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THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Sat 14 May 2016, 16:29:50

jesus d........I was hoping for a nice relaxing sunday.......can't you save up the bad news til Tuesday or Wednesday?
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 14 May 2016, 18:25:08

dohboi wrote:I just hadn't hear these particular numbers.

And of course it's rather easy to be sanguine about such dislocations when it isn't oneself being affected.


I'm not being sanguine about anything. Your projecting, stop.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 14 May 2016, 19:56:01

Sooo, my apologies if I misinterpreted your intended meaning (though it was hardly 'projection'; I don't think that word means what you think it means... :) )...

Sooo, why don't inform all of us what exactly meant by "Humans are the one resource we have in super abundance, life is cheap" unless it was that, well, you think the loss of such 'cheap' 'abundance' as human life is no very big deal so you are sanguine about it (presumably unless it is your own life or that of those you love)?
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 14 May 2016, 20:50:10

I know exactly what it means, it means you are projecting your interpretation onto my words. For example read your above post.

Humans are one resource we have in super abundance, life is cheap. That is a simple statement of fact. Nothing else. Live with it.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 15 May 2016, 07:42:02

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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 15 May 2016, 07:51:14

Newfie wrote:I know exactly what it means, it means you are projecting your interpretation onto my words. For example read your above post.

Humans are one resource we have in super abundance, life is cheap. That is a simple statement of fact. Nothing else. Live with it.


Ask yourself, are humans today cheap because Newfie or Ibon puts this adjective value on them or are humans cheap because we permitted ourselves to grow to 7.5 billion?

Dohboi, what Newfie is saying is that cheap is the inherent value that is the result of being in overshoot, not a value that me or you put on our species at the moment.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 15 May 2016, 07:55:32

Thanks, Ibon. That's something more like an explanation (unlike merely repeating the passage to be explained, which is obviously not).
Last edited by dohboi on Sun 15 May 2016, 08:06:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 15 May 2016, 07:58:54

I have to in that sense agree with Newf and Ibon, D. By allowing our population to so overpopulate that has lessened the value of any one individual. Yes our Economic and Political systems are geared to exploitation but our overpopulation has facilitated this modus operandi. People are pitted against each other in a race to the bottom for jobs, for resources, for environmental protection etc. Globalization has exploited this situation with overpopulation albeit as a consequences of the mandates of Capitalism. This situation is so pervasive and common that we hardly even notice all these forms of exploitation. Anyway, I think we are getting slightly off topic here so I will stop.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 15 May 2016, 08:07:13

So I would just like to hear Newf, Ib and ol say clearly:

"My life is cheap, and there is an overabundance of me and my loved ones."

(Of course, it is possible that I have been deceived all this time, and these worthy posters are not in fact humans, but bots or space aliens, or something...in which case, please ignore!! :lol: :lol: )
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 15 May 2016, 08:20:11

Okay, I will say it my life is cheap to some and their is an overabundance of those like me. By like me, I mean first world consuming citizens. In that same vein you can say an overabundance of third world citizens. The third world people fighting just to somehow find a job, survive. The first world citizens contributing to this consumption madness by virtue simply of being a first world citizen. I think D, what I, Ibon and Newf are saying is that this overpopulation has contributed to the sad state of societies throughout the world. I in no way am affirming that any persons life per say is cheap only that the circumstance bought on by overpopulation and our world-wide economic system have cheapened what it means to be a human with the inherent right to life , liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 15 May 2016, 11:11:32

dohboi wrote:So I would just like to hear Newf, Ib and ol say clearly:

"My life is cheap, and there is an overabundance of me and my loved ones."

(Of course, it is possible that I have been deceived all this time, and these worthy posters are not in fact humans, but bots or space aliens, or something...in which case, please ignore!! :lol: :lol: )


My life is cheap. There is an overabundance of me and my loved ones because we are members of a species that have gone rogue on the planet and have become Kudzu Apes. I have no problems stating this. Your next question please?
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 15 May 2016, 11:33:35

In nature the inherent value of any individual in any species varies for a variety of reasons that includes but is not limited to reproductive strategy, size of population, resource base. In fact as in humans the inherent value of individuals shifts through time based on population.

An adult female sea turtle will lay tens of thousands of eggs in her life time and maybe two or three will replace her in the population of the species. Obviously the inherent value of any individual in this case is very low when newly born and steadily increases through a lifetime.

Higher organisms with complex social lives like humans, dolphins and elephants invest more care per individual and more time per individual with a smaller number of offspring. Obviously the inherent value of each individual is higher immediately from birth onwards.

The inherent value of an individual of a species can vary also based on population. In severe overshoot an individual can actually become a liability to the species particularly when there is not enough resources available to maintain an elevated population. The inherent value of each individual increases as population contracts.

The moral dilemma is when we confuse the health of the species with the value of each individual. This is a moral dilemma because nature always played the important role of keeping us out of the messy task of self regulation.

