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THE Battery Technology Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Battery Tech and the Electric Car

Unread postby Timo » Mon 06 Jun 2011, 13:59:11

I'm not sure the best place to post this, but batteries and electric cars seems to be an appropriate fit. It seems researchers at MIT have made a pretty big leap in battery technology that's also applicable to electric cars. I know it's a feable excuse to admit that i'm not a scientist of any kind, and for the very reason i won't try to re-hash the science behind this development. I'll just say that it bodes very well, both for cars and for the larger grid fed by renewables. Oh, and this new tech is also very inexpensive.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/aenm.201100152/abstract
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Re: Battery Tech and the Electric Car

Unread postby Frank » Tue 14 Jun 2011, 21:12:53

Some of the earlier posters seem to be making an assumption about fuel cost and availability. Don't forget about peak oil... Even when fuel gets more expensive it may not be possible to get all you want. There's more in the equation than cost.

EV's can be fueled by rooftop PV panels (mine are.) Maybe I don't have the unlimited range of an ICE vehicle but I know I can still get to the store on energy produced on my rooftop.
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Re: Battery Tech and the Electric Car

Unread postby JRP3 » Sun 26 Jun 2011, 22:44:34

What man? You can have a NEV, or make it a trike and register it as a motorcycle for full functionality. Or just pick a small lightweight car and do a proper conversion. If your needs are limited it won't cost much at all.
Related, more news from DBM and their potential breakthrough battery:
http://www.evuk.co.uk/news/index8.html
The industry is aiming to supply batteries by 2015 that can run for 200-300 km under normal day-to-day conditions. We've proven that that much - and more - is already possible today.
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Refurbishing batteries

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 29 Aug 2011, 12:16:28

I seem to remember someone on PO had posted a thread about refurbishing lead acid batteries but can't seem to find it. Can anyone else point me in the right direction or provide link to good advice?
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Re: Refurbishing batteries

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 29 Aug 2011, 13:37:54

Here you go. For addition info you might want to google "Desulfation" or "Desulfator". It seems your best bet would be to buy a lead acid battery conditioner(Desulfator). There seems to be some controversy over whether or not conditioners/additives provide any long term benefit. Also, it seems that for batteries that are very far gone you will only see marginal results. You might see better results using a battery conditioner over the life of the battery and not waiting until it is dead to try and revive it. I believe some chargers have a built in conditioner function as well, might be worth going that route.

Here is a post
I had a desulfator for every two 6 volt battery and ran it across the twelve volt series, and it seemed to work our batteries didnt seem to age in the motor home after that, but since it takes the same time to desulfate and it dose to sulfate, I just left it hooked up all the time (it takes very little power)

here is something I found.
Excerpt: ... battery sulfation has been with us for a very long time. The problem is that in a typical wet (sulfuric acid) battery, the lead plates want to be exercised. That is, they want to be charged and discharged on a regular basis. If they just sit there, the acid slowly, slowly builds up a film of sulfide that eventually causes the battery to "go weak".
This "weak" has everything to do with the fact that lead sulfide is a fairly good insulator, and as the sulfide layer builds and builds over weeks and months of disuse, the internal resistance of the battery goes up and up.
Finally it gets to the point where most of the voltage of the battery is dropped in the internal resistance of the battery and darned little gets to the point of intended use…like the starter motor. ...

4. There are going to be some batteries that are so far gone that leaving the desulfator on charge for a month will only get you four weeks and change. In my experience with these circuits, if you get the battery right when you notice that it is laboring to turn the starter, you have half a chance to make the desulfation process work. If it is so far gone that it won't even pull in the master switch relay, the odds of being able to save it are slim to none at all. See photo #6 for an example of a battery that will probably never be able to be brought back to life.

5. The sulfation process took weeks or months to develop. The desulfation process will take the same order of magnitude of time. Don't expect to put the battery on desulfate today and back in the airplane tomorrow. I've left batteries on this system for a month before I was happy with the end result.

and a pretty good site:
http://www.dallas.net/~jvpoll/Battery/a ... urvey.html
THE Battery Technology Thread (merged)

Good chargers will have a way of reducing sulfation, through through techniques such as pulse width modulation (charging in pulses, basically).

