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Physics Concepts

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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby Simon_R » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 10:08:34

Interesting Subject, seems though, that no-one has defined what life is
Also there seems to be a confusion between the method of carrying information (Book/RNA) and the information itself, effectively what is information ?
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 13:40:29

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Complexity alone is insufficient for life to proceed. Ability of system to process information is critical.


Complexity and ability to reproduce are the only two requirements. Again, what does 'informatiion' mean?

Complexity plus reproduction and there you have it, a Gutenburg of life.

A virus is 'alive' by that definition BTW.

A lot stuff can 'reproduce' as well, by that definition: Water Molecules.

However, is there a significant limit to the complexity that can reproduce? Evidently not, and that is life.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 17:09:25

REAL Green wrote: “Universality is “an intriguing mystery…Why do certain laws seem to emerge from complex systems, he asked, “almost regardless of the underlying mechanisms driving those systems at the microscopic level?” https://www.quantamagazine.org/beyond-t ... -20141015/

Sabine Hossenfelder has something to say about it.
Look on her entry from Friday, April 03, 2020
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/

When it comes to a complete life it is better if science keeps to itself and spirituality to itself. A separation is in order reflecting human duality. The ego and the sacred can produce demons and in some ways science and spirituality is similar to this human condition.

Being pagan of pantheist tilt myself (and also an industrial scientist albeit no longer in the trade) I don't see any necessity to separate these two.
Hence my remarks about information as a separate entity absolutely critical for running for example life.
It is immaterial and meaningful for sure, so you may even call it "soul/spirit".
Physicists will usually bark on such interpretation but they will not deny critical importance of said information for existence of life, all in addition to usual material components.
This issue is actually quite perplexing for many scientists who are of materialistic world view and yet understand this subject.
Go an read very serious scientific works of very bright physicists dealing with holographic principle if in doubt.
You may also check another prominent theoretical physicist Roger Penrose and his ORCH-OR theory dealing with consciousness which he have proposed together with Mr Hameroff
My view is that science and spirituality can be reconciled and we might be on right tracks towards this goal.

Science is the problem now.

I believe that there is some knowledge, eg information present in Universe and yet not discovered that is best left hidden from us.
I believe that there is a knowledge which will allow us to tamper with life or other nanotechnology in such a way that extinction of most if not all of life which we know and humans together with it is going to result.
Further, I believe that upon accumulation of certain knowledge such technology could be developed on relatively low budget by a bright, lone maverick.

Physics is seeking the deepest realities of life like singularity.

I don't understand this phrase.
Singularity is usually pointing out that your theory have reached limit of application but as such singularity it is not real.
Its emergence tell you that you need better model (scientific theory) to deal with your problem at hand.

The whole discussion of a 100% renewable world is another. Cover the world in pannels and turbines is absurd. Humans are out of control because of the quest for knowledge without limits.

Economic collapse, resulting ruin and all ills related to it combined with constrains exercised by Nature should deal with it.

The higher power maintains balance and harmony by nature of its design. No way of knowing the higher power but that does not mean it should not be respected or the consequences are horrendous. Science can’t explain this because it breaks apart things in study instead of beholding all at once. Nothing can behold all at once and if it could it would stop in paralysis.

IMO this higher power is surrounding Nature - and undoubtedly she will take us off circulation at some point.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 17:24:04

jedrider wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Complexity alone is insufficient for life to proceed. Ability of system to process information is critical.


Complexity and ability to reproduce are the only two requirements. Again, what does 'informatiion' mean?

Woman in her 60-thies does not reproduce.
Does it mean that she is dead?
Information which I mention is needed to run multitude of chemical processes allowing cell to function.
It must be processed by living cell or otherwise life of said cell ends.
A virus is 'alive' by that definition BTW.

Virus is more condensed than a cell information package.
This information is copied...

