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Peak Compute

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 20:19:52

pstarr wrote:
The following from . . . you guessed it . . . mooreslaw.org
Moore’s Law is a computing term which originated around 1970; the simplified version of this law states that processor speeds, or overall processing power for computers will double every two years.....
Who should know better?


The definition of Moore's Law as you've very kindly posted of us here specifies that processor speeds, or overall processing power for computers will double every two years.....

This definition makes it clear that both terms are equally applicable for defining Moore's Law, and they can be used interchangeably when describing Moore's Law.

Thats what the word "or" means. A good way to remember the meaning of the word "or" is to think "let's do this or that" ie. either one is OK.

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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 21:37:39

PEAKINT wrote:A slowing down, to me, is a peak. This is not like "running out of oil".

You can also call a unicorn a peak. It doesn't make it a peak.

It's always amusing to me that people think they can make up whatever random meaning for a word suits them, and claim it somehow bolsters their argument.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 21:39:59

Robot passes self-awareness test

a-robot-just-passed-the-self-awareness-test

Be afraid. Be very afraid. :idea:
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 21:46:49

davep wrote:
Peak Compute

A decrease in the rate of increase is not a peak, it's just a slowdown in the upward curve from exponential.

Right.

And it's not like faster chips aren't being developed (re: the 28 nm size repeatedly cited in this discussion). A week ago, IBM announced a viable 7 nm chip. It's expected for the 7 nm process to be in production in 5 years or so.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ibm-gets- ... 08686.html
Technologically speaking, the more a semiconductor chip is compressed, the less it costs to manufacture. At present, the standard chips that are used in the market are of 22nm or 14nm varieties. Even market leader Intel has been working on 10nm chips, reportedly.

...

It is also claimed that 7nm-based processors will provide 50% area scaling improvement and as much performance improvement over 10 nm chips, which are not even in the market now. As per a Feb 2015 report, Intel intended to make 10 nm chips available commercially by 2016-end or at the beginning of 2017.

And it's not like there haven't been ebbs and flows in the rate of progress in chips and hard drives over the past few decades. For exampe, for a while, hard drive capacities were MORE than doubling every two years.

Also, this is assuming the current technology is the only process to pursue. 3D chips are a possibility once the process size can't be shrunk. Photonics are another possibility.

I wouldn't be too quick to be talking about the end of massive computing power advances, even on a doomerish site. (We already lose enough credibility with all the wrong general "doom real soon" proclamations.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby ohanian » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 23:21:16

Plantagenet wrote:Robot passes self-awareness test

a-robot-just-passed-the-self-awareness-test

Be afraid. Be very afraid. :idea:


I hardly call a logical puzzle a self awareness test. These puzzles can be solved using logic and does not require any kind of self awareness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_puzzles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_knowledge_%28logic%29
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 00:04:17

Moore's Law hasn't done a damn thing for advancing the state of the art in Condensed Matter Physics. And this is the only hope for discovering new physics for energy storage because electrochemical "storage" (its a reactor, not a store) is not even close to doing the job.

As physicist Richard Jones states, the Energy Economy has been in decline for the past 40 years.

Shove Moores Law up Intels ass...it doesn't mean a damn thing in regards to progress.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 00:21:37

Where is the HOLY GRAIL of Water Splitting - Photoelectrochemical Devices?

Answer: Nowhere because of 40 years of shit science thanks to 'Moores Law' and the blind belief in faster computation will improve productivity.

Throw the computers in the trash can and bring back pencil and paper and sliderule.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 03:06:42

Modern processor technology has simply sidestepped Moores law by using multiple units instead of one "hairy smoking golf ball!" (a 1970s interpretation of over miniaturisation as limits were reached in heat distribution and connectivity). All of these issues have been overcome and this will continue to be the case as more and more processors are built into the modules in your average PC.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 03:13:35

I just posted a reply and the laptop crashed!! :roll:
Anyway here we go again,

Moores law has simply been bypassed by using multiple processors in parallel, using this method processing speed is (almost) limitless.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby davep » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 04:36:49

dolanbaker wrote:I just posted a reply and the laptop crashed!! :roll:
Anyway here we go again,

Moores law has simply been bypassed by using multiple processors in parallel, using this method processing speed is (almost) limitless.


