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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 05:15:44

More reasons to avoid meat:

Antibiotic resistance could spell end of modern medicine, says chief medic


Prof Dame Sally Davies says action is needed around the world to tackle ‘hidden’ problem that is already claiming lives

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... hief-medic

World Economic Forum 2013 - Antimicrobial Resistance


In the 2013 Global Risks Report, a chapter entitled “The Dangers of Hubris on Human Health” warned about the growing risks associated with complacency towards antimicrobial resistance (AMR). It highlighted two underlying drivers: the overuse and misuse of antibiotics, in both human health systems and livestock management; and the fact that no new classes of antibiotics had been invented since the 1980s. The chapter noted newly emerging resistance to the strongest class of antibiotics, carbapenems. It cited estimates of 100,000 AMR-related deaths in US hospitals and 80,000 in China. The potential economic impact was put at 0.4% to 1.6% of GDP.


and the scale of the problem quantified:-

Huge levels of antibiotic use in US farming revealed
specifically in livestock raising

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... g-revealed

and the response by the EU (under pressure) is to abandon any effective response.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... resistance

Antibiotic apocalypse
...
The UK’s chief medical officer, Dame Sally Davies, has warned that failing to act could lead to a post-antibiotic apocalypse, spelling “the end of modern medicine” as routine infections defy effective treatment.

Some studies predict that antimicrobial resistance could cost $100tn (£75tn) between now and 2050, with the annual death toll reaching 10 million over that period.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 10:59:29

https://www.facebook.com/garytvcom/vide ... DM1Mzk5Ng/

A good breakdown of many of the not-thought-through assumptions expressed here and elsewhere
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 12:38:37

Nonsense. All primates are omnivores. In fact, most are cannibals. When a baby chimp/bonobo/gorilla/baboon is orphanned by the death of the mother, the rest of the troop eats him, entrails and fingerbones and all.

As for the antibiotic resistence, that is happening anyway, has been happening for decades, and meat eating at worst makes it only incrementally more serious.

I would like to know if you are taking the proper nutritional supplements for your vegan diet. I know Vegans - and Hindus - who avoid such because many - in fact most such supplements - contain animal products. Those that do not tend to be sold at premium prices. If you are not taking such supplements, then get a clue about why your thought processes don't resemble mainstream humanity:

However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.

and
Compared with lactoovovegetarians and omnivores, vegans typically have lower plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations, higher prevalence of vitamin B-12 deficiency, and higher concentrations of plasma homocysteine (72). Elevated homocysteine has been considered a risk factor for CVD (73) and osteoporotic bone fractures (74). Vitamin B-12 deficiency can produce abnormal neurologic and psychiatric symptoms that include ataxia, psychoses, paresthesia, disorientation, dementia, mood and motor disturbances, and difficulty with concentration (75). In addition, children may experience apathy and failure to thrive, and macrocytic anemia is a common feature at all ages.


If you don't know of the nutritional deficiencies associated with Vegan diets, then read this to start:

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/89/5/1627S/4596952

....and take the proper supplements. After a few months of proper nutrition you may regain normal and conventional reasoning processes, as long as you have not been doing this long enough to cause permanent brain damage.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 12:44:17

B-12 is only available from meat. Or from Monsanto. It's bioenginered.

Or there is this;
Feces are a rich source of vitamin B12, and are eaten by many animals, including dogs and cats.[20][21] Lagomorpha species, including rabbits and hares, form fecal pellets in their cecum called cecotropes, which consist of chewed plant material that has been metabolized by cecal bacteria; cecotropes contain digestible carbohydrates and B vitamins synthesized by the resident bacteria. These animals ingest cecotropes which have been expelled in their feces


Cecotropes, the new vegan snack treat. Yum! Granola-Chip Cookies now with cecotropes instead of carob chips! Butter- AND Fun-Free :x 8)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 13:48:09

KaiserJeep wrote:Nonsense. All primates are omnivores. In fact, most are cannibals. When a baby chimp/bonobo/gorilla/baboon is orphanned by the death of the mother, the rest of the troop eats him, entrails and fingerbones and all.



First a great article relevant to this thread on The Atlantic titled "How Humans Became Meat Eaters". I would recommend it for everyone to read.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... rs/463305/

Some clarifications on KJ's post. Most apes are omnivores, particularly our closest relatives, Chimpanzees and Bonobos.