Complexity alone is not enough for life.
If reproduction follows it implies that information I mention is copied.
But reproduction is of secondary importance.
It is only a feature of some living systems absent in other.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 30 Apr 2020, 17:29:50

Simon_R wrote:Interesting Subject, seems though, that no-one has defined what life is
Also there seems to be a confusion between the method of carrying information (Book/RNA) and the information itself, effectively what is information ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_i ... ion_theory
You will find there discussion how information as a distinct factor can be incorporated to equations of thermodynamics.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby Simon_R » Fri 01 May 2020, 03:11:21

Hi Energy

While information can be incorporated into formulae, indeed Formulae are a form of information

The Formulae is information as is the following statements

'The world is flat'
'The world is Round'

given that, is true, how can we justify the statement that the information is there, you just need to discover it somehow.
Seems to me, without an observer there is no experiment or information.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 01 May 2020, 06:58:17

Simon_R wrote:Seems to me, without an observer there is no experiment or information.


This is significant becuase it debates if intelligence is an underlying force in the universe with or without humans. There are many who feel intelligence pervades the universe and if so, intelligence is the higher power. If not, then the universe is an inanimate self-organizing design and intelligence is only an eddy spawned by its current found in intelligent life. Humans would be keepers of intelligence assuming no intelligent life elsewhere. I feel there is intelligence life elsewhere personally. It is a big neighborhood.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 01 May 2020, 09:10:10

Simon_R wrote:Seems to me, without an observer there is no experiment or information.

Measurement problem in QM is a very well known issue.
Many brightest brains in physics have fallen badly while attempting to resolve it.
Basically we have Copenhagen and Multiverse interpretations. Also few other less popular proposals.

First is telling about wave function collapse upon interaction with mythical observer what results in reality to exist.
This collapse is possible upon interaction with observer, though there are not yet successful attempts to demonstrate that any macroscopic object can serve this end.

Second is insisting that Universe splits upon forcing a quantum system to make a choice into multitude of new Universes with each of them carrying a distinct possible outcome.
But before an act of observation is made a system really exist as a superposition of all possible outcomes.
This view fills our everyday life with half dead cats and partially pregnant women, so I personally prefer Copenhagen interpretation, which on the other hand is mathematically ugly due to arbitrary discontinuum.

There are no indications at all where is the truth.
It is possible to run famous Schrödinger cat experiment in real life these days, so you are free to find out which version is correct (if any).
If Multiverse explanation is true you will find yourself immortal to this experiment regardless of number of repetitions despite of your family in parallel Universes removing number of your bodies in outcomes where conclusion was "dead".
But for yourself and only for yourself you will know.
But if Copenhagen interpretation is correct then every attempt gives you a 50% chance of death. So surviving 30 gives you 1 in a billion chance.
There are some discussions, also by professionals and on the net, of this experiment.
Search "quantum suicide".
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 01 May 2020, 09:37:37

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Simon_R wrote:Seems to me, without an observer there is no experiment or information.


There are no indications at all where is the truth.


Great ideas to ponder, EU. I would say this as a non-scientist pondering things, there is a point where human duality can't go. There is a point where the part can't know the whole. This is where science stops and the metaphysical of spirituality starts or maybe better why they should be separate. Human meaning is a dualistic exercise of contemplating right and wrong of things not only with morality but in the reality of things. Reality is what it is. Even if reality is being many realities like a quantum view there is still an "isness" that can’t be reduced by science to decipher if this is the case. It is very apparent the more we know the more questions arise.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby Simon_R » Fri 01 May 2020, 10:29:04

Hi Energy

To be fair the conundrum is way old than modern bright things, the old philosophical problem

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make any noise.

we are now just saying if no one enters the forest has the tree fallen

I would argue that in any discussion like this experimentation is a flawed medium, as you are then simply playing a statistical game (ie if I conduct an experiment and it works, do I conduct more, and if so, surely that is an acknowledgement of the flawed nature of this method of proof)

Talking about making a quantum system make a choice is leading you dangerously close to a planned universe, paradoxically the very thing (I was told) that the multiverse theory was setup to counteract

Thanks

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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 01 May 2020, 13:16:08

Bell's Theorem
Basically, the non-locality of wave function collapse of entangled states, one of the corner stones of quantum theory.

