask that you address the fundamental contradiction: the conservation of the natural resources of this planet and the promotion of human lifestyle changes to lessen the impact of humans on the environment, are contradictory goals.

In 2013 when I joined discussions here at Peak Oil, I told you the same exact thing. The interests of humanity and the continued health of our planet's ecosystem are opposed goals. For them to actually coincide, we would have to overcome our ape natures and behave as intelligent and thoughtful conservators of the environment.

Until that fundamental change in human nature occurs - which would involve the education of 7+ billion humans who don't even ever THINK of such things as they struggle to survive in the world that exists, your beliefs doom our planet.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 30 May 2018, 14:01:15

Dohboi
My answer is related to the theas title. Just because you named a thread title does not make the premis a fact.

People are killing the planet, especially people who want to blame everyone else and not recognize the primary driver, over population.

Humans are omnivours. Eating meat is part of our natural diet. If our population was in balance with the resource base this would not be an issue.
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