Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Homemade air conditioner

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 19 Aug 2008, 13:41:59

aflatoxin wrote:There are several facilities in Albuquerque that have big (10,000+ gallon) reservoirs that are turned into ice over the course of winter. I'm not sure if they are filled with water of some kind of salt. They are very cold at the end of the winter, as the heat pumps have pulled all of the usable energy out of the fluid.

Then, all summer long, the excess heat in the buildings is put into the tanks, heating the fluid and cooling the building. At the beginning of winter, the heated fluid from the summer is cooled again and the energy is used in the buildings.

I'm told that these setups can cut 25% of annual energy use needed to heat and cool the facilities.


I have seen set up like oyu are describing on TV for green buildings, but they run the cycle daily, not yearly. They freeze the tank solid each night using cheap off peak electricity to cool it, then during peak hours during the day they use a little electricity to pump refridgerant through the pipes in the tank to melt the ice and cool the refridgerant.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16154
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Geyser Energy » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 13:43:48

We have installed a air source heat pump. This offsets the air conditioning costs and provides hot water up to 68°C.

The machine takes the hot humid air from the loft or kitchen and converts it into energy used to heat water. These water heaters produce cool dehumidified air as bi-product. They are designed to be retrofitted and work with your existing tank.

I got mine from here: http://www.geyserenergy.co.uk
You can see the stats their product pages.
Geyser Energy
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 18 Mar 2017, 11:21:30
Location: England

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 11:51:50

Geyser Energy wrote:We have installed a air source heat pump. This offsets the air conditioning costs and provides hot water up to 68°C.

The machine takes the hot humid air from the loft or kitchen and converts it into energy used to heat water. These water heaters produce cool dehumidified air as bi-product. They are designed to be retrofitted and work with your existing tank.


Years ago I looked into opening a Laundromat business and one of the water heating companies did something like that. All the air coming from the dryers was triple filtered, to get all the lint out. Then the hot humid air was fed into an air source heat pump and the heat was recovered and used to heat a large tank of water to feed the washers in the laundromat. They claimed a 55% energy savings for water heating compared to using gas and even more compared to electric water heating.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4645
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Homemade air conditioner

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 16:02:56

Tanada wrote:I have seen set up like oyu are describing on TV for green buildings, but they run the cycle daily, not yearly. They freeze the tank solid each night using cheap off peak electricity to cool it, then during peak hours during the day they use a little electricity to pump refridgerant through the pipes in the tank to melt the ice and cool the refridgerant.

This seems brilliant and obvious. If it really can save meaningfully on energy consumed, I wonder why it's not done more often? Does it take a really, really big source of water?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 9232
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 21:26:42

Re: Homemade air conditioner

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 17:37:47

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Tanada wrote:I have seen set up like oyu are describing on TV for green buildings, but they run the cycle daily, not yearly. They freeze the tank solid each night using cheap off peak electricity to cool it, then during peak hours during the day they use a little electricity to pump refridgerant through the pipes in the tank to melt the ice and cool the refridgerant.

This seems brilliant and obvious. If it really can save meaningfully on energy consumed, I wonder why it's not done more often? Does it take a really, really big source of water?


You made me curios so I googled it, aparently a bunch of these were installed back in the Aughties.

updated 7/24/2007 6:55:58 PM ET

NEW YORK — As the summer swelters on, skyscrapers and apartments around the city will crank up air conditioners and push the city's power grid to the limit — but some have found a cool alternative.

Some office towers and buildings are keeping their AC use to a minimum by using an energy-saving system that relies on blocks of ice to pump chilly air.
"If you take the time to look, you can find innovative ways to be energy efficient, be environmental and sustainable," said William Beck, the head of critical engineering systems for Credit Suisse, a financial services multinational corporation.

The systems save companies money and reduce strain on the electrical grid in New York, where the city consumes huge amounts of power on hot summer days.

Ice cooling also cuts down on pollution. A system in Credit Suisse's offices at the historic Metropolitan Life tower in Manhattan is equal to taking 223 cars off the streets or planting 1.9 million acres of trees to absorb carbon dioxide from electrical use for a year, according to the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority.

