[americandream]

Wouldn't the most effective way to make an invasive species extinct be to make the exploitation of that species into a profit-making industry?

For example, make a profit-making industry that cuts down pine trees for... furniture, wooden toys, whatever. All the pine trees in New Zealand would be gone in a matter of years. Decades, at most.

Want to make possums extinct? Totally unregulated hunting, and an industry based on possum fur.

If there's one thing humans are good at, it's making other species extinct!

Deregulated logging! Been there, done that. Which is why we now rope off isolated specimens of old native forest and pretend to be reviving them. You nutty deregulators got us into this mess in the first place. Lets have more business, lets leave people to do as they please, the market will sort out the mess!

Get up one morning and the native forests are gone, monoculture has taken over and securitisation is born!

However, I'm sure there's a few dopes out there that continue to believe your free market bullshit just as we have AGW denialists who will continue to deny even as their lawn turns to dust..

[Caffeine]

Deregulated logging! Been there, done that. Which is why we now rope off isolated specimens of old native forest and pretend to be reviving them. You nutty deregulators got us into this mess in the first place. Lets have more business, lets leave people to do as they please, the market will sort out the mess!

Get up one morning and the native forests are gone, monoculture has taken over and securitisation is born!

However, I'm sure there's a few dopes out there that continue to believe your free market bullshit just as we have AGW denialists who will continue to deny even as their lawn turns to dust..

That's not my point. My point is that if New Zealand officials really wanted to wipe out an invasive species (such as pines), that's how to do it. One thing that unfettered greed is very good for is wiping out plant and animal species.

If it were up to me, I would seriously consider the merits of keeping pines around as a wood source and (at least for some pine species?) a year-round source of vitamin C. If there is serious concern about pines outcompeting other species, allow a quota of X (with X being the number that ecologists, not business, feel is reasonable) pines to be cut down in a given year.

[Caffeine]

This is as futile as the Denali National Park in Alaska enlisting volunteers every spring to uproot Dandelion's because they are a European plant and not native to the Alaska forest ecosystem.

Interesting. Given how expensive it is to buy food in Alaska, I wonder if anyone has thought "Hey wait... this isn't an invasive weed, it's a food crop?"

[americandream]

Deregulated logging! Been there, done that. Which is why we now rope off isolated specimens of old native forest and pretend to be reviving them. You nutty deregulators got us into this mess in the first place. Lets have more business, lets leave people to do as they please, the market will sort out the mess!

Get up one morning and the native forests are gone, monoculture has taken over and securitisation is born!

However, I'm sure there's a few dopes out there that continue to believe your free market bullshit just as we have AGW denialists who will continue to deny even as their lawn turns to dust..

That's not my point. My point is that if New Zealand officials really wanted to wipe out an invasive species (such as pines), that's how to do it. One thing that unfettered greed is very good for is wiping out plant and animal species.

If it were up to me, I would seriously consider the merits of keeping pines around as a wood source and (at least for some pine species?) a year-round source of vitamin C. If there is serious concern about pines outcompeting other species, allow a quota of X (with X being the number that ecologists, not business, feel is reasonable) pines to be cut down in a given year.

The problem with these introduced pines is they tend to wipe out native customary plants with their thick canopies and thats where our loss really lies...in the loss of that diversity that may one day stand us in good stead.

[Caffeine]

The problem with these introduced pines is they tend to wipe out native customary plants with their thick canopies and thats where our loss really lies...in the loss of that diversity that may one day stand us in good stead.

Option A: Make all non-native New Zealand pines extinct.
Implementation: Allow a corporation/nonprofit/whoever to harvest every last pine tree on the island (and ONLY those pines). May have to do this more than once due to the pine's reproductive cycle, but I'm confident in the ability of humans to make other species extinct. (Maybe not most insects... but most other species, sure.)

Option B: Manage the population of New Zealand pines, in an effort to preserve native wildlife, without eliminating every last pine tree from New Zealand.
Implementation: Quota to cut down X number of pine trees (and only pines) per year. Ecologists survey the land on a periodic basis in an effort to keep the "balance" of native vs non-native plants wherever New Zealand wants it.

