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Methane Hydrate Fuel (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Ice that Burns

Unread postby Twilight » Sun 04 Mar 2007, 18:00:36

If we have to strip-mine the floor of the Arctic, that means we have a problem, right? [smilie=icon_lol.gif]
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Re: Ice that Burns

Unread postby americandream » Sun 04 Mar 2007, 20:14:22

That's how the dream factory starts...with half a loaf of bread and just one slice of ham to make a sandwich.
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Re: Ice that Burns

Unread postby steam_cannon » Wed 07 Mar 2007, 01:28:21

Clathrates Hydrates may protect us from "Iceball Earth" scenarios...
And dredging could cause tsunamis...


To quote myself... wrote:
Shallow thinker wrote:Clathrates... ...Better to burn it before it melts on it's own from global warming

It seems that just the opposite is true.

Clathrates protect us from "Iceball Earth" scenarios. Clathrates structures are more pressure sensitive then temperature sensitive. When water is deposited on land as glaciers during an ice age, sea levels fall. This destabilizes millions of years of Clathrate deposits and helps to flip the climate back into a warm cycle. At least there is a strong possibility of this.

Simply Put: Clathrates in melting permafrost contribute to global warming immensely. But Clatrates underwater protect us from death by permanent ice age. So it is quite possible that if we do find a way to harness this energy, then it's a real devils bargain we're getting into.

Anyway, that is just one way to look at how Clathrate hydrate may fit into earths ability to sustain life.

Clathrate hydrate = Clathrates = gas hydrates =
methane from under the ocean --> what ever you want to call it...

Of course ruining a stability mechanism of the earth is just one problem with the stuff. Clathrates are also unstable, difficult to bring to the surface (with any efficiency or accuracy), and in thinner layers then previously thought making extraction of meaningful volumes difficult to engineer. Simple dredging does not work and is dangerous(possibly generating mudslides and tsunamis).

Lindsey Grant wrote:Clathrates. For completeness, let me mention the last faint hope of those who cling to the fossil era. Clathrates are globules of ice and methane widely distributed on the continental shelves of the world’s oceans, and in the tundra. It is a highly dispersed resource. To disturb the clathrates is to pose the danger of releasing the methane (which is a potent greenhouse gas) or possibly generating mudslides and tsunamis on the sloping continental shelf in the mining process, and large scale dredging would inflict damage on marine fisheries beyond anything that fishing trawlers have yet inflicted.

The scientific consensus seems to be that clathrates are a highly uncertain and potentially disruptive source of energy, but Japan in its tireless search for energy has led at least two expeditions to see if the methane can be captured.
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Frozen Gas Hydrates Off New Zealand

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 29 May 2008, 04:04:30

Frozen Gas Hydrates Off New Zealand Holds Substantial Gas Resources

Frozen gas hydrates which lies just below the seabed deep off New Zealand's East Coast may contain a future resource of over 8 trillion cubic feet of natural gas, says Stuart Henrys, a senior research scientist at GNS Science.

Research shows that sheets of gas hydrates, made up of ice-like crystals of water and methane molecules intermixed with sediments, are found over 50,000 sq km from offshore Marlborough to offshore Gisborne.


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Re: Frozen Gas Hydrates Off New Zealand

Unread postby solarpoweredlasers » Wed 04 Jun 2008, 06:48:32

I hope we're never silly enough to actually try and use them.
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'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:39:19

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090323143858.htm

In the future, natural gas derived from chunks of ice that workers collect from beneath the ocean floor and beneath the arctic permafrost may fuel cars, heat homes, and power factories. Government researchers are reporting that these so-called "gas hydrates," a frozen form of natural gas that bursts into flames at the touch of a match, show increasing promise as an abundant, untapped source of clean, sustainable energy.
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby davep » Thu 26 Mar 2009, 15:42:04

Who wants more Glob?
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 26 Mar 2009, 16:40:35

Clean?

We're talking about methane hydrates. AKA, natural gas in solid form.

There might be fewer particulate emissions but we're still talking about a huge quantity of carbon dioxide and methane.