I believe it basically 'proves' that even entangled particles do not have any pre-determined state that can be measured until their wave function collapses.

Non-locality is something that is hard to get one's head around after Einstein demonstrated that the speed of light is a constant limit.

What if the Universe is a giant synchronized metronome and that resolves the wave function collapse enigma? The metronome's function is to introduce quantum randomness, like shaking the numbers in a powerball jar. That gives a purely mechanical interpretation of quantum mechanics. It is something a post Renaissance scientist/engineer could build a model of.

Would that get around Bell's Theorem?
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 May 2020, 14:22:35

Simon_R wrote:Hi Energy

To be fair the conundrum is way old than modern bright things, the old philosophical problem

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it make any noise.

we are now just saying if no one enters the forest has the tree fallen

I would argue that in any discussion like this experimentation is a flawed medium, as you are then simply playing a statistical game (ie if I conduct an experiment and it works, do I conduct more, and if so, surely that is an acknowledgement of the flawed nature of this method of proof)

Talking about making a quantum system make a choice is leading you dangerously close to a planned universe, paradoxically the very thing (I was told) that the multiverse theory was setup to counteract

Thanks

Simon

Interesting points, Simon.

Certainly, any experiments or proofs relying on statistics (like finding the Higgs Boson) do NOT feel as satisfying or solid as a strict mathematical proof, IMO. It reminds me of the famous mathemetician, Paul Erdos' "book" (where God keeps the perfect proof for all math theorems). The "proof" of the 4 color theorem by Appel and Haken, involving millions of examples, which a human couldn't reliably validate is the OPPOSITE of "from the book", for example. (And I know, this is an emotional reaction). Call me human. :|

The multiverse (if valid) pretty much wraps it up for organized religion, does it not? At least that was my initial assumption. And yet, perusing the net for a bit, there seems to be a long, ongoing argument about free will, with the argument going down deeper and deeper rabbit holes re assumptions, beliefs, etc.

Maybe it's just impossible for humans to seriously deal with such concepts (given how emotional we are, overall), re proving anything. We're better at, say, counting to three. :lol:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 02 May 2020, 01:27:02

REAL Green wrote:Great ideas to ponder, EU. I would say this as a non-scientist pondering things, there is a point where human duality can't go. There is a point where the part can't know the whole. This is where science stops and the metaphysical of spirituality starts or maybe better why they should be separate. Human meaning is a dualistic exercise of contemplating right and wrong of things not only with morality but in the reality of things. Reality is what it is. Even if reality is being many realities like a quantum view there is still an "isness" that can’t be reduced by science to decipher if this is the case. It is very apparent the more we know the more questions arise.

There are limits to scientific enquiry which are well recognized.
Call them known unknowable, if you wish.
The best known examples are coming from Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorem and related halting problem of computer program.
So we know that "no system can exist such that all its properties can be decided from within of the system itself."
This dictates that any mathematical construction must either be inconsistent or incomplete.
Because maths is the basic tool of physics then such considerations are also applicable to description of Universe.

There are also physical known unknowable, fore example initial conditions of beginnings of Universe or inner workings of black holes.
These kind of features are hidden behind event horizons, so cannot be investigated from within of Universe.

I suspect that origins of information which I mention as a critical factor required for life to exist and also origins of all other quantum information present in Universe are also in known unknowable territory.
So science does leave some space for spiritual realm to exist.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 02 May 2020, 01:38:46

Simon_R wrote:Talking about making a quantum system make a choice is leading you dangerously close to a planned universe, paradoxically the very thing (I was told) that the multiverse theory was setup to counteract

But Multiverse is religion, not scientific theory.

1. It is not falsifiable because we cannot probe anything out of our Universe.
2. It does not predict anything specific what could be falsified.
3. It doesn't pass Ockham's razor by creating infinite amount of unobservable entities.
In this sense all other religions are more more scientific because numbers of unobservable entities (Gods) are lower.