There are a couple of other options, such as introducing a predator/tree disease that thinks pine trees taste like chicken. Of course, introducing predator species may have unintended consequences.

[americandream]

The problem with these introduced pines is they tend to wipe out native customary plants with their thick canopies and thats where our loss really lies...in the loss of that diversity that may one day stand us in good stead.

Option A: Make all non-native New Zealand pines extinct.
Implementation: Allow a corporation/nonprofit/whoever to harvest every last pine tree on the island (and ONLY those pines). May have to do this more than once due to the pine's reproductive cycle, but I'm confident in the ability of humans to make other species extinct. (Maybe not most insects... but most other species, sure.)

Option B: Manage the population of New Zealand pines, in an effort to preserve native wildlife, without eliminating every last pine tree from New Zealand.
Implementation: Quota to cut down X number of pine trees (and only pines) per year. Ecologists survey the land on a periodic basis in an effort to keep the "balance" of native vs non-native plants wherever New Zealand wants it.

There are a couple of other options, such as introducing a predator/tree disease that thinks pine trees taste like chicken. Of course, introducing predator species may have unintended consequences.

This problem goes waaayy deeper than these pines. Its really all about how we interact with this land in a way that can be passed down to the generations that follow so as they may have the same breaks we did. We have cocked up in the past with short term policies and there lies the rub. Immediate or short term gain still dogs us.

Nothing short of a sea change in the way we live will change this myopic thinking and that my friend will only happen when we've a gun to our heads, figuratively speaking. After that, you can be damned sure we will change our wasteful ways.

[yeahbut]

Wouldn't the most effective way to make an invasive species extinct be to make the exploitation of that species into a profit-making industry?

For example, make a profit-making industry that cuts down pine trees for... furniture, wooden toys, whatever. All the pine trees in New Zealand would be gone in a matter of years. Decades, at most.

Want to make possums extinct? Totally unregulated hunting, and an industry based on possum fur.

If there's one thing humans are good at, it's making other species extinct!

Trust me, no one is going to make the possum extinct in NZ. The terrain is far too extreme and the bush far too dense, and their breeding too rapid. A conservative estimate of their number is 70 million, and this after years of extensive poisoning nationwide. They have a natural rate of increase of 20-30% annually in an environment that is not at saturation point. Therefore, hunting and trapping has to be intensive to have any kind of impact.

An industry based on possum fur already exists, and just needs more support and less of the poison drops.
There is no suggestion that this would result in extinction, but it just might create a consistent predator/biological control for the possum where one currently does not exist, thereby allowing the bush to come back, the birds to follow, and the ecosystem maybe get a chance to grab a breath.

[yeahbut]

You make it sound as if their long term plan is to do just enough to ensure they get to keep their job 'doing something' about the problem...

Could it really be that simple? All those bureaucrats just doing the bare minimum necessary to keep their jobs looking important without actually trying to solve the problems?

I think that most within the Dept of Conservation passionately believe in what they are doing, I really do. They have lofty goals and utopian dreams of the NZ bush returned to a pristine, pre-human state. They are just so far into a particular culture and way of looking at the world that they can't see any other possibilities, or the implications of their programmes. They see an exotic plant or animal species, and it is the devil, it must be eliminated, end of story. The fact that this is obviously unsustainable long-term, and undesirable in that the bush will never find a new balance while being 'weeded', seems to be of no concern. And the idea of commercial solutions, of people actually using a 'pest' species as a resource, is anathema. That's a stupid attitude IMO. Long-term, post peak, possums will be a valued source of fur and food, they could be already.

[americandream]

You make it sound as if their long term plan is to do just enough to ensure they get to keep their job 'doing something' about the problem...

Could it really be that simple? All those bureaucrats just doing the bare minimum necessary to keep their jobs looking important without actually trying to solve the problems?