3,000 systems worldwide

Such a reduction in pollution is valuable in a city where the majority of emissions come from the operation of buildings. Officials said there are at least 3,000 ice-cooling systems worldwide.

Because electricity is needed to make the ice, water is frozen in large silver tanks at night when power demands are low. The cool air emanating from the ice blocks is then piped through the building. At night the water is frozen again and the cycle repeated.

The idea of using ice to cool rooms is a throwback to the eras before Willis Carrier devised the first air-conditioner. An early method of cooling air in India involved hanging wet grass mats over windows. In the 1800s, a physician in Florida blew air over buckets of ice to cool hospital rooms.

Today, ice storage can be used as the sole cooling system, or it can be combined with traditional systems to help ease the power demands during peak hours.

At Credit Suisse, for example, the company must cool 1.9 million square feet of office space at the historic Met Life tower.

In the basement, three main cooling rooms house chilling machines and 64 tanks that hold 800 gallons of water each. Credit Suisse has a traditional air conditioning system, but engineers use the energy-saving system first.

Easy to maintain

Construction on the system took about four months, and company engineers say it is extremely efficient.

"When you make something mechanical, it can break, but a big block of ice ... isn't going to do anything but melt," said Todd Coulard of Trane Energy Services, which built the Credit Suisse system.

Trane, the air conditioning arm of American Standard, also developed a system for Morgan Stanley's Westchester County offices and just completed a new system for its offices on Fifth Avenue. A new Goldman Sachs headquarters will also have ice cooling.

Credit Suisse is considering installing the systems in offices around the globe, but nothing has been decided yet. Coulard, an expert in energy efficiency, was hired by the company four years ago to develop the energy services department.

"The idea of not only saving money for large companies, but doing something that benefits the environment, is win-win," he said. "It's doing the right thing."
Ice storage at Credit Suisse lowers the facility's peak energy use by 900 kilowatts, and reduces overall electric usage by 2.15 million kilowatt-hours annually — enough to power about 200 homes, officials said.

At the Morgan Stanley facility in Westchester County, the system reduces peak energy use by 740 kilowatts and overall electricity usage by 900,000 kilowatt hours annually.

Both companies received incentives from the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority under a program designed to improve the power grid and help businesses reduce operating costs.

Size, cost obstacles

The technology is not for every office space. There has to be room to install the large tanks — and costs are considerable. Credit Suisse spent more than $3 million to renovate its cooling system and Morgan Stanley's costs were comparable, meaning the technology is best suited to large companies.
"This is for companies that want to go green, but there (need) to be other benefits, returns on investments," Coulard said. "It works for larger companies because their cooling costs are so considerable."


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/19934187/ns/u ... ool-green/
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4645
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 19:10:56

OS, Google "ground source heat pump" for your answer. Residential scale ground source heat pumps are more and more common today. There are two means of coupling the pump to the Earth. Both are taking advantage of the fact that somewhere around 20 feet underground, the temperature is fairly constant, both Winter and Summer. Note that in Northern climates with permafrost a few feet beneath the surface, the first of these techniques cannot be used. Water, often with added anti-freeze, is the fluid that carries heat to and from the heat pump, in a "closed loop" where the antifreeze is circulated continuously.

The first technique called "horizontal bore" is suitable for land where there is solid bedrock or gravel or mixed rocks, boulders etc a few feet underground. The surface soils are bulldozed or dug away, into careful piles that segregate topsoil from subsoil or clay/gravel. Then large coils of continuous piping are laid in place, with a foot or more of soil underneath and several feet (the deeper the better) above. Then the soil layers are carefully restored over them in the reverse sequence, so that you end up with clay/gravel under subsoil which is under topsoil, and the land still supports vegetation. Here is a typical horizontal bore installation, which can be performed by excavation contractors with a variety of equipment to dig or bulldoze:
Image

The second method is called "vertical bore" and is used where bedrock is close to the surface without enough soil layers for digging/restoring, or where the land available is too small for horizontal bore. Boreholes are drilled in the earth using the same sort of drill rig used for water wells. Then a single pair of rigid plastic pipes are slipped into the hole, after a "U" coupling is heat-welded on the end. Finally the hole is pumped full of a thin concrete called "gunite" leaving 1 to 2 feet exposed above the borehole for connection to buried plumbing.
Image
Image
The cost of vertical bore can be quite high in areas with solid bedrock, as two or more bores are often used. You will be paying for every foot drilled into rock using an expensive carbide or diamond burr drill.

