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THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby baha » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 06:56:11

There is so much could'a, would'a, should'a in that article is has no meaning. The FF industry is the last people who have a clue about an energy transition. Their first and worst assumption is continued BAU.

In order for them to enter the alt industry they need to think like a startup...They would have to dedicate huge amounts of capital and give zero dividends until they have a decent foothold. It just ain't gonna happen. Their shareholders won't allow it.

I strongly feel there will be so many curve balls thrown at us in the next 20 years, any 20 year projection is useless...The FF industry needs to do what they do for as long as they can and let people with vision worry about the future.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby baha » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 20:13:05

baha wrote:They would have to dedicate huge amounts of capital and give zero dividends until they have a decent foothold. It just ain't gonna happen. Their shareholders won't allow it.


OK, There you go. No sooner said than done.

GE announced today they will half their dividends and reallocate capital. Including a major investment in wind energy and batteries. It seems the new CEO may actually have vision. But the shareholders are not happy.

Here is a stodgy old company that just happens to be in the right industry...Electricity...If they can trim the fat and re-focus their efforts they may survive. And I may invest...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.
I will see your google and raise you an infinity!

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In 2017, The Myth of Powering the World with 100% Renewables

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 05 Jan 2018, 20:12:12

When thinking about 2017, it is easy to see the bankruptcy of Westinghouse and the subsequent cancellation of its Summer project in South Carolina as this year’s big issue. But as the year has drawn to a close, the continuation of its AP1000 project at Plant Vogtle in Georgia has been approved by the regulator and there is every expectation that Westinghouse will emerge from bankruptcy in 2018. So while important, to us there is a much more important defining issue for 2017. It is the very real start of a movement that recognizes that powering the world with 100% renewables is a myth – and that chasing a myth will not get us to our global goal of meeting the world’s increasing energy needs while reducing carbon emissions and successfully combating climate change. There were a number of defining moments in


In 2017, The Myth of Powering the World with 100% Renewables Has Started to Crack
Peak oil in 2020: And here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 06 Jan 2018, 19:48:52

About freaking time! Intermittent sources of power require massive storage capacity which is freaking expensive if you want a modern American lifestyle like 99% of the world population does.
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Re: In 2017, The Myth of Powering the World with 100% Renewa

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 06 Jan 2018, 21:01:00

AdamB wrote:
It is the very real start of a movement that recognizes that powering the world with 100% renewables is a myth – and that chasing a myth will not get us to our global goal of meeting the world’s increasing energy needs while reducing carbon emissions and successfully combating climate change.


In 2017, The Myth of Powering the World with 100% Renewables Has Started to Crack


Hmmm. And according to the WEO graph in the article, in 2040 most of the world aside from the EU STILL projected to be burning coal for OVER 20% of their electricity production.

Either the greens ala Tony Seba et al or the standard predictors re burning fossil fuels en masse for electricity generation as far as the eye can see are very very wrong about the future economics of Solar PV in the coming two decades.

Else, why in HELL is virtually everyone burning SO MUCH coal over 20 years from now if its so dirty and terrible? At least surely moving to almost all (seemingly dirt cheap) natural gas would be far better if Solar PV isn't going to get much cheaper as the greens forecast. (I understand this in the third world which has limited capital and wealth per capita, perhaps, but not in the first. And if PV backed up by batteries is going to be so cheap as to put most utilities out of business, then what gives?

AdamB, you tend to talk sense and facts in these areas. Any insight? Because something doesn't come REMOTELY close to adding up here.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 04 Feb 2018, 15:09:49

“Fossil-free steel” plant planned for Sweden [depending, of course, on where the hydrogen itself comes from! :) 8O ]

Process would use iron ore pellets; and hydrogen rather than coke or coal. Emissions would be water instead of CO2.

SSAB, LKAB AND VATTENFALL TO BUILD A GLOBALLY-UNIQUE PILOT PLANT FOR FOSSIL-FREE STEEL
https://corporate.vattenfall.com/press- ... ree-steel/

Animation available here: https://twitter.com/unfccc/status/960171351410581505
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 04 Feb 2018, 15:40:46

dohboi wrote:“Fossil-free steel” plant planned for Sweden [depending, of course, on where the hydrogen itself comes from! :) 8O ]

Process would use iron ore pellets; and hydrogen rather than coke or coal. Emissions would be water instead of CO2.

