[SeaGypsy]

Yippeee! Another frigging Ukraine thread! Cid & MBS catching up with Desu!

[SeaGypsy]

6, you are a goose. Why such a warmonger? Your blithe statements utterly regardless of the fact you are provoking two nuclear states to war over a situation provoked by a moron & his team of morons & you know I'm not talking about Putin. Tour attitude is disgusting. If this idiotic war blows out & goes nuclear everyone loses. Everyone including you. Your attitude entitles you to a front row seat, standing room only, in fatigues with a gun. Horrid little man.

[GHung]

radon1: "Sixstrings never reads anything, this has been noticed a number of times already. It does not look like this is his mission here. His is a shill whose function is to flood certain threads so as to make them unreadable and/or look consistent with the mass media reporting."

I avoid these Ukraine threads mainly because of Six's absurd rants. I've asked him numerous times if he's willing to send his own family members into this mess, or send all of his income to DC to help fund whatever it is he thinks we can do there. Our resident armchair interventionist hypocrite has yet to respond. He seems perfectly OK with sending other people's children; sacrificing other peoples' blood and treasure to support whatever his angry agenda is.

Ever sign up, Six? I'm sure the Ukrainians are looking for mad killers to join their cause. Meanwhile, I have immediate family members on active duty who've seen more than their share of what you so mindlessly support, while accomplishing nothing but net-negative results. So put up, or STFU. Send your own children and cash. If you want to go kill women and children, go for it. I'm done.

[Cid_Yama]

Poroshenko is now engaged in a cover-up of what happened at Debaltseve. Showing pictures of those troops OUTSIDE the pocket who were trying to break IN, withdrawing, and conflating them with those who were trapped inside the pocket, claiming 80% were withdrawn from the town.

Nonsense, maybe 80% of the ones OUTSIDE the pocket were withdrawn, the ones on the inside could't GET OUT. That's why the ones on the outside were trying to break in and free them.

A significant portion of the Ukrainian Army has been destroyed, it's weapons captured.

I suppose he has no choice but to cover it up. But now, just like Hitler at the end, is moving about phantom divisions that no longer exist.

[Withnail]

Poroshenko is now engaged in a cover-up of what happened at Debaltseve. Showing pictures of those troops OUTSIDE the pocket who were trying to break IN, withdrawing, and conflating them with those who were trapped inside the pocket, claiming 80% were withdrawn from the town.

Nonsense, maybe 80% of the ones OUTSIDE the pocket were withdrawn, the ones on the inside could't GET OUT. That's why the ones on the outside were trying to break in and free them.

A significant portion of the Ukrainian Army has been destroyed, it's weapons captured.

I suppose he has no choice but to cover it up. But now, just like Hitler at the end, is moving about phantom divisions that no longer exist.

It sure doesnt look like anything like 8,000 troops made it out.

All I've seen is some small battle scarred groups.

[radon1]

http://youtu.be/am1Vrybul98
http://youtu.be/umcUlDrQlCM?t=5m43s

Donetsk soldiers protecting Ukrainian POWs from Ukrainian own "blocking detachments" in Debaltsevo.

"Blocking detachments" - detachments that shoot in the back own troops who want to surrender or flee. Has been widely condemned as a barbarian practice of the 20th and earlier centuries.

[Donetsk]

http://youtu.be/am1Vrybul98
http://youtu.be/umcUlDrQlCM?t=5m43s

Donetsk soldiers protecting Ukrainian POWs from Ukrainian own "blocking detachments" in Debaltsevo.

"Blocking detachments" - detachments that shoot in the back own troops who want to surrender or flee. Has been widely condemned as a barbarian practice of the 20th and earlier centuries.

Anytime ,anyone says anything on camera it is true by default , as long as that's what you want to hear. Otherwise, damned lies is all it is.

[AgentR11]

Anytime ,anyone says anything on camera it is true by default , as long as that's what you want to hear. Otherwise, damned lies is all it is.

This is very much true of both sides; its why I generally watch their videos (NATO and RF) without sound.

On the issue of Debaltstev-eo though; and Poroshenko now calling for peace keepers; unless he's essentially decided to defacto surrender; peace keepers is the wrong answer. A peace keeping force injected now, will lock the current positions into a new national border; Poroshenko will lose the ability to shell Debaltstev-eo's rail hub; and Russia will put that thing back together and de-mine it in a matter of weeks. Once the peace keeper box is open; Russian peacekeepers will be all over Dontesk and Luhansk and Debaltstev-eo, Kiev will have no say in the matter. And they'll bring their full kit; you won't have to find smudgy pictures of Panstir and S400's; they'll be big and bold right in your face.

Now, hats off in respect, if Poroshenko's finally got a clue and recognized his situation, and can find a way to surrender and survive. Western Ukraine really could do ok attached to the EU; about like a slightly more impoverished Greece, but far better than where yall are at now. It just seems very inconsistent and knee-jerk'ish; first he's threatening "Martial Law" (which would do nothing other than break ties with the IMF) then he rants about UN peacekeepers which will moot Martial Law and prevent Ukraine from ever recapturing the territory that's currently lost.

Just seems like he's flailing about aimlessly.

I mean honestly, the whole conflict has been innundated with "lets prove the Russians are at war with Ukraine"; coupled with the combat situation which has impoverished Kiev waging a tactically offensive battle against Russia; at the time Russia has an immense quantity of gear and ammo they are obsoleting and scrapping. Prove you're at war with Russia.