To determine what battery and charging approach is best for you, see the Deep Cycle Battery FAQ. I'm currently using AGMs because of frequent, unpredictable travel requirements.
THE Blackouts/Brownouts Thread (merged)

Most battery experts agree that there is no evidence that conditioners, additives or aspirins provide any long-term benefits for heavily sulfated batteries. Short term gains, if any, are achieved by increasing the acidity (Specific Gravity) of the battery, which could increase the Amp Hour capacity, but also increase the water consumption and positive grid corrosion; thus, decreasing the overall service life of the battery. If a battery will not take a recharge, then it is best to replace it with a healthy battery. This controversy between the additive manufacturers, battery manufacturers, and independent electrochemists has been going on for over 50 years as demonstrated in this AD-X2 Battery Additive, From a Trickle to a Torrent article from the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Museum.
Will conditioners, aspirins or additives will revive sulfated batteries?
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Re: Refurbishing batteries

Unread postby homeboy » Mon 29 Aug 2011, 13:47:19

Costco sells cheap batteries and has easy warranty.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 08 Sep 2011, 19:27:59

New material possible boon for lithium ion batteries

Batteries could get a boost from an Oak Ridge National Laboratory discovery that increases power, energy density and safety while dramatically reducing charge time.

A team led by Hansan Liu, Gilbert Brown and Parans Paranthaman of the Department of Energy lab's Chemical Sciences Division found that titanium dioxide creates a highly desirable material that increases surface area and features a fast charge-discharge capability for lithium ion batteries. Compared to conventional technologies, the differences in charge time and capacity are striking.

"We can charge our battery to 50 percent of full capacity in six minutes while the traditional graphite-based lithium ion battery would be just 10 percent charged at the same current," Liu said.

Compared to commercial lithium titanate material, the ORNL compound also boasts a higher capacity – 256 vs. 165 milliampere hour per gram – and a sloping discharge voltage that is good for controlling state of charge. This characteristic combined with the fact oxide materials are extremely safe and long-lasting alternatives to commercial graphite make it well-suited for hybrid electric vehicles and other high-power applications.

The results, recently published in Advanced Materials, could also have special significance for applications in stationary energy storage systems for solar and wind power, and for smart grids. The titanium dioxide with a bronze polymorph also has the advantage of being potentially inexpensive, according to Liu.


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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Fri 09 Sep 2011, 08:09:15

Seaweed makes better batteries:
If silicon particles are used as the basis of the electroactive powder, the battery's anode can hold more ions. But silicon particles swell as the battery is charged, increasing in volume up to four times their original size. This swelling causes cracks in the PVDF binder, damaging the anode. In research published today by Science, the Georgia Tech and Clemson scientists show that when alginate is used instead of PVDF, the anode can swell and the binder won't crack. This allows researchers to create a stable silicon anode that has, so far, been demonstrated to have eight times the capacity of the best graphite-based anodes.


http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/38531/
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 04 Oct 2011, 16:15:47

Dr Xie and his team have developed a membrane that not only promises greater cost-effectiveness in delivering energy, but also an environmentally-friendly solution. The researchers used a polystyrene-based polymer to deposit the soft, foldable membrane that, when sandwiched between and charged by two metal plates, could store charge at 0.2 farads per square centimeter. This is well above the typical upper limit of 1 microfarad per square centimetre for a standard capacitor.

The cost involved in energy storage is also drastically reduced. With existing technologies based on liquid electrolytes, it costs about US$7 to store each farad. With the advanced energy storage membrane, the cost to store each farad falls to an impressive US$0.62. This translates to an energy cost of 10-20 watt-hour per US dollar for the membrane, as compared to just 2.5 watt-hour per US dollar for lithium ion batteries.

Dr Xie said: "Compared to rechargeable batteries and supercapacitors, the proprietary membrane allows for very simple device configuration and low fabrication cost. Moreover, the performance of the membrane surpasses those of rechargeable batteries, such as lithium ion and lead-acid batteries, and supercapacitors." The discovery was featured in Energy & Environmental Science and highlighted by the international journal Nature.

The research team has demonstrated the membrane's superior performance in energy storage using prototype devices. The team is currently exploring opportunities to work with venture capitalists to commercialise the membrane. To date, several venture capitalists have expressed strong interest in the technology. "With the advent of our novel membrane, energy storage technology will be more accessible, affordable, and producible on a large scale. It is also environmentally-friendly and could change the current status of energy technology," Dr Xie said.
Novel Energy-Storage Membrane: Performance Surpasses Existing Rechargeable Batteries and Supercapacitors
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Fri 11 Nov 2011, 08:28:02



"We can charge our battery to 50 percent of full capacity in six minutes while the traditional graphite-based lithium ion battery would be just 10 percent charged at the same current," Liu said.

