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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kildred590 » Thu 01 Dec 2011, 20:45:20

But current lithium batteries cannot draw current at the maximum rate, they use "trickle" chargers.

Just because a wall outlet puts out 10A, it doesn't follow that a battery can fill that quickly.
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Re: Potentially better battery

Unread postby Margarethe » Fri 02 Dec 2011, 04:02:28

I remember a commercial video on Youtube where a guy was lining up on an electricity vending machine. That sort of surprised me, and I have to admit I didn't picture getting renewable energy on a distribution scheme like that.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Fri 02 Dec 2011, 09:38:46

What are you talking about? Lithium cells can charge at very high rates, my cells can charge at 100 amps if my charger and home circuitry could handle it, which it can't. Other lithium cells can handle even faster charge rates. I'm sorry but you simply have no idea what you are talking about.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 15:13:28

Batteries for phones and laptops could soon recharge ten times faster and hold a charge ten times larger than current technology allows.

Engineers at Northwestern University in the US have changed the materials in lithium-ion batteries to boost their abilities. One change involves poking millions of minuscule holes in the battery. Batteries built using the novel technique could be in the shops within five years, estimate the scientists.

A mobile phone battery built using the Northwestern techniques would charge from flat in 15 minutes and last a week before needing a recharge. The density and movement of lithium ions are key to the process. The recharging speed has been accelerated using a chemical oxidation process which drills small holes - just 20-40 nanometers wide - in the atom-thick sheets of graphene that batteries are made of. This helps lithium ions move and find a place to be stored much faster.

The downside is that the recharging and power gains fall off sharply after a battery has been charged about 150 times. "Even after 150 charges, which would be one year or more of operation, the battery is still five times more effective than lithium-ion batteries on the market today," said lead scientist Prof Harold Kung from the chemical and biological engineering department at Northwestern.

So far, the work done by the team has concentrated on making improvements to anodes - where the current flows into the batteries when they are providing power.The group now plans to study the cathode - where the current flows out - to make further improvements.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 18:04:13

Chemists have solved the 150 year-old mystery of what gives the lead-acid battery, found under the hood of most cars, its unique ability to deliver a surge of current. Lead-acid batteries are able to deliver the very large currents needed to start a car engine because of the exceptionally high electrical conductivity of the battery anode material, lead dioxide. However, even though this type of battery was invented in 1859, up until now the fundamental reason for the high conductivity of lead dioxide has eluded scientists.

‘The unique ability of lead acid batteries to deliver surge currents in excess of 100 amps to turn over a starter motor in an automobile depends critically on the fact that the lead dioxide which stores the chemical energy in the battery anode has a very high electrical conductivity, thus allowing large current to be drawn on demand,’ said Professor Russ Egdell of Oxford University’s Department of Chemistry, an author of the paper. ‘However the origin of conductivity in lead oxide has remained a matter of controversy. Other oxides with the same structure, such as titanium dioxide, are electrical insulators.’

Through a combination of computational chemistry and neutron diffraction, the team has demonstrated that lead dioxide is intrinsically an insulator with a small electronic band gap, but invariably becomes electron rich due to the loss of oxygen from the lattice, causing the material to be transformed from an insulator into a metallic conductor.

The researchers believe these insights could open up new avenues for the selection of improved materials for modern battery technologies. Professor Egdell said: ‘The work demonstrates the power of combining predictive materials modelling with state-of-the-art experimental measurements.’
Mystery of car battery's current solved

Nice to see we finally understand why lead acids deliver such large currents. Now we can work on adding this advantage lead-acids have to other modern battery technologies, instead of relying on 150 year old tech. Add in some of the other interesting battery improvements discussed in this thread, and it seems very plausible that the batteries of tomorrow will be leaps and bounds better than what we are using today.
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Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Mon 27 Feb 2012, 13:55:05

The five-year-old company today is expected to disclose technical details of its batteries which executives say could lead to cutting EV battery pack prices in half in three or four years. Envia Systems' batteries are being evaluated by a number of automakers, including its largest investor General Motors, according to CEO Atul Kapadia.


Read more: http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-57384 ... z1nbnoTBMI
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 27 Feb 2012, 16:26:29

Oooh! A battery that 'might' give the Chevy Volt a range of 70 miles - only four years from now (if all goes well). We're saved!

We can all go home. Close down the Peak Oil site - it's all over.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Mon 27 Feb 2012, 17:17:34

Actually we are talking about a 300 mile range for around 20,000$.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 27 Feb 2012, 21:53:06

TheAntiDoomer wrote:Actually we are talking about a 300 mile range for around 20,000$.


You mean like the 1996 Solectria Sunrise with the 27 kWh NiMH pack? $20,000 would have been its price in volume production. It met NHSTA requirements and could seat a family. The major automakers wouldn't touch it back then, despite positive consumer response and interest.

We don't need an advanced battery for gasoline-like range and performance and cheaper than gasoline cost! We had what we needed almost 20 years ago. It's called a design that considers the vehicle as an entire system instead of focusing on individual components in isolation. Such a design will start with an uncompromisingly aerodynamic body, and then make the styling conform to the aerodynamics, not the other way around, and will incorporate the use of those weight saving techniques that won't kill the budget, while using a battery technology that is appropriate for the application. This philosophy is every bit applicable to ICE cars as well, allowing 80+ mpg with no compromises to the consumer. It does not fit well with the planned obsolescence vehicle production model though.

Dave Cloud's modified Geo Metro can do 200 miles range at 65 mph on flooded golf cart batteries for f**k's sake. He built it for $3,000(~$7,000 if you count the parts he had laying around for free). His goal was to build a 200 mile range car on a low budget, and he was successful. The motors, controllers, and batteries were all well out of date by 10+ years as far as the hobbyist market is concerned, let alone what the automakers have today at their disposal.


