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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby jawagord » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 18:06:34

pstarr wrote:
onlooker wrote:Since this thread is now bordering on the absurd, so let us restate some basic facts. Meat eating takes up huge amounts of land that equates to less trees, more nitrogen runoff, more synthetic fertlizer use and pesticide use, more use of mechanized vehicles, more GHG emissions, less biodiversity. All facts and all by most measures negative outcomes. Nutritional arguments are a sidetrack to the main premise of the original post

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 85071.html

That is not true. There are some basic misunderstanding here regarding meat production.

Dairy cattle (not meat cattle) are penned for much of their lives, eating fodder. Dairy cattle spend hours, twice every day in milking parlors and pens, awaiting milking. Dairy cattle are off pasture in the winter and must be fed. Milk production is energy intensive. Not meat cattle production.

Meat cattle (unlike dairy cattle) spend their lives (all season out West and deep south) on pasture and range, grazing on grasses. Free pasture. Not irrigated. Not fertilized. Meat cattle only go into pens for a few week for grain fattening. Meat cattle production is less energy intensive than milk production. Milk is relatively bad. Steaks are good lol

Meat cattle now graze where bison grazed. No net gain or loss of methane emissions.

Humans slaughter cattle humanly. Wolves slaughter bisons with undo nastiness.


I would add that much of this land that grows animal feed is unsuitable (or unprofitable) for growing crops for human consumption. Take corn, humans can only consume the kernal which is ready at plant maturity, cows, dairy cows can be fed corn silage where the entire corn plant is cut green and used for feed, plus the farmer might get 2 crops of corn for silage off the land, yielding a crop tonnage of maybe 10:1 for animal feed vs human. Raising animals for consumption is not the inefficient process the vegan climate changers would have us believe. The real problem (if it is a problem) is too many people, not what they eat.

http://utbfc.utk.edu/Content%20Folders/ ... sp434d.pdf
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby longpig » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 17:27:36

I eat a Vegan diet, I mostly eat potatoes, rice, bread and some fruits. The number one issue is over population, meat eating is further down the list of the causes of the number of environmental problems we face.

That said consuming animal products is very bad for health, it is number one cause of atherosclerosis and heart attack, diabetes, cancer, kidney failure, gout, gall stones, arthritis and other degenerative diseases. Eating a basic diet saves you a lot of money, reduces your environmental foot print dramatically (thou it defeats it if others expand their foot print because you have reduced yours) and you will be so healthy you will never need to see a doctor.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 18:00:21

I recently viewed a video titled "Neanderthal". It somewhat surprised me to learn that many of the chronic problems experienced by modern humans derive from Neanderthal DNA. The Neanderthals left Africa long before modern humans, and evolution adapted them to survive in Europe and Asia during the most recent Ice Age. Then modern humans and Neanderthals interbred, hundreds of times. About 70% of the Neanderthal genome can be found in modern humans, although very few individuals have more than the typical 2% to 10%. (One group of Africans living in sub-Saharan Africa has 0%, they inhabit the area called the "Cradle of Humanity".)

Obesity, heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, high serum cholesteral, and many other chronic diseases are the legacy of the Neanderthals and their Ice Age adaptations. When one is not living on stored belly fat for all of an extended Winter, these cold weather adaptations do considerable harm to an individual's health.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby GHung » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 18:15:23

I'm grilling a couple of HUGE porterhouses in honor of this thread.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby longpig » Sat 27 Oct 2018, 18:45:31

GHung wrote:I'm grilling a couple of HUGE porterhouses in honor of this thread.


I'm going to eat a large sweet potato in honour of this thread.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 08:12:31

I just rediscovered this chart of the history of percapita meat consumption broken down by country.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ate-change

Note that in 1962, China's annual per capita meat consumption was a mere 3.8 kg (~8.4 pounds). That's basically what most of us would call a vegetarian who occasionally 'falls off the wagon.'

India's was about the same (and continues to be quite low, while China's meat consumption has skyrocketed).

Many other of the most populated countries in the world (Pakistan, Bangladesh, North and South Korea, Japan) also had consumption rates about this low or lower. These are also places that do not eat any dairy, or (for most in South Asia) very little.