There is also a cost-reduced form of vertical bore which is used where the water table is high underneath the house, which involves a single bore and no gunite. The well bore is drilled down to the water table, and then 100 feet or so further down. Then the closed pipe loop is simply immersed in the water of the water table, and metallic piping can be used in this case:
Image
This form of so-called "geothermal" heat is often used on the shores of lakes and rivers, where the water table is close to the surface.

Inside the house the constant temperature water has a Freon (i.e. refrigerant) loop immersed in the water tank, which pumps heat into the water in Summer for A/C, and out of the water for Winter for space heating. Frequently a seperate smaller heat pump is used for domestic hot water, for both heating and cooling seasons - but it's more efficient in the Summer, when excess heat from the living space is being dumped into the same closed groundwater loop.
Image

The Freon refrigerant can either be used to warm/chill air in a forced air system, or to warm/chill yet another closed water loop embedded in the floors (more efficient and comfortable, but higher cost).

Ground-sourced heat pumps are the ultimate in efficiency, but MUST be matched fairly closely to the heating/cooling loads for maximum efficiency, which requires modelling the heating/cooling needs of the residence and sizing the pumps and ground bores to the needed heat flows, and professional installation. Not to mention, the use of earth moving equipment or drilling rigs. The afore-mentioned air-to-air heat pumps are more suited to DIY use, and can even be had pre-charged with refrigerant and with pre-charged lines to connect the units inside with the outside heat exchanger. Air-to-air heat pumps are less effcient than ground source heat pumps, but very much cheaper, and will do a great job in more moderate heating zones.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby hvacman » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 19:20:20

Re: Thermal cooling AC storage via Ice. The "Ice Bear" is very popular here in Redding, California. The local utility has subsidized installations on hundreds of commercial buildings over the last 15 years. They say it is cheaper than buying the extra power required to run AC during peak summer hot conditions. There are three on my office building right now. They run the building's Restaurant AC systems.

https://www.ice-energy.com/

This is for 5-ton type small commercial package AC systems. They also have a "residential" model, but I haven't seen it actually installed.

For moderate sized central chilled water systems, we use Calmac ice storage tanks in conjunction with water chillers that make cold glycol at about 25 deg. F. I have several of the model-C's installed at two high schools and at the local airport. Trane provided the chillers, much like the Suise systems.

http://www.calmac.com/icebank-energy-storage-model-c

For real big setups, (1000-2000 tons and up) we use insulated stratified-storage tanks to store chilled water made at night to be used the next day. The closest one to me is at Chico State's main central plant. They have a 1.3 million-gallon insulated above-grade water tank installed in 1994. I don't have a link to their specific system, but below is a link a a major manufacturer of these types of tanks:

http://www.dntanks.com/what-we-do/therm ... y-storage/
hvacman
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun 01 Dec 2013, 13:19:53

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby hvacman » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 19:31:38

Re: :Ground-source heat pumps.

The least expensive version is the type where you just take large loops of polyethylene pipe and sink them to the bottom of a relatively-deep pond or lake - preferably an acre or more. No drilling. No digging. Used a lot in the northern Sierra's - particularly in Plumas County. The main problem is that if the lake is too small and the annual heat load too high, the lake starts to get colder and colder every year, until it starts freezing down pretty deep in the winter. Ideal applications for any type of GSHP is to have relatively balanced annual heating and cooling loads - thus the earth acts as thermal storage, but not a thermal source or sink.