AT WAR WITH RUSSIA. AND YOU'RE ON OFFENSE.
Are you insane?

As soon as you realized that, you should have been at the table with Moscow's proxies and a rep from Putin, and find out what they can live with, and then figure out how to make what they can live with, profitable to you. Of course, that would involve less vindictive punishment and more prosperity for the evil people who didn't want to go along with Maidan, and you couldn't have that. Instead, you wrecked a generation of your population; destroyed all the rights you said you were trying to create, and were about to strip away rights on a scale that the guy you executed a coup against never trespassed.

Unbelievable incompetence.

[Quinny]

Agent - what makes me really fucking annoyed is that you're a right wing fascist bastard who comes to very similar conclusions that a left wing commie bastard like me comes to! Is it something to do with logic?

[Withnail]

As if confirmation were needed, it seems Poroshenkho's claims about an organised withdrawal are a lie.

Seems most of Ukraine's 128th Brigade are still in the pocket, did not receive orders to retreat.

[Withnail]

Contrary to Ukrainian claims the retreating troops did not destroy their abandoned equipment when leaving.

Debaltseve is full of intact abandoned trucks, armour, artillery guns, small arms and ammunition.

http://novo-russia.su/novosti/ukrainski ... -tehniku-i









Defeated retreating Ukrainians barely resemble soldiers.

[dissident]

I have been watching these walkabout through piles of ammunition crates videos since last summer. They are all starting to look the same. There is also the mandatory jar of salo in many of them, sitting abandoned.

NATO wants to pretend the rebels are some fake Russian operation. NATO leaders are certifiable retards. The locals are doing the fighting and the dying. They will not poof out of existence. Expect this conflict to last until and equitable settlement is agreed upon. And that is full autonomy for the Donbas or de facto independence. NATO's attempts to enforce some BS territorial integrity through a war of suppression by its puppets in Kiev is a war crime.

[Cid_Yama]

Agent - what makes me really fucking annoyed is that you're a right wing fascist bastard who comes to very similar conclusions that a left wing commie bastard like me comes to! Is it something to do with logic?

Just to be fair, Agent appears to be a currency trader, international banker, or something similar. And he lives in Texas. If he wasn't right-wing he would be very lonely at work and at home.

He's not one of those fascist bastards, he's more of an Eisenhower Republican, once thought extinct. He's almost on your side.

[Cid_Yama]

Poroshenko has never been an independent player. When he went to the talks at the behest of Germany and France, the strings were quite visible.

Surprised he wasn't sitting on Merkel's lap with her hand up his ass to the elbow.

The IMF/ECB calls the shots, they wanted one last shot at taking the resources, which are all in the Independent Republics.

Now that Poroshenko has proved unable to deliver, they could care less what happens to the western part. They certainly don't want it. More cost than it's worth. They've already blown enough on this venture.

Time to dump them on the side of the road stripped to the bone and bleeding.

That's why Poroshenko is flailing about in a panic. He knows what comes next.

Abandoned by the west and it's money, he'll end up hanging from a lamp post for sure. He betrayed a lot of people on his own side playing patsy for the western bankers.

[Keith_McClary]

The IMF/ECB calls the shots, they wanted one last shot at taking the resources, which are all in the Independent Republics.

Obsolescent coal mines and sunflower fields?

[AgentR11]

Coal is baseline, plus frakable gas, but most interestingly, high quality ag land, near Europe, with trade agreements with Europe... but no anti-technology regulation to interfere with its development. Basically everything useful about the EU, and none of the baggage. You can see it when you watch any of the videos right now.. its that black, sticky, wet, muddy, soil. Tis the gud stuff, mon. You can bet ADM / Monsanto, et al, are drooling all over themselves at the prospects, or at least were before it all went pear shaped.

Now, I dunno; they may think its not worth the headache.

[Cid_Yama]

Donbass mineral resources

gold

There have been reports Ukraine is going to start gold mining. Experts estimate Ukraine’s gold resources at 400 tons in the Carpathian Mountains and 500 tons in the Donbass region. Some gold is also believed to be in the Crimea and Dnepropetrovsk regions.

coal

Donetsk coal basin, one of the largest coal deposits in Europe

diamonds

In the North of Azov massif kimberlitic pipes with small fragments of diamond crystals identified.

oil and gas

reserves of 1200 million m3, 15 gas-bearing structures found with probable reserves of 30 billion m3. 118 billion m3 of methane

And a treasure trove of other minerals. Here's a couple links, translations not great.

link

link

Also, huge untapped deep water reserves

And rare earth elements

Also the largest concentration of industrial production in Europe.

[Cid_Yama]

they may think its not worth the headache.

I think they are now certain it is out of their reach without starting WWIII. They see a proxy war would just escalate and they still wouldn't get what they wanted. Russia will not let them have it.

Even a shooting war with Russia wouldn't get it for them, might get their own asses blown away, and set them up for some real economic losses.

I can't see a way for them to get it. Surely they have to see it as well.

[radon1]

Donetsk region's GDP per head was third highest in Ukraine prior to the war, was above Ukraine's average by more than 25%.

Ukraine's GDP per capita, 2008, from less than 2000 USD - orangest, to over 10000 USD - greenest (Kiev).

[Withnail]

NAF has captured a US supplied anti mortar radar system.