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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 30 May 2017, 06:55:29

WildRose wrote:. And the non-meat-eaters I know are intelligent, successful and very active and engaged people, not at all like the people you describe, Ibon.


I know it was a bit of an unfair caricature on my part. Vegans and vegetarians come in all shapes and sizes and dispositions. I acknowledge of course that are many intelligent vegans and vegetarians who are mature individuals who have made this choice for health reasons and out of environmental concern. We do also have guests who are undemanding vegans and vegetarians and not overly focused on themselves.

It was the other category of earnest self absorbed vegans that we sometimes get. You feel you are being subtlety judged from this place of superiority, there is something condescending you sense. Believe me, this category is well represented in the vegan community.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 30 May 2017, 07:28:17

" You feel you are being subtlety judged..."

Only you can create your own feelings...don't blame others for them. To paraphrase Truman, I don't give 'em hell...I just tell the truth, and to them it feels like hell.

Holy criminy, if I let others' views overly affect how I feel, how do you think I would take all the constant rudeness and ridicule constantly poured on vegetarians and vegans around here, or just on those who want to reduce their meat consumption.

And if you caricature and ridicule people and their choices, what reaction do you expect from them.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 30 May 2017, 08:30:28

dohboi wrote:"

And if you caricature and ridicule people and their choices, what reaction do you expect from them.


You know the famous quote........Do unto others as they would do unto you.

Which is your point. And my point as well. I admit to a certain adolescence on my part when it is irresistible to jest with anyone, vegan or not, who does unto others what they themselves get offended over.

To the point Dohboi, it is you who always start this by posting new threads vilifying meat eaters. The whole title of this thread starts is singling out "meat eaters" as killing the planet. So you are doing onto others something that when it is returned to you makes you all upset.

That is just like those Christians (not all Christians) who are sanctimonious in their condemnation of non believers but then they turn around and feel so quickly persecuted and victimized when secular folks tease them.

I must admit that teasing vegans when they take this position is really hard not to do. I confess a bit of adolescence here but you are starting it every time and then in classic progression you switch to feeling victimized by all the carnivorous posters who you claim are being defensive about their meat eating.

This really has nothing to do with vegans and eating meat, but a lot to do with recognizing the game we play here.

Get real Dohboi. Let's see if you can man up here. You are innocent here ? You just post facts abut meat eaters with absolutely no initial intent on judgment? Killing the planet etc.

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 30 May 2017, 15:33:23

Thanks for the thoughtful comment.

I do tend to post on articles I find interesting, especially when they seem at least somewhat valid (though I don't always agree with everything in articles I post on, not even on the main premise) and point to either the gravity of the situation we face or to some way that we could at least contribute less to the problem. In this case, it can't very well be that I imagine myself standing on some high horse looking down at the sinful masses, since I do, occasionally, eat meat. (Since my main purpose for doing so is to avoid waste, if I am served meat in a restaurant by mistake, I generally eat it.)

I invite you to post on articles you find that make a reasonable claim that vegans or vegetarians, just by not eating meat (or dairy), are posing a grave threat to the planet.

I think we shouldn't avoid pointing out when a preponderance of good evidence and expert judgment has shown that a particular activity is causing harm, even if doing so may bruise some delicate egos of those partaking in said activity.

I must say, though, that I have done the above wrt flying, driving, general consumption, having kids...and I don't really get the same kinds of defensiveness from those engaged in those activities as I do from committed meat (and dairy) eaters when bring up the negatives of those activities (and the positives of vegan/veggie diets).

I'm curious to know if you or others have ideas on why it is specifically on this subject that people get so touchy. I have some theories, but I'm thinking it is probably a complex set of causes, and probably different for different folks, depending on their backgrounds, perhaps.

Thanks ahead of time for any light anyone can cast on that issue.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 30 May 2017, 18:47:20

dohboi wrote:I invite you to post on articles you find that make a reasonable claim that vegans or vegetarians, just by not eating meat (or dairy), are posing a grave threat to the planet.


I am not arguing this point and have nothing to add

I think we shouldn't avoid pointing out when a preponderance of good evidence and expert judgment has shown that a particular activity is causing harm, even if doing so may bruise some delicate egos of those partaking in said activity.