I think that most within the Dept of Conservation passionately believe in what they are doing, I really do. They have lofty goals and utopian dreams of the NZ bush returned to a pristine, pre-human state. They are just so far into a particular culture and way of looking at the world that they can't see any other possibilities, or the implications of their programmes. They see an exotic plant or animal species, and it is the devil, it must be eliminated, end of story. The fact that this is obviously unsustainable long-term, and undesirable in that the bush will never find a new balance while being 'weeded', seems to be of no concern. And the idea of commercial solutions, of people actually using a 'pest' species as a resource, is anathema. That's a stupid attitude IMO. Long-term, post peak, possums will be a valued source of fur and food, they could be already.

For wild possum to be viably controllable in the current business model (and I mean viable as in consistent culling) would require all the wherewithal of the JIT style of supply our businesses depend on. Personally, I can't see a casual, seasonal source appealing to the big supermarket chains when they've established industries such as beef and chicken which means possum will remain a niche and a pest for the foreseeable future. Big business hasn't turned to the Chinese supply model for no good reason. The Chinese supply model is JIT on steroids.

[Tanada]

You make it sound as if their long term plan is to do just enough to ensure they get to keep their job 'doing something' about the problem...

Could it really be that simple? All those bureaucrats just doing the bare minimum necessary to keep their jobs looking important without actually trying to solve the problems?

I think that most within the Dept of Conservation passionately believe in what they are doing, I really do. They have lofty goals and utopian dreams of the NZ bush returned to a pristine, pre-human state. They are just so far into a particular culture and way of looking at the world that they can't see any other possibilities, or the implications of their programmes. They see an exotic plant or animal species, and it is the devil, it must be eliminated, end of story. The fact that this is obviously unsustainable long-term, and undesirable in that the bush will never find a new balance while being 'weeded', seems to be of no concern. And the idea of commercial solutions, of people actually using a 'pest' species as a resource, is anathema. That's a stupid attitude IMO. Long-term, post peak, possums will be a valued source of fur and food, they could be already.

For wild possum to be viably controllable in the current business model (and I mean viable as in consistent culling) would require all the wherewithal of the JIT style of supply our businesses depend on. Personally, I can't see a casual, seasonal source appealing to the big supermarket chains when they've established industries such as beef and chicken which means possum will remain a niche and a pest for the foreseeable future. Big business hasn't turned to the Chinese supply model for no good reason. The Chinese supply model is JIT on steroids.

Too bad the Possum is from the America's and is not strongly used in Chinese medicine. The way I understand it demand is so high for animal ingredients of some traditional medicines that the supply species are threatened with harvesting to extinction.

[kiwichick]

re tecnofix

there is work being done on sterilising the possums

this would be helpful as they eat the seedlings as well as
spreading T.B.

[kiwichick]

i would suggest that the NZ landscape will undergo significant
change as farmers in particular start planting more trees
for co2 sinks and plants/crops for biofuels

[americandream]

i would suggest that the NZ landscape will undergo significant
change as farmers in particular start planting more trees
for co2 sinks and plants/crops for biofuels

You want to bet?

[yeahbut]

re tecnofix

there is work being done on sterilising the possums

Yep. Has been for a long time, plenty of other ideas too. No suggestion that I am aware of that they are having any success, or are any closer to a practical solution. Given the long, long history of 'technofixes' for the rabbit(myxamatosis, calicivirus) none of which have worked long term, I think it's fair to say that waiting for the technofix is not an acceptable course of action, or reasonable justification for pursuing programmes that have no endgame in mind. We need a smarter plan than dropping poison in vast quantities into the bush, forever. There has to be a better way.

this would be helpful as they eat the seedlings as well as
spreading T.B.

No kidding. It's not just seedlings, it's massive amounts out of the canopy estimated at 21,000 tonnes per day
Our trees had no such herbivore feeding on them for 70 million years, so it's no surprise that they aren't coping too well. In it's native Australia(it's the Aussie possum, not the American one Tanada), trees co-evolved with the possum and have all kinds of defences such as spines, thorns, and poisonous leaves. Sadly, not so here.

[yeahbut]

i would suggest that the NZ landscape will undergo significant
change as farmers in particular start planting more trees
for co2 sinks and plants/crops for biofuels

You want to bet?

Hmmm, dunno if you should put any money on this one kc, there will have to a lot of planting done just to get us back to where we were before so much forestry land was converted to dairying as has happened over the last decade...