The problem is that multiple CPUs aren't necessarily as efficient as a single CPU. There is a certain overhead in using multiple cores, and obviously a lot of apps don't use multiple CPUs efficiently:

Image
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby ohanian » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 07:40:50

https://youtu.be/EfGD2qveGdQ

AI learning how to play Atari computer games with ZERO human help.

Watch the youtube video and despair.... SKYNET is coming.

Deepmind technology wrecking old Atari games, presented by neuroscientist and game developper Demis Hassabis, Deepmind CEO.
(More information on this article : http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~vmnih/docs...)
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby dolanbaker » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 08:33:10

davep wrote:
dolanbaker wrote:I just posted a reply and the laptop crashed!! :roll:
Anyway here we go again,

Moores law has simply been bypassed by using multiple processors in parallel, using this method processing speed is (almost) limitless.


The problem is that multiple CPUs aren't necessarily as efficient as a single CPU. There is a certain overhead in using multiple cores, and obviously a lot of apps don't use multiple CPUs efficiently:

Image


:lol:

True!
But nothing that can't be sorted out with a bit of decent code.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby PEAKINT » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 20:43:57

Honestly I almost threw up


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu6vmNz-PhE


Kinda reminds me of Microsoft's other massive failure of a flop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d6ipg4oMzI

Yeah! Skynet is coming.

Only way Skynet is coming is if we ALREADY live in the Matrix.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 22:28:02

I'm looking forward to Windows 10 but ads like this full of slo-mo smiling multi-cultural babies and empty political stump-speech platitudes about how a company is making the world a better place turn my stomach.

Reminds me of this (IMHO, the most evil ad of all time)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KyjTGMVTkA
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby PEAKINT » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 22:35:06

ennui2 wrote:I'm looking forward to Windows 10 but ads like this full of slo-mo smiling multi-cultural babies and empty political stump-speech platitudes about how a company is making the world a better place turn my stomach.

Reminds me of this (IMHO, the most evil ad of all time)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KyjTGMVTkA


The greatest source of energy in the world : ourselves

ha

ha

ha
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 00:12:00

You information economy peoples are SCREWED:

http://www.gwern.net/Slowing%20Moore%27s%20Law

"the semiconductor industry is amazingly centralized: <14 companies make up the majority of global manufacturing. Much of the industry (like AMD or ARM) does not actually possess manufacturing facilities; they focus on research, design, and licensing."

"The costs they bear to build each chip fabrication plant is astounding, and increasing even as revenue growth slows (squeezing out many old companies)6; the basic equipment alone begin in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, lithography machines were $40 million a piece in 2009, and the most expensive single pieces of equipment (like steppers) can reach prices as high as $50 million dollars. The software licensing and engineering costs that go into a cutting-edge processor are equally staggering"

"A fab cost ~$1.5b in 1998, $2b in 2004, $3b in 2007, and $5b by 2010. Jurvetson wrote in 2004 that

Another problem is the escalating cost of a semiconductor fab plant, which is doubling every three years, a phenomenon dubbed Moore’s Second Law. Human ingenuity keeps shrinking the CMOS transistor, but with increasingly expensive manufacturing facilities - currently $3 billion per fab."

"The trend shows little sign of abating for a variety of reasons91011, and vastly outpaces inflation. At current rates, it is not impossible that the cost of a bleeding-edge chip fab may pass the $100b (inflation-adjusted) mark somewhere in the 2020s or 2030s"

"This leads to an interesting question: if a chip fab were destroyed, how well would the company weather it? It is difficult to answer this, but I will note that Intel’s 2010 revenue was $54b, TSMC’s was $14b and GlobalFoundries’s was $3.5b. It is not clear that chip foundry companies could survive the destruction of one or two of their fabs now, much less how financially robust they will be after another cost doubling or two."