This doesn't make any sense. Batteries will fill at the same rate if the same current is used and the batteries are the same size. Faster fill times come from being able to use higher current without internal resistance driving cell voltage too high or causing heating issues. I don't get it.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kildred590 » Tue 15 Nov 2011, 21:22:46

I think he means wall current at the socket e.g. 10 Amps.

The actual current would have to be higher.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Wed 16 Nov 2011, 22:29:31

That doesn't work either. To charge a battery quickly you need high amounts of power from the wall, at these levels it's going to require high voltage and high current. All newer battery materials can do is allow faster charge acceptance at high power levels without suffering internal damage, the power from the wall will still be high. In fact to take advantage of the faster charge acceptance of the batteries the power from the wall needs to be even higher. For example to charge a 30 kWh pack in 6 minutes would take 300 volts at 1000 amps, or 600 volts at 500 amps, not counting losses. Nothing inside a battery can change that.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 23 Nov 2011, 17:28:01

Stanford researchers have used nanoparticles of a copper compound to develop a high-power battery electrode that is so inexpensive to make, so efficient and so durable that it could be used to build batteries big enough for economical large-scale energy storage on the electrical grid -- something researchers have sought for years.

In laboratory tests, the electrode survived 40,000 cycles of charging and discharging, after which it could still be charged to more than 80 percent of its original charge capacity. For comparison, the average lithium ion battery can handle about 400 charge/discharge cycles before it deteriorates too much to be of practical use. "At a rate of several cycles per day, this electrode would have a good 30 years of useful life on the electrical grid"

A lot of recent research on batteries, including other work done by Cui's research group, has focused on lithium ion batteries, which have a high energy density -- meaning they hold a lot of charge for their size. That makes them great for portable electronics such as laptop computers.

But energy density really doesn't matter as much when you're talking about storage on the power grid. You could have a battery as big as a house since it doesn't need to be portable. Cost is a greater concern. Some of the components in lithium ion batteries are expensive and no one knows for certain that making the batteries on a scale for use in the power grid will ever be economical. "We decided we needed to develop a 'new chemistry' if we were going to make low-cost batteries and battery electrodes for the power grid," Wessells said.

The researchers chose to use a water-based electrolyte, which Wessells described as "basically free compared to the cost of an organic electrolyte" such as is used in lithium ion batteries. They made the battery electric materials from readily available precursors such as iron, copper, carbon and nitrogen -- all of which are extremely inexpensive compared with lithium.

The researchers need to find another material to use for the anode before they can build an actual battery. But Cui said they have already been investigating various materials for an anode and have some promising candidates.
Nanoparticle Electrode for Batteries Could Make Grid-Scale Power Storage Feasible
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby AgentR11 » Wed 23 Nov 2011, 17:52:16

Just an addenda to the above, if a reader doesn't know. Several renewable energy sources make lots of energy, but have the bad habit of making the power at the wrong time. The point of a grid-capable battery, and why size doesn't matter, is you stick such a battery with a wind turbine, and the electricity generated a 2am that would otherwise be useless because baseload sources already have the full demand covered get stored, then in the afternoon, even if the wind dies, the wind farm itself is able to contribute the power it generated earlier. As wind farms are usually cited in the middle of nowhere (no offense to nowhere), it doesn't even matter if the battery is the size of a mini-mall; as long as it is durable, efficient, and reasonably priced.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 24 Nov 2011, 19:16:47

40,000 Cycles — Nanotechnology Catapults Battery Technology Forward, Once Again

Stanford University researchers have demonstrated a battery technology that is able to retain 83% of it’s charge after 40,000 cycles. (1 cycle is 1 charge and 1 discharge.) Lead acid batteries only last a few hundred cycles, and lithium-ion 1,000.

Please note that the cycle life of batteries is not the same as their shelf life. Some batteries, such as li-ion self-degrade even when not being used. Lithium-ion batteries would last 19 years if they did not self-degrade, due to the fact that they have a cycle life of 1,000 cycles, assuming that they are cycled once per week.

