[dohboi]

I heard an interesting comparison the other day--

Judas Iscariot and Satan are very important figures in the history and theology of Christianity.

But it would be...odd and jarring for most X's if they walked into church one day and found there to be large statues erected to each. In fact, they would probably demand that they be torn down, if they didn't start the process immediately themselves!

This is pretty much the experience that Blacks and many of the rest of us have seeing monuments erected to those who chose to try to violently destroy the United States of America (among others).

We're not trying to deny history, just saying we shouldn't exalt the worst figures in our history. If we do exalt them, it speaks volumes about our own values and morals.

[jedrider]

More than just history, they are symbols. A society does choose which symbols it wishes to glorify.

[Ibon]

A society does choose which symbols it wishes to glorify.

I wonder how many people realize that the fake tribalism in the USA is actually using symbols as a distraction so that both sides avoid confronting real physical reform issues to improve the commons.

Symbols used as bait to keep us divided.

Round Up, GMO, Abortion, BLM, climate change, illegal immigrant, carbon footprint, face masks, Jesus Christ, LGBT,AK47, 1st amendment, 2nd amendment, organic, McMansion, thug, southern baptist, red neck, liberal, etc. etc.

There are literally thousands of words that act as symbols or buzzwords that immediately elicit a tribal response, a locking in of an ideological position upon hearing them spoken or written down.

Dumbed down and corralled into our respective tribal alliances we are just as manipulated as cigarette smokers were when the tobacco industry denatured tobacco and then precisely added the nicotine back into the final product at just the right dose to keep their users addicted.

I find something darkly ironical about all the emphasis on old stone statues as symbols that need to be torn down when the vast majority, regardless of their tribal alliance, remain clueless as to the much more powerful digital symbols on all media fronts that are functioning much more effectively as sheep dogs corralling us into our respective camps. The conduit of that is all digital, nothing organic, no face to face sitting down with our brothers and sisters and looking for common ground.

Once you erode the organic sense of community and alienate folks into their private digital worlds, you got them by the balls as they are so pathetically and easily manipulated.

Here is some good humor that might break the spell for just a moment, regardless of which side of the dumbed down tribe you find yourself in alliance with.

[Newfie]

Ibon,

Great post. We are awash in this stuff.

[Plantagenet]

A society does choose which symbols it wishes to glorify.

Our society isn't monolithic----it is diverse.

Different segments of our segment at different times relate to different symbols.

What is new now is that we have a segment of our society-----BLM and the Ds on the left-------who are intolerant of American diversity and are intolerant of some symbols and are set on removing and/or destroying those symbols that it disapproves of.




----------------------------------------------------------------------

....fake tribalism......

I don't think its fake. The US is a very diverse country filled with a wide variety people and groups who often don't have much in common and in some cases actually hate each other.

I find something darkly ironical about all the emphasis on old stone statues as symbols that need to be torn down when the vast majority, regardless of their tribal alliance, remain clueless as to the much more powerful digital symbols on all media fronts that are functioning much more effectively as sheep dogs corralling us into our respective camps. The conduit of that is all digital, nothing organic, no face to face sitting down with our brothers and sisters and looking for common ground.

In some cases there is no common ground. Take Thomas Jefferson.......was he a slave-holder who should be cancelled and have his monument in DC torn because it is a "symbol" of something that BLM and the leftist Ds disapprove of? Or is Thomas Jefferson the brilliant genius who wrote the declaration of Independence and infused the American experiment with ideas of freedom of thought and freedom of religion and opposition to government coercion in all forms.

BLM and the leftist Ds will never accept that Jefferson is an American hero and perhaps the most important of the founding fathers. They don't care.....in their minds that is all insignificant next to the fact that he was a slave-holder.

Thats why we need ideas like TOLERANCE and RESPECT FOR OTHERS and FREEDOM OF THOUGHT in our society......because we have a diverse society where everyone isn't going to agree with everyone else. There can never be common ground between groups with radically different views....but there can be tolerance and mutual respect.

Unfortunately, the leftist loons tearing down statues and destroying symbols are also destroying the idea of toleration for other viewpoints.

And now we've got the pro atheletes who are so intolerant of others they have to publicly kneel or squat or turn their back or stay in the locker room during the moment of unity when everyone sings the national anthem together to show respect for our country and our soldiers......and then say they want a moment of unity. Well, we already had a moment of unity....it was when everyone sang the national anthem together and they are trashing that moment of unity.

I'm afraid the dumbing down of our country has reached the point where many people actually are manifestly dumb. People don't seem to understand anymore that the US is a diverse country.....and that means not only diversity of race but also diversity of thought and history and belief.........and our diverse country works best when people stop pretending that there is some monolithic "society" out there and instead re-learn that our country is very diverse and all have to have tolerance for others and their beliefs.