This all confirms what I have said many times here and elsewhere: Through most of post-ag-revolution history, most people have been mostly vegan most of the time.

Being mostly vegan is the global norm, not some fringe, wierdo diet. And it is a diet that has sustained people for generation after generation.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby GHung » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 09:44:46

dohboi wrote:I just rediscovered this chart of the history of percapita meat consumption broken down by country.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ate-change

Note that in 1962, China's annual per capita meat consumption was a mere 3.8 kg (~8.4 pounds). That's basically what most of us would call a vegetarian who occasionally 'falls off the wagon.'

India's was about the same (and continues to be quite low, while China's meat consumption has skyrocketed).

Many other of the most populated countries in the world (Pakistan, Bangladesh, North and South Korea, Japan) also had consumption rates about this low or lower. These are also places that do not eat any dairy, or (for most in South Asia) very little.

This all confirms what I have said many times here and elsewhere: Through most of post-ag-revolution history, most people have been mostly vegan most of the time.

Being mostly vegan is the global norm, not some fringe, wierdo diet. And it is a diet that has sustained people for generation after generation.


The chart is a bit skewed in that it doesn't include fish (unless I missed something). Asians, especially SE Asians have generally gotten much of their protein from fish and seafood. Maybe we need a thread titled "Seafood Eaters Are Killing The Oceans, So Now They Eat More Pigs And Cows", eh?

In terms of consumption footprint per capita, the Republic of Korea scored highest (78.5 kg per capita), followed by Norway (66.6 kg), Portugal (61.5 kg), Myanmar (59.9 kg), Malaysia (58.6 kg) and Japan (58 kg) – China comes in seventh at 48.3 kg per capita.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2018-09-fish-cons ... n.html#jCp


Fishes' large carbon footprints to be included in seafood eco-labeling

A new study has led researchers to call for a review of seafood 'eco-labels', which currently exclude consideration of the substantial carbon footprint left by the seafood industry.

In assessing the carbon emissions at every stage of the seafood journey from the ocean to the dinner plate, researchers have previously found that seafood products can have extremely large carbon footprints – up to 14 times the product's own weight.

"In addition to fuel use in fishing – which often requires travel to the farthest reaches of the oceans – the seafood industry's carbon footprint is also the result of the energy inputs resulting from the large amounts of feed required to support fish growth in aquaculture. Of course, another key input to seafood carbon emissions is the refrigeration required at all stages of the seafood journey," said lead researcher Dr. Elizabeth Madin.

Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2015-04-fishes-la ... d.html#jCp
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby aspera » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 12:27:27

KaiserJeep wrote: When one is not living on stored belly fat for all of an extended Winter, these cold weather adaptations do considerable harm to an individual's health.

Even when one is surviving an extended winter (and the "weeks of want") using belly fat, these adaptations do considerable harm. The chronic stress response allows for survival during harsh times, but at a cost. The biological pathway is the HPA axis (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal)

The physiological outcomes include:
    -- Raises fluid retention
    -- Raises fat storage
    -- Raises blood lipids
    -- Raises alertness
    -- Raises emotional responsiveness
    -- Eventual suppression of immune responses
Modern chronic stressors (e.g., somebody always being wrong on the internet) trigger the same HPA pathway (the drip-drip-drip of Cortisol). And that's why I try to follow the "Let go or be dragged" advice.

Yearly famine (our SOP until just over a century ago, right around when fossil fuels became the dominate energy source according to Smil) was a chronic stressor, but so is the looming effect of climate disruption, energy descent and environmental degradation.

And without a surplus of net energy we might revisit those famines. Drip Drip Drip.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 14:12:43

That said consuming animal products is very bad for health, it is number one cause of atherosclerosis and heart attack, diabetes, cancer, kidney failure, gout, gall stones, arthritis and other degenerative diseases. Eating a basic diet saves you a lot of money, reduces your environmental foot print dramatically (thou it defeats it if others expand their foot print because you have reduced yours) and you will be so healthy you will never need to see a doctor.


Google dr Bernstein and find out how wrong you are.