This new battery technology is similar to lithium-ion batteries but can use either sodium or potassium ions instead of lithium ions. Sodium and potassium are much more abundant and cheaper than lithium.

What the researchers did was start with a pigment called “Prussian Blue,” which is a compound of iron and cyanide, and they replaced half of the iron with copper, then they manufactured crystalline nanoparticles of the compound. Then they coated it on a cloth resembling carbon substrate. Then, finally, they submerge it in an electrolyte solution called potassium nitrate.

The electrodes exhibited 99% efficiency. “You want the voltage you put in during charging and the voltage you take out during discharge to be same,” Cui says. “Compared to any other battery material, this is absolutely the best.”


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Potentially better battery

Unread postby Timo » Tue 29 Nov 2011, 10:50:32

This discovery/development could really go a long way if they can figure out one last little detail. Cheap, immensely powerful, longer lasting batteries for the grid. They seem confident they can ultimately make this work. End result - significanly less need for fossil fuels. Renewable energy can be generated, stored, and used when needed.

Extreme Tech

Stanford, however, has developed a new battery electrode that can survive 40,000 charge/discharge cycles — enough for 30 years of use on the grid. Its ruggedness and longevity is a virtue of the material being used: copper hexacyanoferrate. This copper compound has a crystalline structure (pictured below right) that very readily allows charge-carrying ions to move in and out of the electrode. Further improving its performance, the copper compound is used in tiny, nanoparticle clumps of just 100 atoms. Much like the way that hole-punched graphene improves lithium-ion batteries, nanoparticles of the copper crystal mean that charge ions have less distance to travel.
Last edited by Ferretlover on Sat 03 Dec 2011, 12:52:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Shortened long URL; merged thread.
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby kildred590 » Wed 30 Nov 2011, 21:44:05

That doesn't work either. To charge a battery quickly you need high amounts of power from the wall, at these levels it's going to require high voltage and high current. All newer battery materials can do is allow faster charge acceptance at high power levels without suffering internal damage, the power from the wall will still be high. In fact to take advantage of the faster charge acceptance of the batteries the power from the wall needs to be even higher. For example to charge a 30 kWh pack in 6 minutes would take 300 volts at 1000 amps, or 600 volts at 500 amps, not counting losses. Nothing inside a battery can change that.


He didn't say the size of the battery, did he ? He might be comparing laptop batteries.

P = I x V
= 1 000 A x 300 V
= 300 000 V
= 300 kW, over an hour, 300 kWh
then 60 minutes/ 6 minutes = 30 kWh

say, a 15 A, 240 V outlet, maximum would be :

P = I x V
= 15 A x 240 V
= 3 600 W, 3.6 kW, over an hour 3.6 kWh
then 60/6 = 360 Wh, 0.36kWh
if that's half full, then the maximum capacity of the battery is 720 Wh, 720 W delivered over an hour.

---
if 100Wh is 360 kj, then to run the device for say, 3 hours would require :

360 x 3 x 7.2
= 7.8 Mj

So, what is the j/g figure ?
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Re: THE Battery Technology Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby JRP3 » Wed 30 Nov 2011, 23:15:09

Read the statement again:
"We can charge our battery to 50 percent of full capacity in six minutes while the traditional graphite-based lithium ion battery would be just 10 percent charged at the same current," Liu said.

That's the same as saying a one gallon bucket will fill in one minute from a hose putting out one gallon a minute, but their "new" one gallon bucket would fill faster from the same hose. If they are changing the voltage used then they are changing the "pressure" and therefor flow rate of the hose and it's not a valid comparison.
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Re: Potentially better battery

Unread postby steam_cannon » Thu 01 Dec 2011, 17:37:43

That's a discovery that could be great except it only solves half the problem of making it into a battery. Anyway, it's definitely a technology to keep an eye on.

The only problem is, a high-voltage cathode (-) requires a very low-voltage anode (+) — and the Stanford researchers haven’t found the right one yet; and so they haven’t actually made a battery with this new discovery. It’s an awesome battery in potentia. Stanford’s lead materials science engineer, Yi Cui, (who is a bit of a battery whizz), says they have some promising candidates for the anode, though.
"So people go out there and spend years of their life researching and applying strict scientific method, all in good faith, only to have their body of work discredited with sound-bite sized arguments in which they are accused of having some nefarious agenda." -mos6507
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