"The China question

Like any good mercantilist developing East Asian country, China has set its heart on moving up the value chain of chip manufacturing and heavily subsidized local companies31. While it may dominate product assembly and the simplest chip fabrication, its full-strength processors like the Loongson is far from state-of-the-art (although this may give it an edge in power consumption at supercomputer scale). Asia is a major semiconductor consumer, and a great deal of general manufacturing has already shifted there; both Taiwan and China are potential competitors32.

If we accept the Loongson architect’s projection of parity with Intel etc in 20 years (2031), this means that the current situation of all cutting-edge chip fabs in reach of US power may face a serious barrier: chip fabs located in mainland China. China is one of the few military powers that can give the USAF a run for its money, and the other contender, Russia, is entirely out of the chip fab business. What happens in, say, 2041 with the Chinese chip fabs churning out mature optimized designs? At this point, the WBE Roadmap projections suggest that brain emulation could be feasible by the 2040s and so the target chip fabs may well have all been built in China.

Would China buy into any plan which the West somehow managed to agree on?

I consider the possibility remote for many reasons when I project forward from the China of 2012:

Economic growth is the chief mandate of the Chinese government, and anything that might sabotage that is opposed.
Rent-seeking and corruption are common, particularly with ‘prestige’ projects or extremely large business interests; if chip fab costs are brought under control, they will still be enormous pool of capital backed by even more enormous corporations. Such entities will be able to defend themselves and defeat any such agreements.

International agreements are seen as a tool of an international system stacked against China. Any requests or “meddling” in Chinese affairs is greeted with reflexive nationalism.
Conversely, international agreements are best seen as a form of legal warfare; an exponent of this view was the widely-read 199 text Unrestricted Warfare.
China feels entitled to anything the West did during its own development; if the West could pollute with carbon emissions, China may pollute (one of its main rationale for ignoring things like the Kyoto agreement or sabotaging climate-change talks). A similar argument may be used with chip fabs.

Speculatively, there may be more cultural comfort in China with the possibility of ‘robots’; at least, some Japanese have ascribed Japanese investment into robots as being due to such cultural traits (eg. Murakami 2005), and this may carry over to China. With little anxiety about the issue, why would they bother especially when the costs are so concrete and near?

All of these traits can change, and I fully expect many to change before 2040 (for example, I expect nationalism & xenophobia to decrease as the population ages, and respect for international law will increase as China increasingly becomes the country that benefits from a tidy status quo), but all of them, on top of the original unlikeliness?"
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 02:12:11

A very astute post SL, not many Asia buffs around here at all, least of all perhaps with in depth awareness of Chinese international relationships & thought mechanisms.

I can't help wondering though, when these decades out economic projections are made (by anybody) has consideration of predominant environmental factors in the same time period?
Energy availability, EROI for systems development, maintenance & redundancy, climate, water, biomass, population, rare earth for phones for 10 billion bike pedalling vegans¿

Maybe I'm wrong but I can't see BAU with regards to Moore's law recovering. I agree with your earlier post that for the essential existential equations & solutions for our situation have not gained from the bulk of what has become a blind alley, computing for computing's sake/ along with a huge distraction for the people perhaps most capable otherwise of effecting our otherwise tragic trajectory.

On your concern for the welfare of the IT profession, I have been saying this for years, in an international borderless market, any human input required will come from the cheapest capable labor force. Of course this equation needs to be continually minimised.

Apparently the latest article writing software fools most people that it's product is not human in origin, to such extent that once the test is exposed the subjects often reverse select, humans as bots, bots as human. Writing, other than as an art form, is a doomed profession.
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Re: Peak Compute

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 10:49:13

any human input required will come from the cheapest capable labor force. Of course this equation needs to be continually minimised.

Apparently the latest article writing software fools most people that it's product is not human in origin, to such extent that once the test is exposed the subjects often reverse select, humans as bots, bots as human. Writing, other than as an art form, is a doomed profession.


If you're suggesting that computers will program themselves, that's part of A.I.. It's something that's always predicted to be just around the corner, but never arrives, just like fusion power.

As for the race to the bottom on outsourcing, in my IT career, project-management/communication is a bigger limiting factor than coding skills. That's the hidden cost of outsourcing. You can easily outsource labor that doesn't require a tightly coupled team. Call-centers for instance. But it's much harder to get good results from outsourced programming.
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