So it has no scientific value and its place is between other metaphysical concepts.
SO I concur with assertions of OS in this respect.

On the other hand planned Universe makes some sense at least for the possible planner.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 02 May 2020, 01:58:25

jedrider wrote:Bell's Theorem
Basically, the non-locality of wave function collapse of entangled states, one of the corner stones of quantum theory.

I believe it basically 'proves' that even entangled particles do not have any pre-determined state that can be measured until their wave function collapses.

Non-locality is something that is hard to get one's head around after Einstein demonstrated that the speed of light is a constant limit.

What if the Universe is a giant synchronized metronome and that resolves the wave function collapse enigma? The metronome's function is to introduce quantum randomness, like shaking the numbers in a powerball jar. That gives a purely mechanical interpretation of quantum mechanics. It is something a post Renaissance scientist/engineer could build a model of.

Would that get around Bell's Theorem?

I won't wade into making assertions related to resolving measurement problems in QM.
For what I know all the brightest people who have tried it have also failed. Few have gone insane, very much like mathematicians attempting to resolve possible patterns (or prove lack of any patterns) in prime numbers distribution (Riemann hypothesis regarding presence of non-trivial zero points of zeta function).

Saying that, I still believe that Moon is there even if no one watches.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby sparky » Sat 02 May 2020, 05:25:24

.
for practical purpose ,
I hold to a Newtonian world
I take the earth to be flat , mostly
the planetary atomic theory suit me just fine
I use it as a Lego block concept of Chemistry
all politicians are twisted egomaniac , else they would be working for multinationals
( actually quite a few do )
constitutional rights as piece of paper which might , or not, be relevant when the cops want to bust me

all those beliefs are very basic and wrong in the marginal grand scheme of things
but the grand scheme of things has zilch relevance in everyday affairs
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 02 May 2020, 15:26:49

@sparky,
But contemplating the grand scheme gives you a sense of calm and freedom.
In face of expansion of Universe or gravitational collapse of stellar cores those politicians and multinationals you mention are truly meaningless entities.
Very much like you or me btw. :)
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby sparky » Sat 02 May 2020, 19:17:37

.
Yes , contemplating the grand Kosmos from the infinitely grand to the infinitely small
led on to ponder about the rather meaningless turmoil of the everyday
still even though we are a point , a mote we experience feelings , pain pleasure and perceive beauty
one must find in oneself the meaning of all this , the universe will not answers in our language
life is not a legacy , it's an experience

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdUq2opPY-Q
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 03 May 2020, 10:43:04

As a child my friends and I would sleep under the stars on warm summer nights, all in our sleeping bags side by side in someones back yard looking up at the heavens. I remember back then and only being 12 years old we were already questioning infinity and the nature of the universe, the existence of god, and if there is an end of the universe there always has to be something on the other side.

Those warm summer nights germinated so much of my world view that I still carry with me to this day.
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Re: Physics Concepts

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 04 May 2020, 09:18:31

Ibon wrote:As a child my friends and I would sleep under the stars on warm summer nights, all in our sleeping bags side by side in someones back yard looking up at the heavens. I remember back then and only being 12 years old we were already questioning infinity and the nature of the universe, the existence of god, and if there is an end of the universe there always has to be something on the other side.

Those warm summer nights germinated so much of my world view that I still carry with me to this day.


I am working on my 12-year olds. I am forcing them outside to do work and sleep under the stars. It is a sound educational policy that I think did good for us, Ibon. I wish some of the other bad behavior we had back then did not happen so, on balance these young do have some advantages. In my world back in the late 70 - early 80’s the “work hard play hard” was a bad combination of wild and crazy justified by good grades and hard work. A lower impact is called for which means some of this vegetating on digital equipment is not so bad as compared to drugs, loud music, and who can jump off a higher bridge into a river type thing. Man, if I could do some things different! LOL.
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