We would still have serious climate change problems.
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby anador » Thu 26 Mar 2009, 16:51:34

Methane hydrates can only form and remain stable at certain temperatures and pressures on the ocean floor. They are formed as natural gas vents from the crust through these cold, deep regions of the ocean. It would be easier to collect the natural gas venting in the area of the formations rather than the incidental formations themselves. They can only form in the presence of bountiful natural gas, it would be easier and more efficient to just get the gas from the underground deposit rather than this completely frivolous curiosity.

It seems that whenever someone takes something from the ocean and sets it on fire it's suddenly hailed as the new energy solution.
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby sameu » Sat 28 Mar 2009, 19:13:27

lol good luck with mining that stuff
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby Minvaren » Sun 29 Mar 2009, 20:26:55

The stuff is being dumped into our atmosphere at an increasing rate with the permafrost melting faster than ever. There have also been writeups in Discover talking about how "it's all over" if one of these large pockets of it under the sea floor gets to the surface.

I am beginning to get the impression that this is a "we're stuffed either way" issue - because burning it increases greenhouse gases, but enough methane in the atmosphere gives us bigger problems.
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 02 Apr 2009, 21:00:17

Hey check this out. There's lots of this stuff in Alaska's North Slope too! And the USGS says lots of it is already "technically recoverable!"

http://www.doi.gov/news/08_News_Releases/111208.html

Maybe that gas pipeline from Alaska is a good idea after all. ;)
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 02 Apr 2009, 22:47:45

In the case of these Alaskan deposits, for some reason most of them do not appear to be located underwater. I can't tell from the article *where* they're located, but most of their study area is on land.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby copious.abundance » Thu 02 Apr 2009, 22:57:37

I think this is the crux of these Alaskan deposits:
“For more than 25 years, the USGS has conducted gas hydrate research in northern Alaska, showing the investment of our agency in understanding this resource,” said USGS Director Mark Myers. “This is especially important now that a growing body of evidence indicates that concentrated gas hydrate accumulations in conventional hydrocarbon reservoirs, such as those in northern Alaska, can be produced with existing technology.”

Among the various techniques for production of natural gas from gas hydrates, depressurization appears to be the most promising method. This involves changing the pressure of the hydrate accumulation, which changes the resource from a solid state into components of gas and water that can be produced to the surface. Depressurization was the only production technique assessed in this estimate.

In other words, these particular hydrates are locked up in all the oil and gas fields on the North Slope - in addition to the regular oil and gas. Apparently hydrates need not always be located on an ocean floor.
Stuff for doomers to contemplate:
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1190117.html#p1190117
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1193930.html#p1193930
http://peakoil.com/forums/post1206767.html#p1206767
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sun 05 Apr 2009, 18:30:36

Tyler_JC wrote:Clean?

We're talking about methane hydrates. AKA, natural gas in solid form.

There might be fewer particulate emissions but we're still talking about a huge quantity of carbon dioxide and methane.

We would still have serious climate change problems.



But it will keep large conglomerates in control of energy, thus money gets put forth towards 'solutions' such as this or hydrogen, which in the long run, won't solve anything...
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: 'Ice That Burns' May Yield Clean, Sustainable Bridge To Glob

Unread postby anador » Tue 07 Apr 2009, 00:29:49

OilFinder2 wrote:I think this is the crux of these Alaskan deposits:
“For more than 25 years, the USGS has conducted gas hydrate research in northern Alaska, showing the investment of our agency in understanding this resource,” said USGS Director Mark Myers. “This is especially important now that a growing body of evidence indicates that concentrated gas hydrate accumulations in conventional hydrocarbon reservoirs, such as those in northern Alaska, can be produced with existing technology.”

Among the various techniques for production of natural gas from gas hydrates, depressurization appears to be the most promising method. This involves changing the pressure of the hydrate accumulation, which changes the resource from a solid state into components of gas and water that can be produced to the surface. Depressurization was the only production technique assessed in this estimate.

In other words, these particular hydrates are locked up in all the oil and gas fields on the North Slope - in addition to the regular oil and gas. Apparently hydrates need not always be located on an ocean floor.


Just use your brain for a minute. The vast majority of natural gas is obtained from oil deposits anyway, when the pressure changes hydrates become natural gas, its the same thing as conventional natural gas recovery.

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