Mountain Gorillas on the other hand are almost vegetarians except for a small percentage of invertebrates that they eat. Because their diet is mostly vegetarian they eat massive amounts daily.

Primates which include all monkeys vary wildly in their diets. Here at Mount Totumas we have howler monkeys which are almost exclusively vegetarian and in fact eat almost exclusively leaves, pollen, flowers and some fruit. They have the slowest metabolism of the three species of monkeys here for this reason. Small territories. White-faced Capuchins and Spider Monkeys are high metabolism, acrobatic, have large territories and eat invertebrates, small vertebrates, fruit and leaves.

The most carnivorous primates are Humans followed by Baboons and chimps and bonobos.

There are so many diets possible for humans being omnivores. Little doubt that the healthiest diet for humans would be largely vegetarian with lots of nuts and fruit, greens and a modest amount of animal protein.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 14:48:43

Then how do Gorillas source vitamin B12? It would seem intrinsic to primate physiology. Do gorillas eat you-know-what?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:06:48

pstarr wrote:Then how do Gorillas source vitamin B12? It would seem intrinsic to primate physiology. Do gorillas eat you-know-what?


Gorillas thrive in wet areas, tropical forests and lushly vegetated mountain highlands. About 3-5% of their diet by bulk and 10-15% of the calories they eat is termites and catapillers. Chimps and bonobos tend to favor ants and termites, but also eat birds, bird eggs, and small mammals. Baboons eat small rodents, birds, and even the newborn of larger animals like antelopes whenever possible.

Animal protein with B12, all.

We would doubtless all be healthier if less than 10% of our diet was meat. But most of us eat far more than that. The Vegans are a fringe group, and suffer the mental abberations of dietary deficiency much worse than Vegetarians who consume dairy products. All adverse impacts can be avoided with modern dietary supplements, but many don't take such.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:15:28

There are so many diets possible for humans being omnivores. Little doubt that the healthiest diet for humans would be largely vegetarian with lots of nuts and fruit, greens and a modest amount of animal protein.


I would not be so sure about it. What fits to one person could be completely wrong for the other one. For example when I eat just one banana my blood sugar goes through the roof shortly after consuming it. I try to eat as low carb as possible.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:32:12

If I don’t eat a banana a day I get heart palpitations.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 15:33:55

We would doubtless all be healthier if less than 10% of our diet was meat


Why do you think that? For example take a look at this guy who eats meat, only meat , and nothing but the meat:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjLUN0oAjhk/?taken-by=shawnbaker1967

505 pounds for 11 reps at the age of 50.

shawnbaker1967I understand physiology better than 99.999% of people, that’s just the way it is- for those of you that think the fact that I had a testosterone test which showed a low number means anything more than a transient reflection of a dynamic system, display an extremely rudimentary understanding of human physiology- Anyone that truly understands how complex of a system humans are will concede there are literally thousands of variables, many of which are still unknown, that play a role in the ultimate function of the system- if you want to worry about numbers, worry about how much fucking weight is in the bar!! #fueledbysteak #carnivorediet #beastmode
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 16:34:13

pstarr wrote:Then how do Gorillas source vitamin B12? It would seem intrinsic to primate physiology. Do gorillas eat you-know-what?


See the following info. I put in bold the important text.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9084900271

Abstract
Vitamin B12 concentrations were determined by radioassay in the housefly, five species of termites, and 17 other phylogenetically diverse insect species. Vitamin B12 was not detected in the housefly Musca domestica, which apparently cannot interconvert propionate and succinate. In contrast, the termite Zootermopsis angusticollis readily interconverts succinate and methylmalonate, and contains high amounts of vitamin B12 (940 pg/mg dry tissue), as do four other species of termites. Experiments involving selective elimination of either gut tract protozoa or bacteria in Coptotermes formosanus indicate that intestinal bacteria are the major source of vitamin B12 in this termite. The other insect species examined have undetectable to moderate amounts of vitamin B12.