He was born in New York City in 1934.[1] In 1946, at the age of 12, Bernstein developed type 1 diabetes. For more than two decades, Bernstein was what he calls "an ordinary diabetic"—one who dutifully followed doctor's orders. Despite his diligence coping with the condition, the complications from his diabetes worsened over the years; by the time Bernstein reached his 30s, many of his body systems had begun to deteriorate.[2]


He is still alive and keeps ticking thanks to eating meat.
Everyone who has diabetes or prediabetes should read his book.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 14:18:01

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30376075/

Data Extraction: Two investigators evaluated 275 studies against the inclusion criteria (original studies in humans, written in English or Spanish and including vegetarian or vegan diets and omnivorous diets as factors with BMD values for the whole body, lumbar spine, or femoral neck and/or the number of fractures as the outcome) and exclusion criteria (articles that did not include imaging or studies that included participants who had suffered a fracture before starting the vegetarian or vegan diet). The quality assessment tool for observational cohort and cross-sectional studies was used to assess the quality of the studies.

Results: Twenty studies including 37 134 participants met the inclusion criteria. Compared with omnivores, vegetarians and vegans had lower BMD at the femoral neck and lumbar spine and vegans also had higher fracture rates.

Conclusions: Vegetarian and vegan diets should be planned to avoid negative consequences on bone health.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 15:01:24

GHung, good point/question.

I was under the impression that they included fish under meat, along with chicken, etc. I noticed that many very poor island nations had higher rates of meat consumption than other poor nations, and I assumed that is because of their access to fish. But it would indeed help if the article was clearer on that definitions.

The most basic meaning of meat is the flesh of animals, but it is true that for many the default meaning is flesh of mammals.

Yonnnipuns points seem to be:

1) there is one person in the world who may have benefited from eating meat.

(I'll just grant you that one, 'cause...who cares!?)

2) People should think about what they eat.

(Well, yeah. That applies pretty well to everyone, I should hope! :) )

Thanks for everyone for your thoughts.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 15:50:19

Also keep in mind the east Asian diet had a significant portion of marine mammal meat in it. Japan and Taiwan still do though in the latter country it is considered black market consumption.

While a fish is a fish a marine mammal be it seal, walrus, sea lion, dolphin, porpoise or whale is much more like beef or pork than it is like cod or tilapia. In Japan hunting the smaller marine mammal for personal consumption is a tradition going back thousands of years and has full government approval while hunting whale for commercial sale is marginally practiced Japan has now turned to imports from Norway to meet demand for commercial whale meat. Strangely enough those censored censored people in the Sea Shepherd organization attack whaling by the Japanese but ignore whaling by Norwegians. Kind of racist in my opinion. Selective whaling is no different than any other kind of hunting, it can easily be done in a humane and sustainable fashion. Pretending otherwise is simply an anti-hunting campaign based on sea mammals as a first step. The whales hunted by Scandinavian nations and Japan are in no danger of extinction but the so called 'greens' in the IWC are still in control no matter what the science says.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 16:32:47

Yonnnipuns points seem to be:

1) there is one person in the world who may have benefited from eating meat.


Are you kidding?

Diagnosed with type 1 diabetes in 1946 at the age of 12, Dr. Richard K. Bernstein never set out to be a doctor. Not only that but according to statistics from the American Diabetes Association, he should have been long dead by now.


That he is very much alive and, in fact, in excellent health, can be attributed to two primary causes. The first is that he was originally trained as an engineer and attacked his disease as a problem to be solved and not a condition to be treated. The second is that he was fortunate enough to still to be alive when the first blood glucose meters arrived on the scene.


In 1969, after following ADA guidelines for more than twenty years, Dr. Bernstein had many of the debilitating complications of the disease. Sick and tired of being at the mercy of his disease, he obtained one of the early blood glucose meters. Hardly the cheap and common instrument it is now, the device was intended for a very small and specialized niche: To help keep hospitals from inadvertently allowing comatose diabetics to die at night when their labs were closed, because a diabetic in a coma smells of ketones and can be easily mistaken for someone who has been drinking heavily.

Dr. Bernstein obtained one of the devices at the princely sum of about $700—today, based on inflation, that’s nearly $5,000. Dr. Bernstein used himself as a guinea pig and began testing his blood glucose throughout the day, hoping to discover what made it go up and down. After considerable trial and error, not to mention research, he discovered that he could normalize his blood glucose through diet, exercise and medication—and that he could help others do the same.