In human overshoot everything in excess is what causes harm. Examples.....Burning fossil fuels at a rate (hypothetical 10 million barrels a day) instead of the current 80 million probably would not even contribute to global warming as the sequestration rate would be in balance with consumption. I am not saying exactly at 10 million but at some hypothetical rate. It is not the burning of fossil fuels it is the excess burning of fossil fuels.

Fresh water aquifers could be just like a bank account, you draw on the reserve in dry years and allow to replenish in wet years to insure that the aquifer is a renewable resource. Today we are sucking aquifers dry... Marine fisheries, topsoils, you name it, you get the idea, it is not the consumption but the rate and excess of consumption beyond carrying capacity.

Eating meat, specifically beef, falls into the exact same category, we can eat meat, we can pasture livestock at lower densities, we can reduce erosion in riparian habitats. It is not the act of eating meet, it is the excess production, feed lots, industrial agriculture which is the problem. Read upstream on this thread once again what I wrote about our livestock here at Mount Totumas; no antibiotics, no growth hormones, only grass fed, no grain, no feedlots before harvesting, low density pasturage. If the whole planet raised beef like this there is zero evidence that eating meet is harmful for the planet. Of course there would be millions of less cattle so the issue again is not the eating of meat but the rate.

By the way, human population falls into this exact same category. Humans aren't killing the planet. It is the excess of humans that are killing the planet. Humans are just like cattle in this regard and you could change the title of this thread to Humans are Killing the Planet. Dohboi, you said there is very good evidence that eating meat is harmful to the planet. Just like your point I can assure you I could come up with some damn good evidence that humans are killing the planet too! :)


I'm curious to know if you or others have ideas on why it is specifically on this subject that people get so touchy.


Here are some origins. My dads siblings, all farmer stock, were completely critical of my sister and my brother when they announced 30 odd years ago that they were vegetarians. The origins of this sensitivity or touchiness around eating meat or choosing to be vegan or vegetarian still has an echo from our agrarian past when we would burn 3000- 5000 calories a day doing hard labor and toiling in the fields. Eating meat was an important component of this high calorie, intense labor output. Even though today we don't do this physical work there is still this association that anyone who is a vegetarian or vegan is not someone who can cut down a tree with a cross cut saw or mix cement in a wheelbarrow or clear pastures with a machete etc. This is changing since today we are a society whose physical labor output is very compatible with being a vegetarian or vegan since we hardly burn any calories in a day.

So this is a generational issue in part, but once our industrial civilization goes into decline a big percentage of our population will go back to burning thousands of calories a day and many of the diet preferences we see today will shift accordingly.

Additional reason for the touchiness or sensitivity is that eating meat is an individual choice, just like the freedom to breed or consume. They are all in the same category. When it comes to asking someone to consider eating LESS meat for health or even ethics I think this is more palatable then when it becomes binary and a black and white choice. It's bad for the environment or bad for your health if you eat meat probably deserves a bit of strong reaction from meat eaters because there is nothing nuanced in such a statement, much like the title of this thread.

The 3rd reason is the one we addressed above, the subtle judgement you sometime get from vegans or vegetarians. The post from Wildrose was good as it pointed out that there are many vegetarians and vegans who are smart and open and their choice does not carry any condemnation to others who choose differently. We have these guests as well here, those who don't carry any judgement or political baggage with their choice, and then there the the others I mentioned whose choice is accompanied by a lot of baggage. This latter group does create a visceral reaction from carnivores.

I can't come up with any other insights except what I mentioned above which I will post again here

Ibon wrote:The ability to bond and recognize the inherent worth of a small being like this calf at the same time as you recognize its resource as a food requires that you are firmly rooted both in your compassionate and carnivorous nature. They are not incompatible.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 30 May 2017, 21:04:46

Thanks again for the thoughtful comments.

You may have noticed that I have been on this site for a good little while and posted my share (perhaps beyond by share :) ) of thoughts here. It is my experience from the beginning that one gets the most vigorous discussions when one states a position clearly and forcefully. If you start with stating every last nuance, generally people just go back to sleep.