Now look at the following Youtube video of a silverback gorilla ripping open a termite nest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwL0Gef8gsc

That answers your question Pstarr!
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Unread postby Ibon » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 16:37:26

Yonnipun wrote:
There are so many diets possible for humans being omnivores. Little doubt that the healthiest diet for humans would be largely vegetarian with lots of nuts and fruit, greens and a modest amount of animal protein.


I would not be so sure about it. What fits to one person could be completely wrong for the other one. For example when I eat just one banana my blood sugar goes through the roof shortly after consuming it. I try to eat as low carb as possible.


You are right. There are so many diets possible for humans and so many genetic variations among humans that there is alot of optimization of diet possible based on ones genetics and also environment. If you are not raised drinking milk and dairy and suddenly drink a glass of milk you will puke!
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 16:50:55

So Ibon, the gorillas are omnivores, insectarians. Lots of folks eat witchetty grubs
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:06:15

pstarr wrote:So Ibon, the gorillas are omnivores, insectarians. Lots of folks eat witchetty grubs


Aside from a small intake of invertebrates, namely termites and some grubs, gorillas are almost exclusively vegetarian.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:33:31

Image
Perhaps the B12 requirment is low because gorillas sedentary nature. We would need to eat a lot of the delicacies.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:38:34

Luperon, DR

The 1%ers are at it again, destroying the planet.

CE1048EF-2F32-4831-9286-7FDB658A30EC.jpeg
CE1048EF-2F32-4831-9286-7FDB658A30EC.jpeg (172.89 KiB) Viewed 1489 times
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:39:12

pstarr wrote:Image
Perhaps the B12 requirment is low because gorillas sedentary nature. We would need to eat a lot of the delicacies.


Arthropods, just like jumbo shrimp which western culture accepts. When I lived in Thailand at first I had the western bias that only poor people eat grubs. And then once we hosted a very wealthy thai family from Bangkok at the resort where I worked and the mango trees had an infestation of large scarab beetles. The family got all excited shook the branches with long bamboo and collected the beetles as they fell and quickly blanched them, removed head, wings and thorax and stir fried the juicy abdomens with garlic and kafir lime.

In many cultures it is not the poor and desperate only who eat arthropods but the wealthy as well.

Should I start a thread " EATING ARTHROPODS WILL THE SAVE THE PLANET" ????????????

Nevermind :)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 17:51:07

You should start that thread. These food choices are becoming trendy all around the world. Folks are getting wise to reality and good eats. Even here in food-adverse US
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Thanks in part to Andrew Zimmern
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 21:14:43

I probably eat too much tuna, salmon, and swordfish. It just tastes GOOD. I also like shrimp and prawns, the arthropods you mentioned. This past year the scallop fishery on Nantucket recovered somewhat after being shut down the year before. The season was short, but I had Nantucket Bay Scallops four times in 10 days. Plus quahog chowder (the huge clams). A few mussels as well.

Here on the West Coast we eat the predator fish I mentioned, plus the larger sea scallops and several sizes of shrimp. But farmed salmon is found at Costco, and we buy a lot of it. Due to diet it has very low mercury levels, which can be a problem with wild caught fish on both coasts.

Grass fed beef is available, but it's almost 20 bucks a pound. Special occasions only, I buy a lot of the organic beef which is a grain-fed product on most visits. Sometimes I spring for organic buffalo which is about ten bucks a pound - but I hate giving Ted Turner money, and he owns most of the US buffalo herds.

Bugs, not so much. I have had escargot which is actually a lot like shrimp. Not a favorite, though.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 21:26:53

Thanks Ibon and KJ for acknowledging that most of us would be healthier with less meat in our diet. That's really all I'm saying, so I guess we all agree now and can sing kumbaya together!? :-D :-D

I would just add that, according to all the best and the latest research, it would also be better for the planet, other things being equal:

Your Food Choices Can Have a Big Climate Impact, So Be Picky, New Study Says


A sweeping study of the food chain, from farm to table, singles out choices that can cut greenhouse gas emissions. The biggest impact: switch to a plant-based diet.



The researchers found that shifting from current diets to a diet without animal products would cut greenhouse gas emissions by nearly half, or about 6.6 billion metric tons. In the U.S., shifting to a plant-based diet would cut emissions by 620 million metric tons, or about 61 percent of the country's emissions from food...


https://insideclimatenews.org/news/3105 ... ming-study
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