http://www.martinenergetics.com/ponds-and-lakes.htm

Because bores can be expensive, when we need more annual cooling than heating, we sometimes size the bores for the heating load, then add a small inexpensive cooling tower to further cool the loop in the summer. A $20,000 cooling tower can replace 30 bores (one ton of cooling per bore). At $3K-$4K per bore, that is a pretty good trade-off. It helps that we have very hot-dry summers which pairs well with an evaporative cooling tower for supplemental cooling the ground loop.
hvacman
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun 01 Dec 2013, 13:19:53

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 04 Apr 2017, 23:49:47

hvacman, I am considering a house on the Western shore of Lake Michigan, in N Wisconsin, where the owner has boasted "geothermal heat pump". They have two shallow vertical bores in an area between the house and lake, with metal hatchcovers. (You cannot run any plumbing or make any excavations within the 100 foot building setback from the waterline.) He did not know the BTU rating of his heat pump, but assures me he has never been cold.

The house is 3700 sq. ft. and the homeowner says he has 2x6 exterior walls with fiberglass batt insulation. The windows and doors are higher end double glazed Anderson units circa 1998, with plastic faux "muntins" sandwiched between the glass panes. The ratio of glass, especially on the lake side, is rather high, approximately 40% of the wall area, whereas it is less than 10% on the other three walls. The ground floor is partially below grade but with a walk-out on the back side. The second and third levels are above grade.

The HVAC system is forced air and the supplemental heat is a wood fireplace. Cooking and domestic hot water fuel is a 500 gallon propane tank. The house has a dedicated pole transformer and 200 Amp electrical service.

I don't know how to estimate the seasonal HVAC costs, or what sort of mechanical inspection or energy audit to request as a condition of purchase. Can you make suggestions, please?
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Geyser Energy » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 05:18:40

KaiserJeep wrote:OS, Google "ground source heat pump" for your answer. Residential scale ground source heat pumps are more and more common today. There are two means of coupling the pump to the Earth. Both are taking advantage of the fact that somewhere around 20 feet underground, the temperature is fairly constant, both Winter and Summer. Note that in Northern climates with permafrost a few feet beneath the surface, the first of these techniques cannot be used. Water, often with added anti-freeze, is the fluid that carries heat to and from the heat pump, in a "closed loop" where the antifreeze is circulated continuously.

The first technique called "horizontal bore" is suitable for land where there is solid bedrock or gravel or mixed rocks, boulders etc a few feet underground. The surface soils are bulldozed or dug away, into careful piles that segregate topsoil from subsoil or clay/gravel. Then large coils of continuous piping are laid in place, with a foot or more of soil underneath and several feet (the deeper the better) above. Then the soil layers are carefully restored over them in the reverse sequence, so that you end up with clay/gravel under subsoil which is under topsoil, and the land still supports vegetation. Here is a typical horizontal bore installation, which can be performed by excavation contractors with a variety of equipment to dig or bulldoze:
Image

The second method is called "vertical bore" and is used where bedrock is close to the surface without enough soil layers for digging/restoring, or where the land available is too small for horizontal bore. Boreholes are drilled in the earth using the same sort of drill rig used for water wells. Then a single pair of rigid plastic pipes are slipped into the hole, after a "U" coupling is heat-welded on the end. Finally the hole is pumped full of a thin concrete called "gunite" leaving 1 to 2 feet exposed above the borehole for connection to buried plumbing.
Image
Image
The cost of vertical bore can be quite high in areas with solid bedrock, as two or more bores are often used. You will be paying for every foot drilled into rock using an expensive carbide or diamond burr drill.

There is also a cost-reduced form of vertical bore which is used where the water table is high underneath the house, which involves a single bore and no gunite. The well bore is drilled down to the water table, and then 100 feet or so further down. Then the closed pipe loop is simply immersed in the water of the water table, and metallic piping can be used in this case:
Image
This form of so-called "geothermal" heat is often used on the shores of lakes and rivers, where the water table is close to the surface.

Inside the house the constant temperature water has a Freon (i.e. refrigerant) loop immersed in the water tank, which pumps heat into the water in Summer for A/C, and out of the water for Winter for space heating. Frequently a seperate smaller heat pump is used for domestic hot water, for both heating and cooling seasons - but it's more efficient in the Summer, when excess heat from the living space is being dumped into the same closed groundwater loop.
Image

The Freon refrigerant can either be used to warm/chill air in a forced air system, or to warm/chill yet another closed water loop embedded in the floors (more efficient and comfortable, but higher cost).