So thanks to you and all for the vigorous discussions. It is these that keep me coming back, even if they get ... touchy...at times.

As to "it is the excess production, feed lots, industrial agriculture which is the problem" I can generally agree with that, but it doesn't fit very well into the subject box for these discussions and probably wouldn't generate much of the same discussion.

I still find that bringing up meat issues, as opposed to population or even general consumption, seems to bring out a much more visceral response from many, and I am still a bit baffled by that fact. It may be generational as you say, but given that you, and probably others, have family members and others dear to them who have made the choice to eat much less or now meat/dairy, it is a bit surprising that those intimate connections don't in some way temper the reactions. Most studies show that even passing close familiarity with people who practice a belief system or lifestyle different from one's own generally makes one more accepting of said practice. Not so much this one, apparently.

I do think that, as Michael Pollan and others have pointed out, as omnivores who can really eat and survive on quite a range of possible diets, that we as a species, tend to take certain choices about diet as definitional of our very being. It is a particularly intimate and deep part of our identities, even more than what car we drive (or choose not to drive) or how may kids we have (or choose not to have).

But none of this makes me the least hesitant to prod these aspects of people's identities and perhaps jog some into thinking about them in new ways.

But then, I've never seen a hornets nest I didn't want to give a good wack at! :) :)

So I encourage you and all to keep thinking and keep questioning as we spiral down the toilet bowl of overshoot. About the only thing this moment in history and in human consciousness is that is good and precious is the possibility that some, at least, may wake up a bit, look at themselves deeply, and reconsider who they are and who they might want to become. I certainly continue to do this, even in my dotage.

Best wishes to all in whatever journey they are on.

Goodnight, and bon appetite!

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 31 May 2017, 06:45:42

dohboi wrote:It is my experience from the beginning that one gets the most vigorous discussions when one states a position clearly and forcefully. If you start with stating every last nuance, generally people just go back to sleep.
This same tactic may be used by those apposing your views. In this case meat eaters may be less touchy then you assume, you are just getting a stronger reaction because you presented your case without nuance.

So thanks to you and all for the vigorous discussions. It is these that keep me coming back, even if they get ... touchy...at times.

Thanks. Me too.


I still find that bringing up meat issues, as opposed to population or even general consumption, seems to bring out a much more visceral response from many, and I am still a bit baffled by that fact.


You had quite a visceral response when I suggesting eating bugs. So you also demonstrated this behavior in reference to suggesting a different diet. I lived in Thailand for several years where terrestrial arthropods are an important part of the local diet. Foreigners often assumed that the locals ate insects because they were poor. Once we had a very wealthy Thai family from Bangkok visiting our resort and our mango trees had a delectable large beetle infestation. This species of beetle has a plump abdomen that is stir fried with garlic and chilies and kafir lime. It is comparable to shrimp. This family had the locals climb the tree and shake the limbs and they gathered dozens of these beetles. In countries where insects are eaten they are relished by the poor and rich alike. Think about it a minute. If you also assumed that eating bugs was something that only poor people do than you are also demonstrating the same kind of visceral response and a judgement on another diet.

These same cultures in SE Asia ferment crabs, fish or shrimp in large glass bottles where they let them soak in salt and spices in water for up to a couple of weeks. I can assure you that it smells like decaying rotten fish during that first week. But after 2 weeks they filter out all the spices and the dark brew is fish sauce, they cook with it. This often brings a very visceral response to foreigners, one of disgust. But guess what? These Europeans and North Americans who find this disgusting will turn right around and eat aged grueyer cheese or parmesan or blue cheese and find it delectable. This is rotten milk, allowed to age and ferment and get pre digested by bacteria. Try giving this cheese to a SW Asian fishermen in a small village and watch his face twist into complete disgust.

So these examples do show something you mentioned. That eating habits are deeply cultural and deeply ingrained and challenging folks on what they eat and claiming it is not good for them will usually bring about a visceral response. It's not just meat eaters.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 31 May 2017, 14:31:47

I have no problem with eating bugs. So you misread me there.

It just struck me as a diversionary tactic to bring it up, to me.