SSAB, LKAB AND VATTENFALL TO BUILD A GLOBALLY-UNIQUE PILOT PLANT FOR FOSSIL-FREE STEEL
https://corporate.vattenfall.com/press- ... ree-steel/

Animation available here: https://twitter.com/unfccc/status/960171351410581505


If they use Hydroelectricity/Geothermal electricity to split water to get the H2 gas needed then maybe this will be a carbon free process. I am willing to be impressed but first show me where the root energy supply to manufacture the Hydrogen comes from.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby dissident » Wed 22 Aug 2018, 17:57:19

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3584454/

Peroxide is basically the perfect fuel.

1) It can be stored long term and does not require compression like H2 which also happens to leak at serious rates from any container.

2) Combustion of H2O2 does not produce NOx as does the burning of NH3. And CO2 from the combustion of CH4.

3) Fuel cells can use H2O2 as both the reducer and oxidizer and do not require a membrane.

4) Catalysts can be used to produce H2O2. The large energy penalty of electrolysis is avoided. There are are catalysts for producing H2 as well, but H2 has too many minuses as an energy carrier.

------------

5) This is not a joke: currently areas around heavy traffic can be partly O2 depleted thanks to combustion using gasoline and diesel. At 19.5% concentrations, O2 becomes biologically deficient for humans. H2O2 fuel cell combustion releases O2.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 12:49:14

Except that hydrogen peroxide is rather difficult to manufacture. Hydrogen peroxide - Wikipedia describes two main methods.

Electrolysis of ammonium bisulfate. It makes ammonium peroxysulfate, when can then be hydrolyzed to ammonium bisulfate and H2O2.

Reduction and self-oxidation of anthraquinone. The reduction part is combination of anthraquinone with hydrogen using a palladium catalyst. Adding oxygen then oxidizes it, releasing H2O2.

Decomposing H2O2 releases a rather paltry amount of energy: 2.9 MJ/kg. Energy density - Wikipedia more than a good lithium-ion battery and less than a chemical explosive. It lists diesel fuel as having 48 MJ/kg and other hydrocarbon fuels as not much different, but correcting for its oxygen consumption gives 10.8 MJ/kg. I used
(CH2) + (3/2)*O2 -> CO2 + H2O

Carrying H2O2 along as an oxidizer means carrying a lot of extra weight without anything gained, since one can more easily get O2 for the surrounding air. The only exception is in outer space, where one has to take one's oxidizer along with one's fuel.

The production of H2O2 requires electrolysis, and it may be simpler to make hydrogen or ammonia from that process, and for hydrogen, do some Fischer-Tropsch reactions to get something that is easier to store.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 16:19:37

Correct. In fact the Germans selected hydrogen peroxide as an oxidizer for the ME-163 Komet rocket plane, the fastest plane in the world (702mph) right up until Chuck Yeager flew the Bell X-1 through Mach 1:
Image
The hydrogen peroxide oxidizer (called "T-Stoff") mixed with the blended methanol/hydrazine fuel (called "C-Stoff") in the rocket engine combustion chamber and spontaneously burned (hypergolic ignition). This was a very dangerous airplane that repeatedly exploded on the ground before launch or in the air when pierced by a single bullet from a bomber's machine gun.

However, it went 700mph when a front line piston engined airplane went 350mph when fully loaded with fuel and armaments. It also had a 30mm cannon, which could destroy another fighter with a single shot, or a large bomber with 4-5 rounds.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 16:22:16

dohboi - "Process would use iron ore pellets". And what is the fossil fuel free source of those iron pellets?
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby lpetrich » Sat 25 Aug 2018, 18:40:06

ROCKMAN wrote:dohboi - "Process would use iron ore pellets". And what is the fossil fuel free source of those iron pellets?

Are you talking about mining without using fossil fuels?
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 12:30:22

i - I'm referring to the implication that steel is being created without the use of ANY FOSSIL FUEL. Great if it reduces the total amount of ff used in the process of creating steel. But it still requires some utilization.
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Re: THE Alternative Energy (general) Thread pt 3(merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 13:11:30

Interesting that a man with a reported net worth of $23.6 BILLION had to be induced with a $750 MILLION subsidy from the state to build his solar plant there. And now the state's politicians are wondering if they made a bad investment. At least Elon doesn't lay awake a night wondering the same thing. I guess that's how you become a billionaire. LOL.

"Inside Tesla's troubled New York solar factory" Reuters - Tesla Inc’s (TSLA.O) production of solar roof tiles has been delayed by assembly-line problems at its new publicly subsidized factory and difficulties producing a product that satisfies the aesthetic demands of CEO Elon Musk, eight former and current employees of both companies told Reuters.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesl ... SKBN1KT0DU
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