That being said, if true, this battery advancement will only make EVs that much more viable than they've been. A conversion with a 250 mile range on LiFePO4 could be made to get 1,000 miles instead for the same weight. 1,000 miles range, and recharge time is not even an issue at all.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby SilentRunning » Mon 27 Feb 2012, 23:32:42

TheAntiDoomer wrote:
The five-year-old company today is expected to disclose technical details of its batteries which executives say could lead to cutting EV battery pack prices in half in three or four years. Envia Systems' batteries are being evaluated by a number of automakers, including its largest investor General Motors, according to CEO Atul Kapadia.



I am a fan of electric cars. I even drive a real, live hybrid car. I wish for better, cheaper batteries.

However, over the past 20 years, if I had $100 for every time I have read that a major breakthrough out of some lab somewhere was about to make electric cars cheaper, lighter, and other wise better - I could probably afford to buy the Telsa roadster with cash, and have considerable spending money left over.

I've learned to IGNORE any claims about better, cheaper, lighter, safer (,etc,etc,etc) batteries UNTIL such batteries are actually available for sale and have proven themselves to be reliable in the laboratory of the REAL WORLD.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Tue 28 Feb 2012, 08:25:48

New Energy-Dense Battery Could Enable Long-Distance Electric Cars

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ctric-cars

NATIONAL HARBOR, Md.—A company founded in the Palo Alto public library has taken a dose of government money and technology and turned it into the most energy-dense battery ever. Envia System's new lithium-ion battery packs roughly twice as much energy per gram as present batteries, the company will announce here at the third annual summit of the Advanced Research Projects Agency—Energy (ARPA–e).

"We achieved 400 watt-hours per kilogram," explains materials scientist Sujeet Kumar, Envia co-founder and chief technology officer. "We have made a 40 ampere cell in a large format that automakers can recognize and use," and one that has been validated by independent energy density tests at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Crane, Ind.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby Beery1 » Tue 28 Feb 2012, 08:57:31

TheAntiDoomer wrote:Actually we are talking about a 300 mile range for around 20,000$.


You mean we are talking about 'maybe' a 300 mile range for 'maybe' around $20,000 'maybe' four years from now, if all goes well.

I'll email Kunstler, Heinberg, Ruppert, Campbell, Deffeyes et al and tell them to stop writing books and cancel their speaking engagements. Oh joy! It's all over! We can look forward to endless energy and a bright future for all!

I'll dig out my DVD of 'Things to Come', bung it in the DVD player and enjoy a peek at our coming new world. Admittedly it has the benefit of being a tad more optimistic than my original plan to get tips on the future by watching 'Soylent Green'.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby Revi » Tue 28 Feb 2012, 09:02:45

I think the car will change. Why drive a monster around when a small, lightweight car would do? Why own a car at all? The idea of driving around in 2000 pounds of steel to get a jug of milk is crazy anyway. We should be getting around our towns in a small electric car and going further in a bus or a train. We use our small electric car every day. It cost around $5000, and it's made in the USA.

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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Tue 28 Feb 2012, 09:07:45

^A lot of the communities in Florida do just that. I have a relative that owns a couple golf carts down there and uses them to do all his grocery runs.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby Beery1 » Tue 28 Feb 2012, 09:10:34

Revi wrote:We use our small electric car every day. It cost around $5000, and it's made in the USA.

Image


I bet I can go faster and carry more on my vehicle, which doesn't need plugging in, runs on the same food I eat, keeps me fit and cost $600 15 years ago. They sell for around the same price today.

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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Tue 28 Feb 2012, 09:14:40

^Cool!
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby SilentRunning » Wed 29 Feb 2012, 01:34:24

TheAntiDoomer wrote:New Energy-Dense Battery Could Enable Long-Distance Electric Cars

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ctric-cars

NATIONAL HARBOR, Md.—A company founded in the Palo Alto public library has taken a dose of government money and technology and turned it into the most energy-dense battery ever. Envia System's new lithium-ion battery packs roughly twice as much energy per gram as present batteries, the company will announce here at the third annual summit of the Advanced Research Projects Agency—Energy (ARPA–e).

"We achieved 400 watt-hours per kilogram," explains materials scientist Sujeet Kumar, Envia co-founder and chief technology officer. "We have made a 40 ampere cell in a large format that automakers can recognize and use," and one that has been validated by independent energy density tests at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Crane, Ind.



Great. Let me know when the things are actually available for sale, as opposed to mere nice sounding claims. When they are, I'll be impressed. Until then, it won't actually propel a vehicle. Vehicles need BATTERIES, not PROMISES OF BATTERIES.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby JohnRM » Wed 29 Feb 2012, 05:26:59

Great, so we can run our cars on coal and Uranium, instead of oil.
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby ian807 » Wed 29 Feb 2012, 14:29:09

Lessee, a gallon of gas contains about 132 megajoules. There's about 7 gallons worth in a cubic foot, or about 924 megajoules per cubic foot. Got a battery with that energy density? Get back to me on that one, eh?
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Re: Battery breakthrough could bring electric cars to all

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 29 Feb 2012, 14:41:57

ian807 wrote:There's about 7 gallons worth in a cubic foot, or about 924 megajoules per cubic foot.


Just about seven and a half. Doesn't seem like it should be that much but its always suprising with volume.

I do think that the cab drivers around here that are driving the Prius are feeling a little better about the extra lease fees they pay now that gas is going up.

The local government pushed the cab industry in that directionsimply by approving entry of a new all-hybrid cab company in the county. The other cab companies were losing market share as patrons wanted to feel they were supporting a 'green' alternative and now all the cab companies have a lot of the hybrids in their fleet.
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