And yes, I do get upset at red herring and other logical fallacies and diversionary tactics. But your follow up helped me see that the bugs, for you at least, may not be completely a red herring (more like a red aphid, perhaps?? :-D :-D )
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 05 Jun 2017, 08:15:32

LOL

That moniker is, of course, foisted on me by the PTB here, presumably for my inordinate quantity of posts.

My preference would be that they give me the same title as Samuel Johnson's definition of lexicographer: "a harmless drudge"! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 05 Jun 2017, 23:46:59

Hmmmm, sounds like somebody is buggin' out...again! :-D :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 06 Aug 2017, 22:17:18

If Everyone Ate Beans Instead of Beef

With one dietary change, the U.S. could almost meet greenhouse-gas emission goals.


“I think there’s genuinely a lack of awareness about how much impact this sort of change can have,” Harwatt told me. There have been analyses in the past about the environmental impacts of veganism and vegetariansim, but this study is novel for the idea that a person’s dedication to the cause doesn’t have to be complete in order to matter. A relatively small, single-food substitution could be the most powerful change a person makes in terms of their lifetime environmental impact—more so than downsizing one’s car, or being vigilant about turning off light bulbs, and certainly more than quitting showering.


To understand why the climate impact of beef alone is so large, note that the image at the top of this story is a sea of soybeans in a silo in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest. The beans belong to a feed lot that holds 38,000 cattle, the growth and fattening of which means dispensing 900 metric tons of feed every day. Which is to say that these beans will be eaten by cows, and the cows will convert the beans to meat, and the humans will eat the meat. In the process, the cows will emit much greenhouse gas, and they will consume far more calories in beans than they will yield in meat, meaning far more clearcutting of forests to farm cattle feed than would be necessary if the beans above were simply eaten by people....

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ef/535536/
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 08:22:33

dohboi wrote:If Everyone Ate Beans Instead of Beef

With one dietary change, the U.S. could almost meet greenhouse-gas emission goals.


“I think there’s genuinely a lack of awareness about how much impact this sort of change can have,” Harwatt told me. There have been analyses in the past about the environmental impacts of veganism and vegetariansim, but this study is novel for the idea that a person’s dedication to the cause doesn’t have to be complete in order to matter. A relatively small, single-food substitution could be the most powerful change a person makes in terms of their lifetime environmental impact—more so than downsizing one’s car, or being vigilant about turning off light bulbs, and certainly more than quitting showering.


To understand why the climate impact of beef alone is so large, note that the image at the top of this story is a sea of soybeans in a silo in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest. The beans belong to a feed lot that holds 38,000 cattle, the growth and fattening of which means dispensing 900 metric tons of feed every day. Which is to say that these beans will be eaten by cows, and the cows will convert the beans to meat, and the humans will eat the meat. In the process, the cows will emit much greenhouse gas, and they will consume far more calories in beans than they will yield in meat, meaning far more clearcutting of forests to farm cattle feed than would be necessary if the beans above were simply eaten by people....

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ef/535536/


Pure propaganda level BS. Feedlot cattle are typically fed a mix of soybeans and maize, which causes their digestive systems to produce large quantities of bio-methane. Feeding them alfalfa or better yet mixed plant forage eliminates the methane issue from cattle. Switching the beans from the cattle to the humans just means the bio-methane would be coming from the human gut instead of the cattle gut, doing zero to solve the problem. Feeding humans a well balanced omnivore diet like our digestive system works best with and feeding cattle a leafy green diet like their digestive system works best on is the solution to this man made feedlot based problem.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 08:26:51

The greenhouse gasses that no ones talking about, climate Science 101. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ygsdHJjdI
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby efarmer » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 09:23:16

The Chinese used the soy bean in agriculture to fix nitrogen in soil for other food crops
and after a long period,ate the root and greens, and then began fermenting them to make digestible products for human consumption, like soy sauce, miso, tofu, that made them a protein source without the
various downsides if the beans are directly consumed. Not sure if this fermentation
produces equivalent greenhouse gas as compare to putting beans in cattle guts, but
the scale of course was vastly smaller than the factory farm feedlot.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 11:39:08

Chemical Composition of Farts

The exact chemical composition of human flatulence varies from one person to another, based on his or her biochemistry, the bacteria inhabiting the colon and the foods that were eaten.