The minute we replaced nature's role with our own dominance, from that very second forward, we actually obligated ourselves to resolve this moral dilemma. The longer we avoid and deny this role the greater the exponential consequences.

The pressure cooker is building up folks regarding this moral impasse.

I hear pleas from Onlooker and Timo that wee are unfit for this role. That we do indeed speak out of both sides of our mouths, we despair one moment the rapacious and aggressive role that our species plays in the biosphere but then then turn around and play the compassion card the minute someone like Newfie asks the question of the value of a human during times of human overshoot.

So make up your minds please.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 15 May 2016, 13:22:44

Thanks Ib and ol. That clarifies your position and makes clear you're not just saying 'other people are the problem,' which, usually when you dig, turns out to be the real position of people expressing concern about population and human 'overabundance.'
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 15 May 2016, 14:02:52

we..........in the "western world" , are all contributing to the problem by consuming more than a fair share of both renewable and non renewable resources

so logically WW (western world ) consumers should both be working towards lowering their current consumption and increasing the efficiency of resource use

while at the same time acknowledging that as the people consuming more than our fair share it is also logical that we are taking the lead in working towards stabilizing our population

women need to be encouraged to delay having their first child

and discouraged from having more than 2 children

and no this will not be enough by itself

but it is the right place to start
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 15 May 2016, 14:38:14

kiwichick wrote:we..........in the "western world" , are all contributing to the problem by consuming more than a fair share of both renewable and non renewable resources

so logically WW (western world ) consumers should both be working towards lowering their current consumption and increasing the efficiency of resource use

while at the same time acknowledging that as the people consuming more than our fair share it is also logical that we are taking the lead in working towards stabilizing our population

women need to be encouraged to delay having their first child

and discouraged from having more than 2 children

and no this will not be enough by itself

but it is the right place to start

What country in the WW western world has a fertility rate much above 2?
I don't think that is the problem in the WW. It is the energy consumption per capita, especially in the USA that is the west's main problem.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 15 May 2016, 15:31:34

@ v

my own country ...New Zealand added over 90,000 last year ..... + 2% .....from both net migration and net margin births over deaths

but in the wider picture the world population is growing at 1 % annually.......meaning if it continues at that rate , world population will double by 2085 - 2090
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 15 May 2016, 17:57:21

Ibon wrote:
dohboi wrote:So I would just like to hear Newf, Ib and ol say clearly:

"My life is cheap, and there is an overabundance of me and my loved ones."

(Of course, it is possible that I have been deceived all this time, and these worthy posters are not in fact humans, but bots or space aliens, or something...in which case, please ignore!! :lol: :lol: )


My life is cheap. There is an overabundance of me and my loved ones because we are members of a species that have gone rogue on the planet and have become Kudzu Apes. I have no problems stating this. Your next question please?


I agree Ibon. We individually value our lives, but it in the scheme of things? We are lmings on a cyclical high.

It has always been so. Read some of Jack Londons humanistic writings, or Orwell. I recall reading somewhere that in Irish (I think) coal mines they used children as draft animals because they were cheaper than ponies.

Dohboi,

Perhaps it is best to view our situation from the viewpoint of the Army ant. Each ant feels individual, unique, worthy of love. His value to the colony is in his undying fealty, his work ethic which provides for the colony, his dedication and willingness to die for the colony. The colony sees the loyal ants only as a mass asset to be utilized. Such are we in our existence.

Not that I like it, but it is what it is.

We are valued within our families, sometimes extended. To the colony? Fodder.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 16 May 2016, 05:51:18

"Each ant feels individual, unique, worthy of love"

Wow, I didn't realize that you had this kind of direct link into the inner emotional life of ants! Cool! :lol: :lol: 8) 8)

We are mostly valued by consumer 'societies' as consumers. That's the real main problem. We have to wrench ourselves free from the dominant societal narratives about what gives our lives meaning. It seems like most here have done that to some extent. (And my hat is off to all of you for that--if I had a hat! :) )

But most are still controlled by the pervasive messages in the commercial culture.

That's the 'hive' right now for which we are seen as 'fodder'--fodder for the earth-annihilating machine that is corporate capitalist industrial consumerist society.
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Re: THE Oceans & Seas Thread pt 3

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 22 May 2016, 13:02:19

Nice treatment of recent research on AMOC here: http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... -the-dots/

Cutting to the conclusion:

Here we thus have some pieces of the AMOC puzzle that fit beautifully together.

They suggest a weakening of the AMOC by about 15-20 % over the 20th Century, superimposed by some decadal variability. A weak AMOC is found around 1980-1990. After that it recovers somewhat into the early 2000s, as suggested by both the coral data and our AMOC index. Then it declines again, as confirmed by the RAPID data.

For the future, we have every reason to expect that both things will continue: the long-term weakening trend due to global warming, and short-term natural variability. When both work in the opposite direction, the AMOC will strengthen again for a while. When both work in the same direction, record cold in the subpolar Atlantic may result, like last year.
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