Ground-sourced heat pumps are the ultimate in efficiency, but MUST be matched fairly closely to the heating/cooling loads for maximum efficiency, which requires modelling the heating/cooling needs of the residence and sizing the pumps and ground bores to the needed heat flows, and professional installation. Not to mention, the use of earth moving equipment or drilling rigs. The afore-mentioned air-to-air heat pumps are more suited to DIY use, and can even be had pre-charged with refrigerant and with pre-charged lines to connect the units inside with the outside heat exchanger. Air-to-air heat pumps are less effcient than ground source heat pumps, but very much cheaper, and will do a great job in more moderate heating zones.


Fascinating thread. I wanted to point out that ground source heat pumps and geothermal heat pumps are different. The technical difference is that a geothermal heat pump doesn't require a compressor like the ground source heat pump.

Geothermal is typically when you are pumping up heat from the earths core and the water is already hot, (like the blue lagoon in Iceland and Yellowstone in the US).

Ground source is typically using the ground that is being warmed by the sun.
You can have a mix of the two and you can use a ground source heat pump to use heat deep from the ground.

Ground source heat pumps need a compressor to boost the temperature to be useful, but the geothermal is typically already hot and doesn’t need a compressor.

Ground source heat pumps can be used anywhere and they are what is usually being discussed when it comes to heating a home. Geothermal heat pumps are geographically specific.

It is interesting the terminology used in the industry: air source, water source and ground source vs geothermal, aquathermal and aerothermal. The heat pump industry uses the air source, water source and ground source for most applications http://www.geyserenergy.co.uk/products.html and geothermal for applications described above. I find it interesting that aquathermal and aerothermal terms aren't used to describe heat pumps at all anywhere in the world.
Geyser Energy
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 18 Mar 2017, 11:21:30
Location: England

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 06:26:02

Although I understand and agree with the terminology distinction you are making, the vast majority of English speakers do not. Thus we are left with the choice of further confusing the vast majority, or simply acquiescing to the less precise terminology that "geothermal" equals "ground source heat pump".

If you indulge in house-hunting online, you will find dozens and even hundreds of "geothermal" heated homes. Earlier in the thread, a HVAC professional even said that the cheapest "geothermal" heat exchanger was to immerse coils of plastic tubing in a lake. The precise terminology that both of us prefer is a lost cause.

I know it's frustrating. But most people are "on the world and not in the world". They don't use Physics or Thermodynamics to understand things around them. These people figure that the water pipe analogy for electricity is good enough, and mathematics was something that annoyed them in school, and thank <insert diety name here> that's over and done with.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Geyser Energy » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 10:55:18

Years ago I looked into opening a Laundromat business and one of the water heating companies did something like that. All the air coming from the dryers was triple filtered, to get all the lint out. Then the hot humid air was fed into an air source heat pump and the heat was recovered and used to heat a large tank of water to feed the washers in the laundromat. They claimed a 55% energy savings for water heating compared to using gas and even more compared to electric water heating.


The Laundry business is an interesting one for renewable energy companies. They can reuse their thermal energy with heat pumps. There is also now a water filter:http://www.geyserenergy.co.uk/next_scale_stop.html that is the first viable, proven alternative to salt water softeners. It works by crystallising the hard scale so it can travel down stream in colloidal suspension. It is saving huge amounts of water and chemicals. Collectively these products can go a long way to improving efficiencies in Laundy business'
Geyser Energy
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 18 Mar 2017, 11:21:30
Location: England

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby EdwinSm » Sat 19 Aug 2017, 01:56:39

I have had a ground heat exchange pump (for hot water and winter heating) since November 2006.

We have one vertical hole drilled in the granite bedrock - but it was cheaper for the company to drill in the rock when it came to the surface than to excavate and put in cement casings through a deeper layer of soil (where they wanted to drill first).