This was his elegant, landmark breakthrough: The only difference between a diabetic and a non-diabetic is high blood sugars. All of the complications of diabetes are caused by high blood sugars. Therefore, if you can normalize blood glucose, you can prevent the complications or make them go away, which is exactly what a cure would do.


Except that when the then-engineer Richard Bernstein tried to persuade the medical community that he had found the answer, the medical community roundly ignored him—even told him that it was impossible. So, in his mid-forties, he decided the leave his successful career in business and go to medical school.


Today, many thousands of patients and readers later, Dr. Bernstein continues to see and train patients, maintains a busy schedule that includes a monthly question-and-answer teleconference, and continues to refine his cutting edge program of blood glucose normalization. He reaches more patients than he ever could have back when he first opened his practice—and slowly, too slowly perhaps, the standard of care has been changing to mirror his ideas.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby GHung » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 18:14:01

Tanada wrote:Also keep in mind the east Asian diet had a significant portion of marine mammal meat in it. Japan and Taiwan still do though in the latter country it is considered black market consumption.

While a fish is a fish a marine mammal be it seal, walrus, sea lion, dolphin, porpoise or whale is much more like beef or pork than it is like cod or tilapia. In Japan hunting the smaller marine mammal for personal consumption is a tradition going back thousands of years and has full government approval while hunting whale for commercial sale is marginally practiced Japan has now turned to imports from Norway to meet demand for commercial whale meat. Strangely enough those censored censored people in the Sea Shepherd organization attack whaling by the Japanese but ignore whaling by Norwegians. Kind of racist in my opinion. Selective whaling is no different than any other kind of hunting, it can easily be done in a humane and sustainable fashion. Pretending otherwise is simply an anti-hunting campaign based on sea mammals as a first step. The whales hunted by Scandinavian nations and Japan are in no danger of extinction but the so called 'greens' in the IWC are still in control no matter what the science says.


My main issue with hunting and eating Cetaceans is that I consider them to be highly intelligent and sapient creatures, perhaps more sapient than humans. Seems almost like cannibalism.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 20:21:24

Ghung,
I think that is Sea Shepard founders Watson’s belief also.

I’m out of date but my most recent knowledge was that Sea Shepard had given up on the Jamal was whalers because the government was suooortjng them with surrvielance data, tracking Sea Shepard, so they could be avoided.

Sea Shepard has also been active in fighting “rouge” fishing vessels that target endangered species. They have been responsible for several ships being “retired” (scuttled).

I can’t speak as to why they leave the Norwegians alone. Didn’t know about that.

They are an odd group who have no overt financial support/ lfubd raising operation. Supposedly 100% of their operating funds come from voluntary donations. Probably just another way to get at the money. But Watson does seem to be something of a purist. An origional founder of the Sierra Club (I think) who left/kicked out when he accused them of pandering and fraud. They have removed him from their list of founders so I suspect he is doing something right. Even if you disagree with his principals he seems to have them.

Anyway, it seems the a Chinese are grossly over fishing the oceans and lying about their catch, greatly exceeding quotas. Not good. Not for them, not for us, not for anyone.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 22:12:58

GHung wrote:My main issue with hunting and eating Cetaceans is that I consider them to be highly intelligent and sapient creatures, perhaps more sapient than humans. Seems almost like cannibalism.


I used to buy into that theory as well, but upon reflection I don't see much evidence to support the claims. The thing is for example an African Elephant has a brain that masses well over twice that of the human brain, however despite that vast size it has around one third of the neuron connections that a human brain has. IOW despite being over twice as large it has about one third of the 'computational capacity' divided up over that larger mass.

It isn't just how physically large a brain is that matters, the complexity of the connections between the neurons is what allows brain matter to function in more complex ways.