Cheers!

[Subjectivist]

Protestant churches do not have statuary as it violates the 10 commandments to do so. Wouldn't matter if it were a statue of John the Baptist or Judas Iscariot, the same commandment applies equally to all.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[dohboi]

Most of them have crosses all over the place tho (except Quakers and maybe Unitarians) which always seemed a bit like idle worship to me. And the one I grew up with certainly had (very Caucasian looking) pictures of Jesus all over the place.

But again, you don't see big hexagrams or pictures of the devil all over churches, either, so my argument holds for them, too

(So I'm guessing that if someone objected to a statue of the devil being erected in a church, P would call them a 'leftist loon' )

[Plantagenet]

I'm guessing that if someone objected to a statue of the devil being erected in a church, P would call them a 'leftist loon'

You have the strangest ideas, Doh.

First of all lets agree that there are no statues of Satan in Christian churches.

The People who want to worship statues of the devil in their churches are called SATANISTS.

And yes, there actually are Satanist churches and yes they have statues of Satan in there.

And, believe it or not under our constitution and Bill of Rights they are entitled to worship as they please.

Our only concern should be to see that they are left along to be free to worship as they please. IMHO Your fantasy about people objecting to statues of Satan in Satanist churches is very intolerant and very un-American. Please go back and re-read the bill of rights and then join me in protecting the Satanists' freedom of religion.


Yes, Doh, there are indeed people called Satanists who worship Satan and have statues of Satan in their churches. And contrary to your fantasy, they have a right to put up such statues and worship them because under our Constitution Satanists and every other kind of religious group are free to worship as they please.

Let me summarize by saying I think your suggestion in multiple posts above that because it would be OK to tear down statues of Satan then its OK to tear down other statues is clearly and totally wrong. In fact, statues of Satan in Satanist churches are PROTECTED by our Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In fact, if a group of Satanists wants to build a giant public statue of Satan...or build an amusement part called "Satanland" for their believers to visit, its quite OK with me.

I believe in tolerance and respect when it comes to other people and their beliefs, culture, and history. Maybe its because I've travelled so much and seen so many weird and and strange historical monuments and symbols and statues, but I like cultural diversity. I like seeing quirky and strange things.

I actually visited the evil giant statues of the Confederate heroes in Richmond back before they were torn down and removed, and I found it all very curious and sad and strange and wrong-headed and a bit laughable. But I never would have dreamed of tearing it down and destroying that piece of history just because I didn't support or approve of the people those statues were made to honor.

So I think the intolerance being displayed by BLM and leftist adherents is damging our culture and leading to violence. I think we need MORE tolerance.....not less. I think we need MORE diversity in our views and tolerance for those different views....not less.

Cheers!

[Ibon]

I don't think its fake.

I know you dont have a Netflix account so find a friend who does and go watch that new documentary Social Dilemma and then come back here and let us all know if you still think that tribalism isn't fake...

At the very least you will get to spend an evening with a real live organic human being

[asg70]

The monument issue is ultimately a surface-level distraction. I don't deny that it triggers a lot of people to see civil war monuments but that seems to be a far cry from the more immediate concerns of police brutality, etc... Society is lazy in the sense that it seeks some immediate gratification. Tearing down a monument or throwing a molotov cocktail into a police station is easy but in the long-run doesn't accomplish jack shit.

[asg70]

if a group of Satanists wants to build a giant public statue of Satan...or build an amusement part[sic] called "Satanland" for their believers to visit, its[sic] quite OK with me.

But what if they wanted to erect a statue of Obama?

[dohboi]

Good one, asg

And P doesn't even seem to realize that he is making my point, perfectly

The only appropriate place to put up a statue of Satan would be in a Satanist 'church' (if there even really is such a thing).

The only appropriate places to put up statues of the 'heroes' of the Confederacy would be...the Confederacy.

But there IS no Confederacy, 'cause they lost. So there really is no appropriate place to erect these statues in the US.

Thanks for making my point so clearly and forcefully for me, P. I couldn't have done it better myself!

[Plantagenet]

The only appropriate place to put up a statue of Satan would be in a Satanist 'church' (if there even really is such a thing).

Oh ye of little faith.

The only appropriate places to put up statues of the 'heroes' of the Confederacy would be...the Confederacy.

But there IS no Confederacy, 'cause they lost. So there really is no appropriate place to erect these statues in the US.

Thats a very ignorant idea.

What you are missing is that the Confederacy is part of US History.

Your bizarre idea that all symbols or statues associated with the Confederacy must be removed "cause they lost" is really a very ignorant and uncultured idea.

The US also defeated Great Britain and Mexico in wars.......should every statue of someone British or Mexican be destroyed "cause they lost" as you put it?

