[Lore]

The mass hysteria for owning and carrying a concealed weapon where you typically shouldn't just escalates the chances of bringing a bullet to you. If you're military then you know the rule about always taking the fight to the fire. I don't think little girls untrained in dangerous situations would be safe to be close to.

[Cog]

You take away the reasons for people buying guns - primarily the power of the federal government and the need for the very poor to protect there rights and I suspect gun ownership would go down on its own.

The poor are going to protect their rights by redistributing my income to themselves? No thanks. We have thrown more money at the poor than any country on the planet. To no effect apparently.

[Lore]

You take away the reasons for people buying guns - primarily the power of the federal government and the need for the very poor to protect there rights and I suspect gun ownership would go down on its own.

You see for some people there will always be a reason to exert maximum hurt to get what they want. Killing in the name of Jesus isn't far off.

[Cog]

The mass hysteria for owning and carrying a concealed weapon where you typically shouldn't just escalates the chances of bringing a bullet to you. If you're military then you know the rule about always taking the fight to the fire. I don't think little girls untrained in dangerous situations would be safe to be close to.

How many people do you know personally who conceal carry? Not from news media but have sat down with and talked about it? You have no idea of the level of training that people undertake to make themselves not only safe but effective. Conceal carry instructors know very well that women make the best students in their classes. Because they listen and don't bring pre-conceived notions into the classroom with them.

Unless you believe the mere fact that I carry makes me dangerous in some way to you.

[Tikib]

You take away the reasons for people buying guns - primarily the power of the federal government and the need for the very poor to protect there rights and I suspect gun ownership would go down on its own.

The poor are going to protect their rights by redistributing my income to themselves? No thanks. We have thrown more money at the poor than any country on the planet. To no effect apparently.

Currently lots of poor people in America join the military in order to pay there way, this teaches them that force is the way to get by. If you massively reduced the size of your army and instead offered them some sort of life-long minimum income on the condition that they stayed out of trouble, crime would go down in America dramatically.

[Lore]

You take away the reasons for people buying guns - primarily the power of the federal government and the need for the very poor to protect there rights and I suspect gun ownership would go down on its own.

The poor are going to protect their rights by redistributing my income to themselves? No thanks. We have thrown more money at the poor than any country on the planet. To no effect apparently.

Currently lots of poor people in America join the military in order to pay there way, this teaches them that force is the way to get by. If you massively reduced the size of your army and instead offered them some sort of life-long minimum income on the condition that they stayed out of trouble, crime would go down in America dramatically.

Actually combat vets have more respect for the gun then most of the NRA yahoos. Especially the leadership and the Pols they control.

[Tikib]

So you don't think the gang members are in anyway infleunced by your warrior culture?

[Cog]

You guys should really take a conceal carry class. You really have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the use of force. It is hammered into you continually that you absolutely have to be in fear of imminent death or grave injury before you draw your gun. Nothing I learned as a military officer comes into play as a civilian gun owner.

All I'm hearing here are more mis-information being conveyed about gun owners as presented by the liberal media. Sad you guys don't do your research on the matter.

[Cog]

So you don't think the gang members are in anyway infleunced by your warrior culture?

I think gang members are influenced by not having a father, not having any moral structure, and who believe robbing people or slinging dope is the way to prosperity. And I have no idea what warrior culture you are referring to.

[Lore]

You guys should really take a conceal carry class. You really have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the use of force. It is hammered into you continually that you absolutely have to be in fear of imminent death or grave injury before you draw your gun. Nothing I learned as a military officer comes into play as a civilian gun owner.

All I'm hearing here are more mis-information being conveyed about gun owners as presented by the liberal media. Sad you guys don't do your research on the matter.

I have and more.

[Tikib]

Look Cog I come from a culture that doesn't have much gun violence, I am therefore trying to look for solutions in my culture to the problems in your culture. If you have better solutions thats fine but the way your currently doing things doesn't work.

[Cog]

Look Cog I come from a culture that doesn't have much gun violence, I am therefore trying to look for solutions in my culture to the problems in your culture. If you have better solutions thats fine but the way your currently doing things doesn't work.

You can not possibly translate your culture into US culture. The US experience is unique. Stick to what you know and let Americans worry about whatever needs fixing.

What isn't working about it? Violence of all types has been going down over the last ten years, even with a growing population. Sounds like whatever is working is working just fine.

Check it out for yourself

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

[Tikib]

Yea your gradually becoming more socially developed, you will catch up with us eventually.

[onlooker]

Maybe Cog that is because people are too afraid to engage in any type of physical confrontation thinking that it could easily lead to losing your life in the Wild West that is currently the US. So I guess we all like living in perpetual fear uh?