[kiwichick]

NZ farmers will very quickly move to where the money is

bet on it !!!

[Tanada]

No kidding. It's not just seedlings, it's massive amounts out of the canopy estimated at 21,000 tonnes per day
Our trees had no such herbivore feeding on them for 70 million years, so it's no surprise that they aren't coping too well. In it's native Australia(it's the Aussie possum, not the American one Tanada), trees co-evolved with the possum and have all kinds of defences such as spines, thorns, and poisonous leaves. Sadly, not so here.

Ah, sorry about that. I wonder how far back the common ancestor is? The "American" possum ancestor originated in Australia/Antarctica when they were one continent and migrated to South America when Antarctica and South America were touching circa 30 million years ago. Then when the Strait of Panama closed up they crossed over into North America. Just about the only Marsupial species that has successfully competed in the Placental dominated ecosystem that already existed in both South and North America.

[yeahbut]

I wonder how far back the common ancestor is? The "American" possum ancestor originated in Australia/Antarctica when they were one continent and migrated to South America when Antarctica and South America were touching circa 30 million years ago. Then when the Strait of Panama closed up they crossed over into North America. Just about the only Marsupial species that has successfully competed in the Placental dominated ecosystem that already existed in both South and North America.

Wow that's cool, I didn't know all that. I think that kind of understanding of the world- evolution, plate tectonics, the incredible time-scale of the earth- is one of the greatest things about being alive in this era, it's truly fascinating, we are mighty lucky to live in a time where so much is known. Of course, it's a shame that we had to spend so much of our planet's capital to get that knowledge, but I'll leave that thought alone for a change

And boy doesn't that show what tough, adaptive, competitive little buggers those possums are that they successfully made there way into an ecosystem already occupied by placental mammals...the poor mellow, flightless birds and defenceless trees of NZ never had a chance! (I forgot to say in previous posts that possums eat native bird eggs and young in addition to copious amounts of foliage)

[Tanada]

I wonder how far back the common ancestor is? The "American" possum ancestor originated in Australia/Antarctica when they were one continent and migrated to South America when Antarctica and South America were touching circa 30 million years ago. Then when the Strait of Panama closed up they crossed over into North America. Just about the only Marsupial species that has successfully competed in the Placental dominated ecosystem that already existed in both South and North America.

Wow that's cool, I didn't know all that. I think that kind of understanding of the world- evolution, plate tectonics, the incredible time-scale of the earth- is one of the greatest things about being alive in this era, it's truly fascinating, we are mighty lucky to live in a time where so much is known. Of course, it's a shame that we had to spend so much of our planet's capital to get that knowledge, but I'll leave that thought alone for a change

And boy doesn't that show what tough, adaptive, competitive little buggers those possums are that they successfully made there way into an ecosystem already occupied by placental mammals...the poor mellow, flightless birds and defenceless trees of NZ never had a chance! (I forgot to say in previous posts that possums eat native bird eggs and young in addition to copious amounts of foliage)

I learned about it a while back when I got interested in Mammalian evolution, my older brothers used to trap 'possums' for fur in the creek near our house growing up, and when I was in high school one of my classmates took over the trap lines because he considered it easy enough work to check the line every night and sell the furs to a trading company dealer.

Here is a result of a quick and dirt Google search, I picked this one because of the map, the article is pretty bland.

LINK

[yeahbut]

I'd be interested to know what the plans are as far as "fighting invasive species such as Asian carp" is concerned. Koi carp were released by some moron into the waterways here in New Zealand years ago, and are an absolute bastard- they're fast breeding, eliminate competing species and foul the water due to their habit of burrowing and thrashing around in river and creek banks. And they taste like mud. Short of chemically sterilising a body of water of every living thing and starting over, I am not aware of any effective measures that might be taken against these fish. So good luck with that, you're probably going to get an awful lot of taxpayer money being spent on measures that have no long-term effect, also a familiar concept in my home country...

As Tanada says, the most effective environmental protection is not making stupid choices in the first place, but sadly when a single individual can be responsible for the altering of an entire ecosystem (gee, I'm sick of this python, I think I'll go chuck it in the everglades), this is a forlorn hope indeed...