The US defeated a whole series of Indian nations in wars.....should every statue of an Indian chief be destroyed "cause they lost" as you put it?

What you are missing is that the Civil War and the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812 and Mexican American war and the Texas War of Independence and the various American-Indian wars are all part of US history. If we followed your ignorant plan and destroyed every statue associated with the Confederacy, Great Britain, Mexico, and all the Indian nations/tribes, we would be destroying an important part of our own historical heritage and part of our own artistic legacy.


Yoo-hoo. Dohboi.....if you're so insistent that you have to destroy Confederate statues "because they lost" then here's another category of statue you can start destroying......the Indians lost too, you know so you'd better pull down their statues too, or forever be labelled a hypocrite.

Cheers!

[dohboi]

Your arguments keep on supporting mine, so thanks.

Yes, Confederate leaders are part of US history just like Satan is part of most Christian theology. But we don't erect pictures or statues of Satan in Christian churches, and for the same reason we shouldn't erect statues of figures who came close to destroying the Union prominently in the public space of the US.

So now we're back to where we were...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghj5V5cUo1s

[Plantagenet]

Confederate leaders are part of US history just like Satan is part of most Christian theology. But we don't erect pictures or statues of Satan in Christian churches, and for the same reason we shouldn't erect statues of figures who came close to destroying the Union prominently in the public space of the US.

You are right that Christians don't put up statues of Satan in Christian churches. Bonus points to you for your powers of observation.

However, I have to subtract those bonus points because you haven't noticed that in fact "we" have indeed put statues of confederates in many prominent and not so prominent places around the U.S.

As far as I know there are confederates represented in town squares and in parks. There are confederates in cemeteries. There are confederates in the statuary hall of Congress. And there are even Confederates in national parks and other federal lands....have you ever been to Gettysburg? There are veritable PHALANXES of confederate soldiers representing the various state contributions to the Confederate Army of VIrginia on our federal lands.


One of many large statues of groups of Confederates at Gettysburg National Park.....how long until the ignorant haters try to smash these?

The reason for this is that there once was a civil war in the US, and the Confederates are an important part of that US history.

It actually isn't unusual in civilized countries for controversial monuments to exist. In Berlin there is a monument of a Soviet tank installed by the Soviet Red Army to celebrate their victory over the Germans. Today the germans preserve that Soviet monument as part of their own history. In Helsinkin Finland there is are statues and monuments to the Czars and Russians who conquered and subjugated them....and the Finns preserve these statues as monuments to their own history. And so on....in country after country.

But here in the US we have leftist loons and other people who hate American and don't understand American history and so they want to destroy that history.

Sorry, but I think its dumb, short-sighted and even uncivilized to destroy historical monuments and art. Once things are destroyed they are gone. Its like driving a species to extinction....you'd think any one with a brain could see that is wrong. But I know that when people are extremely uneducated and filled with rage and hate....like the ancient barbarians who destroyed everything Roman they could find.....or like the modern Islamic fanatics who destroyed the giant Bhudda statues in Aghanistan.......these violent ignorant people want to smash and destroy and kill things. And now we've got the vandals and thieves and looters and arsonists of BLM/antifa and now they are filled with rage and hate.....so filled with rage and irrational hatred and intellectual depravity that they actually demonstrate day after day at the hospital of two police shot from ambush and chant obscenities and chant that they want the police to die......when that kind of rage-filled craziness is on the loose, anything can happen.

Cheers!

[careinke]

if a group of Satanists wants to build a giant public statue of Satan...or build an amusement part[sic] called "Satanland" for their believers to visit, its[sic] quite OK with me.

But what if they wanted to erect a statue of Obama?

I'd be fine with that. Maybe one with his well deserved Peace Prize.

How about Donald Trump for his two, soon to be three nominations?

[dohboi]

This has gotten to the level of pigeon chess, so I'll let it go for now, P having shat all over the chess board and flown up to the trees to declare his victory.

[asg70]

Dohboi / Evilgenius 2020!

[asg70]

The only appropriate places to put up statues of the 'heroes'

Beyond Plant's trolling, the larger issue is there is no longer any shared concept of heroism. The very definition of heroism has been debased in our era of cynical post-modern nihilism. So there's no way for any sort of governmental entity to erect a statue without half the citizenry demonizing that figure. I mean, just because Robert E Lee and company make for easy targets doesn't mean some people won't find fault in Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, etc... In this climate it would be better not to erect ANY statues and to remove any and all existing ones, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I mean, I'm not in any way saying this to defend the confederate statues but I do see this as the start of a slippery slope of purity-testing. Since no historical figure has been perfect then there's always a way to object to honoring them if you set the bar high enough.

[dohboi]

asg, you are being subtle and insightful--not a quality frequently seen on these threads, and likely to go right over the heads of many