Here are a few mammal brain to body mass ratios, you can love or hate what they imply but the reality is the larger a physical body is the larger the brain must be simply to operate the structure of that body. A Sperm Whale has a massive brain, but compared to its body mass it is a quarter the size of a random cow in a pasture in comparative size. Maybe a Bottlenose Dolphin is half as smart as the average human, but that would place their IQ around 50 and they lack manipulative extremities which would allow them to build anything. All they can do is swim and hunt fish, hardly an intellectually stimulating way of life. Give them arms and hands to manipulate their environment and perhaps they would weave fishing nets and prove to be quite smart, but the reality doesn't allow such a test. Sure people can teach dolphins and seals and killer whales to preform stunts for audiences, but you can also do that with dogs and their average brain size matches up with a walnut so its not a very convincing argument.

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dissident » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 00:21:34

Consuming mostly carbohydrates is a bizarre diet. The so-called vegetarian cattle and sheep actually do not consume carbohydrates. They let the bacteria in their ruminant stomachs consume the carbs and produce fatty acids. So these "vegetarian" animals are actually living off fatty acids. Telling humans to eat the mythical vegetarian diet shows no understanding and no consideration for health. It is a vapid, ideologically contrived diet plan.

As has been pointed out, cattle can be raised on land that does not support grain or vegetable agriculture. If some zealot is going to invoke CH4, well, then let's play. The amount of CH4 emitted by rice paddies is enormous. The IPCC estimated it to be 60 Tg/year which is about the same as all livestock (i.e. 15% of the global total anthropogenic CH4 emissions). And O am ignoring the contribution of biomass decomposition from the rest of agriculture.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 00:33:30

Dis, you seem to have diverged from your usually very scientific approach here, and not really responded to my main point above. '...mythical vegetarian diet..." wtf?? All to protect your sense of righteousness in eating your precious burgers?? Very strange. But the kind of thing I've come to expect from many knee-jerk meat addicts, here and elsewhere. (And, by the way, there are many ways to be vegan without ever eating any rice, but nice attempt at cherry picking. :) )

Others seem to have gone even further off topic, but still a mostly interesting conversation...thanks.

Again, I see no evidence that the definition of 'meat' used in the study above was any other than the most basic definition 'flesh of any animal' including mammals and fish (as well as marine mammals).

Does anyone dispute may basic point that, since the agricultural revolution, at least, most people have been eating mostly vegan diets most of the time throughout most of history...?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 02:05:19

https://youtu.be/aohXOpKtns0

Not unrelated... check out the link of some old footage of 1911 manhatten. Notice not a single obese person on the streets.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 27 Nov 2018, 14:58:56

dohboi wrote:Does anyone dispute may basic point that, since the agricultural revolution, at least, most people have been eating mostly vegan diets most of the time throughout most of history...?


Yes I would dispute that given that the East Asian population domesticated both ducks and chickens for meat and egg production and include animal products in most meals it is an odd claim to say 'mostly vegan'. Back when I was young Vegetarian generally meant you did not eat 'red meat' but milk, eggs and fish were all part of the balanced vegetarian diet. As time marched on Vegetarian went from those 'loose' standards to 'strict vegetarian' where marine life was eliminated from the diet and then went even stricter with 'vegan' diets that eliminated all animals products including eggs and dairy.

As a rule of thumb 'meat' is generally taken to mean red meat from livestock or hunting, poultry is a separate category and all marine animal life is lumped together whether they be shellfish, scaled fish, or any other variety. In modern parlance Americans and Europeans seem to classify marine mammals as a third marine category but but this practice is far from universal, the majority of the 7.5 billion humans wandering around do not make that distinction.

There are a rare few cultures that practice forms of vegetarianism, but on the large scale I do not know of any culture that follows the 'vegan' no animal products permitted standard you seem to be implying is common around the world. In Sub-Saharan Africa 'bush meat' or fish are used in place of livestock when their is a short supply, in the Middle east and North Africa where Islam dominated beef, goats and sheep are all consumed in abundance. In east Asia Pork, Duck and Chicken are preferred protein sources along with the aforementioned fish and marine mammals. In Australia Beef and Mutton are fondly consumed, and the prior population and its descendants still hunt wild game for protein.

India with its large population of Hindu believers comes closest to your claims but even there version of vegetarianism encourages the consumption of milk products and a large number of Hindu believers only avoid Beef and Pork while consuming other sources of meat.
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