[Cog]

Maybe Cog that is because people are too afraid to engage in any type of physical confrontation thinking that it could easily lead to losing your life in the Wild West that is currently the US. So I guess we all like living in perpetual fear uh?

You almost sound like you are saying that more guns and conceal carry are making the USA safer. Be careful with that type of talk or you will lose your progressive credentials. While correlation does not equal causation, the drop in violent crime does coincide with the increase in the number of states adopting shall issue conceal carry over the last ten years.

As far as the Wild West goes, you are going to find that conceal carry permit holders are statistically far less likely than the general population to commit crimes of any sort.

[Apneaman]

Cog, how many atmospheric chemists and physicists have you sat down with and talked to instead of just getting your information about AGW from Rush Limbaugh and the rest of the rightwing media tards?


Cocks not glocks: Dildos to replace guns at UT-Austin campus carry protest

http://www.mysanantonio.com/local/educa ... =fb-mobile

[Apneaman]

A retard American pandering for retard votes.



Ben Carson Suggests Holocaust Would Have Been Less Likely if Jews Were Armed



http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-cars ... d=34349693

[Cog]

Prevented the Holocaust, most certainly not. But they certainly could have made it painful and costly for the Nazi's to execute it. I refer you to what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn said in his writings about resisting those who want to imprison you. Coming from a man who spent years in the Soviet gulags. There was times that fighting, even when the cause is hopeless, is preferable to being slaughtered like sheep.

“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

[hvacman]

This is an interesting topic. Very early in the discussion, Switzerland was raised as a outlier nation with high gun ownership, but low murder rates. It really wasn't followed through, though, with digging into the whys. I'd like to re-open that discussion. First a summary of Switzerland. Universal conscription. Lifetime membership in the "militia". Lifetime ownership of military firearms. Huge hunting tradition. No permit required for single-shot bolt-action rifles. Switzerland, surrounded by the Axis, was able to remain neutral in WWII due to both terrain and the "porcupine" principle. Every citizen is a barbed quill.

Let's look at statistics for the gun and murder situation in Switzerland and compare it to the US:

Per Wikipedia, here are the gun-owning statistics for Switzerland:

Number of guns in circulation

In some 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles (fully automatic, or "selective fire") stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 models. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million.[citation needed]

In 2005 over 10% of households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the US.[5] According to current estimations of guns per 100 residents is about 25,[6] which is, for example, lower than Germany, France, or Austria.

And their murder rate:

n 2014 there were 173 attempted and completed homicides, of which 18 involved firearms (10.4%). 41 of them were completed, therefore Switzerland had a murder rate of 0.49 per 100,000 population, the lowest raw figure and lowest rate for 33 years, since the start of the nationwide coordinated collection of statistical data, despite a strong growth of inhabitants (from 6.4 million to 8.1 million, +27%) over the same period.[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

The US murder rate, per FBI statistics:

There were 4.5 murders per 100,000 people. The murder rate fell 5.1 percent in 2013 compared with the 2012 rate. The murder rate was down from the rates in 2009 (10.5 percent) and 2004 (18.3 percent). (See Tables 1 and 1A.)

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/violent-crime/murder-topic-page/murdermain_final

Though Switzerland has a little lower household gun-ownership percentage than the US (29% vs 43%), and a surprisingly-large percentage own handguns, it has about one-tenth of the murder rate. Why? It apparently isn't the prevalence of guns.

And the special argument for banning privately-owned hand guns in the US - that they aren't for hunting, so why own one - seems to go out the door in Switzerland, where 10% of households have one (vs 18% in the US), but again, the murder rate is so much lower there.

Could it be, as Cog pointed out, that military training and responsible fire-arm ownership go hand-in-hand?

The "draft" is and always has been controversial in the US. There are a lot of reasons to debate conscription - one aspect of conscription goes very much against the individual freedom concept inherent in America. But the Swiss model for national defense with both universal conscription and life-long ownership of military-grade firearms by many private citizens also offers an inherent deterrent both to threats from outside AND from an over-reaching internal government. Could this be something we consider here in the US, given our propensity for owning firearms anyway?

I'm curious about other forum members' thoughts. And are there any Swiss citizens out there who could perhaps give us an insider's perspective of the Swiss and guns?

[Cog]

I would not necessarily correlate military service with being safe with guns. Many non-veteran civilians handle guns everyday in a responsible and safe way. Usually by being trained by their parents or by civilian safety instructors.

I would generally oppose conscription unless it was a national emergency and only for the length of that emergency.

The part where military training does help the average civilian is understanding how a conventional military operates and the best way to defeat it using unconventional methods. The US has millions of veterans whose store of knowledge ranges from nuclear weapons employment, to fixing Humvees, to fixing chow for hundreds of people. Very useful skill sets to have when fighting either a domestic or foreign tyranny.