If the gas results from ingesting air, the chemical composition will approximate that of air. If the fart arises from digestion or bacterial production, the chemistry may be more exotic. Farts consist primarily of nitrogen, the principal gas in air, along with a significant amount of carbon dioxide. A typical breakdown of the chemical composition of farts is:

Nitrogen: 20-90%
Hydrogen: 0-50% (flammable)
Carbon dioxide: 10-30%
Oxygen: 0-10%
Methane: 0-10% (flammable)
Lighting Farts on Fire - The Blue Flame

Human flatus may contain hydrogen gas and/or methane, which are flammable. If sufficient amounts of these gases are present, it's possible to light the fart on fire. Keep in mind, not all farts are flammable. Although flatus has great YouTube fame for producing a blue flame, it turns out only about half of people have the archaea (bacteria) in their bodies that are necessary to produce methane.

If you don't make methane, you may still be able to ignite your farts (a dangerous practice!), but the flame will be yellow or possibly orange rather than blue.

https://www.thoughtco.com/chemical-comp ... rts-608409

Perhaps your personal gut lacks the appropriate bacteria for methane production but there are at least 3.5 Billion humans who do, presuming the 50/50 split is accurate.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 14:13:03

T wrote:

"Feeding them alfalfa or better yet mixed plant forage eliminates the methane issue from cattle"

Maybe, but that is not what is actually happening by and large. So since we aren't in that fantasy world at this time, in this actual world, every person who decides to not eat such beef (or a lot less of it) is doing a lot to reduce their CC footprint.

Your argument is like saying, hey, they can now make airplanes that run on electricity and that electricity could in theory all come from wind, so flying really isn't a problem.

I'm sure you would not accept such an argument from others. That you came up with just as bad a one suggests just how far very intelligent people will go to use use their considerable brain power to rationalize their own behaviors.

Thanks for the stunning demonstration of this important principle! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 16:55:52

Oh, and thanks to all responders for keeping this important thread bumped up to the top of the non-stickies! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 17:17:52

One important point to add that maybe has been discussed and is quite relevant to this thread. This just came up today at Totumas as I was guiding 4 guests.

Natural grasslands in prairies and savannas and above tree line in mountain areas represent the natural original habitat of ruminants. Keeping this habitat available for cattle makes sense.

Now every time you convert a tropical forest to a grassland this is an artificial habitat. You can maintain the grassland only with heavy use of herbicides and human labor because pioneer species are constantly trying to return this habitat to forest. So all of the Amazon basin and all of the tropical areas of the world where cattle land has replaced forests represent a double negative. First the methane production of the cattle and the loss of sequestration of CO2 from the lost forest.

The best solution really would be to return all "artificial" grasslands to forest, establish meat production in existing natural grassland areas, maintain conservation areas for native species, and then calculate how much meat production you can get from these areas.

IF a steak costs $ 45 dollars a pound due to the supply and demans problem of this scenario then so be it.

Meal worms. crickets, squid and chicken are far cheaper.\


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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 17:30:31

Thanks for the insights, Ibon

I should point out, thought, that as I understand it, a good portion of what most would have considered the 'natural grassland range' at the time Europeans came across it of the (especially eastern) Great Plains was actually maintained by mostly intentional fires set by various Native Americans.

https://www.nps.gov/tapr/learn/nature/fire-regime.htm

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallgrass ... ns_Map.svg

So your designations may not always be as clear cut as a cursory look would suggest. :)

I 'unnaturally' maintain the micro native grassland in my front and back yard by artificially burning it down on occasion!! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 18:06:33

I feed my chickens Certified Organic fish meal http://www.fertrell.com/fishmealwnaturox.htm $70 for 50 lbs. This is dried ground and preserved with tocopherols- 60% PROTEIN From ocean caught fish without market for human consumption-I imagine its the GUTS SCALES HEADS AND ALL. And it doesnt taste all that bad So don't let someone tell you that eating healthy proteins costs to much.
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