The system was expensive, but it paid for itself in 8 years, using about 6 500 kWh of electricity a year to replace about 2 500 litres of heating oil. [Depending on changing electricity and oil prices my yearly estimate of pay back ranged from 7 to 12½ years - showing just how hard it is to predict the future even just looking at just two variables in energy prices!] The annual savings basically meant that when I lost my job and later was force to take early retirement (with much reduced pension) I could still afford the heating costs - so I am very happy with the system.

Technically, the system is a form of solar heating (via solar heating of the bed rocks) and is not a geothermal system (where heat from the core of the earth is used). I have noticed that North American firms often are incorrect in using the "geothermal" label.

As a form of solar heating the ground heat exchange that we have is much more efficient (and cost saving) than solar panels. The past spring I priced solar panels, with all their recent improvements, and the payback period was about 22 years. The payback is so long as winter production of electricity is close to zero, and any surplus electricity that is sold back is paid at the spot price for electricity (which is much lower than the price I pay, which includes transmission charges). If "Powerwalls" or equivalent are on the market then I will revisit the idea of solar panels.
EdwinSm
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Thu 07 Jun 2012, 04:23:59

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Geyser Energy » Mon 21 Aug 2017, 04:11:47

KaiserJeep wrote:Although I understand and agree with the terminology distinction you are making, the vast majority of English speakers do not. Thus we are left with the choice of further confusing the vast majority, or simply acquiescing to the less precise terminology that "geothermal" equals "ground source heat pump".

If you indulge in house-hunting online, you will find dozens and even hundreds of "geothermal" heated homes. Earlier in the thread, a HVAC professional even said that the cheapest "geothermal" heat exchanger was to immerse coils of plastic tubing in a lake. The precise terminology that both of us prefer is a lost cause.

I know it's frustrating. But most people are "on the world and not in the world". They don't use Physics or Thermodynamics to understand things around them. These people figure that the water pipe analogy for electricity is good enough, and mathematics was something that annoyed them in school, and thank <insert diety name here> that's over and done with.


Thank you for pointing that out KJ. I agree with you that various terms are being used within the marketing of such products. This is a problem though when it comes to differentiating the two products. Keyword research on Google's search results shows that the term 'geothermal' gets a huge amount of hits in the USA and Iceland. They have a lot of geothermal activity in places with hot springs. In these areas the term 'geothermal' applies as the heat is being drawn from the earth. In the UK where there aren't any hot springs we find that the searched term is 'ground source heat pump' or 'water source heat pumps'. Keeping the terminology correct according to science and physics is part of the education process for consumers. A large part of selling these new products is to educate the customers so they can make the right decision for their application.
Geyser Energy
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 18 Mar 2017, 11:21:30
Location: England

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Geyser Energy » Mon 21 Aug 2017, 04:24:02

EdwinSm wrote:As a form of solar heating the ground heat exchange that we have is much more efficient (and cost saving) than solar panels. The past spring I priced solar panels, with all their recent improvements, and the payback period was about 22 years. The payback is so long as winter production of electricity is close to zero, and any surplus electricity that is sold back is paid at the spot price for electricity (which is much lower than the price I pay, which includes transmission charges). If "Powerwalls" or equivalent are on the market then I will revisit the idea of solar panels.


There are new solar panels which actually turn themselves off when electricity generation is lower than the amount of electricity used to keep them running. They would effectively be turned off at night, Winter and when clouds come over. This can reduce the payback period considerably. Solar panels work like a heat exchanger. It isn't photosynthesis contrary to popular belief.
Geyser Energy
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 18 Mar 2017, 11:21:30
Location: England

Re: THE AC/Heat Exchanger Thread (merged)

Unread postby Geyser Energy » Mon 21 Aug 2017, 10:31:45

Thanks for the info. After more research into these new panels I find they are called PVCT panels and they modulate the power going to various parts of the panel so that if half the panel is covered by cloud then it turns part of it off.

Interesting comment on creating energy above the Arctic circle. There is a cold climate heat pump.
Geyser Energy
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sat 18 Mar 2017, 11:21:30
Location: England

Previous

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests