Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

If You're Not Listening to Chris Martenson...

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby baha » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 07:04:59

My attitude is:
I am at the tail end of the baby boomers. I'm hoping by the time I really need help, all the ones before me, like MD, who had no choice but to lay down and die on the steps of the hospital will have changed the system.

Or I will go die there too. Or maybe under the big tree out front:)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.
I will see your google and raise you an infinity!

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
User avatar
baha
Solar Advocate
Solar Advocate
 
Posts: 1041
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 02:00:00
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 08:23:54

The thing that gets me is that we could have really great cradle to grave single payer coverage for less than we spend now.

It doesn't have to be this way.

We just have a broken POLITICAL system that can't act effectively in the interests of the citizens.

Let's see what Trump can accomplish, if anything.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10942
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby evilgenius » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 11:53:54

There's a problem getting onto everyone's back about their lifestyles. There is absolutely no focus on how to more properly get people to order their lives. The US has a raging narcotic addiction problem right now. If you took the narcotics away you wouldn't take away the reasons why so many people are addicted. People act out in the absence of solutions to the root of their problems. We don't have a mental health focus that is intended to be anything like universal.

I've spoken about repentance in some other places on this site. Taking away the religious aspects of that, what it means is getting to the point of being honest about the forces that have gone into making a person up and dealing with them in a beneficial manner. I don't think you can do that without a general mental health focus. To get onto the rails people need to know where it was, probably childhood, they got off of them. If they never were on the rails they need to know how they can change in a way that will work to get onto them. Currently we use trial and error, both personally and publicly, to figure out how to get onto the rails. That's the same thing we've used for all of history, and it doesn't promise to get us any farther than where we are right now.

Yeah, that's right, this is bigger than healthcare. It also addresses issues such as the prevalence of domestic violence in the country. You know, it's a funny thing, if you teach men how to communicate they improve. If you can get people to accept that not everything is a competition, they can be more civil toward each other. Staying on the rails, in other words, is just as hard as getting onto them in the first place. And it will cost either money, or the next generation.

There are aspects of a reasonable healthcare system that will always be expensive. There are other aspects that are only cost prohibitive initially. Then there are many unknown costs, as we experiment to discover what will work that we will have to make decisions about as we go along. The cost is as much to do with gathering information as paying money. It will affect us in the way that we perceive how we look at costs, how the cost of investments currently outweigh the potential benefits by some factor. It's not logical to separate the costs out and wail and moan over them when they also come with benefits. The argument should be about whether the benefits outweigh the costs, not whether the costs are simply there and therefore ought to be whittled down. I know that sounds like I'm not for cost control. I am for cost control, but I think we lose sight of what we could have when paying taxes period is our sole reason for not having it over whether what we pay gives us a return greater than what we put in.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 13:52:02

Evil,

Part of the problem is that once folks learn bad habits, become addicted to drugs, or are forced into a really poor lifestyle it's damned difficult to help them back to health. The older you are the harder it is.

I think it's pretty obvious that the USA and many third world countries are breeding grounds for highly disfunctional people who have a vanishingly small chance of recovery.

Additionally we have a gross super abubdence of humanity. Much of it under educated and not well able to cope with a modern world other than acting as "consumers."

Wherein lies the solution?
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10942
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Paulo1 » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 16:26:01

hey guys, I apologize for my rant yesterday.

A few things: There is most certainly price discovery in the Canadian system. In my Province it is 455 pages long and covers everything the Govt. pays for. For shits and giggles I zereoed in on Heart Surgery and highlighted a couple of things. Here they are.

Shoot it didn't fit on the page.. okay, here is one
Repairing Ruptured Thoracic aneuyrism.....$1798.96

I did find this however: The mean +/- SEM cost of AAA repair was dollars 15 852 +/- dollars 790 in Canada compared with US dollars 23299 +/- US dollars 1410 in the United States.
CONCLUSIONS:

The cost of AAA repair is substantially higher in the United States compared with Canada, despite shorter lengths of stay and similar clinical outcomes. The difference in total treatment costs between Canadian and American hospitals was partially attributable to differences in direct costs, but was largely due to differences in overhead costs.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14609787

The Canadian system is paid for with tax dollars, and with varied Provincial premiums. The sytem is triaged. People with less serious ailments are placed behind those who have serious needs. For example, I developed a cancer at age 56. After diagnosis my surgery was in 1 week. After a 5 year surveillance program I have been basically declared cancer free and have no more follow-up appointments.
I have yet to receive a bill, and that includes 8-10 ct scans, a few chest X-rays, and an ultra sound, + surgery. I have had 15 doctor consultations?

I paid for this in higher income taxes, and if I buy a bottle of spiced rum it costs 2X what I would pay in US. No probelmo. The one thing that a huge majority of Canadians are most proud of is their health system. The country would revolt if it was screwed with by politicians beyond tinkering and minor meddling. Our military, not so much. Our rural people all have guns, anyway :-)

We aren't to crazy about global hegemony and subjugating foreign countries for the MIC and elites, though. Funny, there is always trillions of dollars for the US military but God forbid there is actually affordable health care. hell, the Powers have you guys fighting over the crumbs while the Buffets et al suck up billions.

Get the pitchforks out and tear 'em a new one.
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 14:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 19:49:07

I have some Canadian relatives who consider themselves hard core Conservatives. Over some drinks one night I explained in the USA they would be sissy Liberals. My Wife and I explained our Heath care system and insurance payments. They were dumbfounded and taken aback at what we described. And we didn't go overboard. Just described our own personal experiences and costs.

Made me think twice about how lucky they are.

Not the first time I've had similar conversations with Canadian friends.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10942
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 21:25:13

Newfie wrote:I have some Canadian relatives who consider themselves hard core Conservatives. Over some drinks one night I explained in the USA they would be sissy Liberals. My Wife and I explained our Heath care system and insurance payments. They were dumbfounded and taken aback at what we described. And we didn't go overboard. Just described our own personal experiences and costs.

Made me think twice about how lucky they are.

Not the first time I've had similar conversations with Canadian friends.

Then why do I get the impression you believe this stupid sh#tf@ck of a country can be saved?
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27388
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 22:23:47

I don't. I just have irrepressible hope for some stupid reason.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10942
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 16 Jan 2017, 22:33:52

Newfie wrote:I don't. I just have irrepressible hope for some stupid reason.

Newfie, stuff you have implied here suggests you believe you are in a safe place. Me to. I believe I am in a safe place. Isn't that enough? Why the compulsion to help those who won't help themselves?

I am done doing nice things for idiots.
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27388
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 17 Jan 2017, 08:36:34

I'm in the SAFEST place I can imagine. But I'm far from considering it safe. I don't think there are truly safe places, just relative danger. The systems are too complex and chaotic to model in any reasonable way. Hell, just look at the Trump election.

I get where you are coming from on protecting idiots. Yet many good honest people will suffer as well.

There are all kinds of cumumdrums and conflicts in any viable future scenario. It's just not possible to construct a logical and cohesive view of the future that also recognizes our human emotional needs. We need to learn to tolerate this situation while retaining some of our emotional identity. We all approach that in different ways. But it necessarily does lead to confusing and incongruous statements and positions.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10942
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Cog » Tue 17 Jan 2017, 08:48:00

We shall see how it plays out but you can not get rid of the individual mandate to purchase health care coverage, without getting rid of the mandate of health insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions. Simply won't work.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10742
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 17 Jan 2017, 14:15:31

You have to ask yourselves what will it take for the public to truly bend government to the will of the people and break the current corporate influence that has in the case of healthcare prevented Obamacare from ever achieving even modest goals. This question is at the heart of health care reform or any other negative trend that has affected the middle class as we have seen the rise of corporate influence in government.

The insurance companies and drug companies and the inflated price of medical care set by the health care providers together all had their fingers in the pie to keep any real reform from happening which is why Obamacare was a watered down policy that accomplished very little.

Where is the lobby that really defends the interest of the middle class. It is supposed to be in your public officials you vote for free of any influence by corporate interests. This is a myth and everyone knows it but we all remain complacent and willing to accept this as the new status quo.

After a year or two of Trump the same voters on the Republican side who expected him to cut through this influence will join the democrats who became disillusioned with Obama when they saw the results of Obamacare and the corporate interests that destroyed it.

Can real reform ever really happen. What will it take?
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6533
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Cog » Tue 17 Jan 2017, 15:58:55

Unless you address costs, TrumpCare will end up exactly where ObamaCare did.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10742
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 17 Jan 2017, 16:54:24

Cog wrote:Unless you address costs, TrumpCare will end up exactly where ObamaCare did.


That's correct. The costs of medical procedures, drugs and insurance is at the end controlled by the industries that lobby to defend their profits. There is a giant cartel at play here that are shafting the American consumer. Anyone who has lived in foreign countries and has compared the costs knows this is the result of artificially inflated prices engineered by the industries who have an army of lobbyists in DC.

Trump will confront this same brick wall Obama did in trying to dismantle this cartel.

Trump would have to feel a rising tide of outrage from the public that would rival the force that lobbyists currently have. This requires an educated electorate.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6533
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 07:33:31

Paulo1 wrote:The point of this is that bad things can happen to good people. (Even you two idiots)

There is a solution. It is called single-payer. There are drawbacks, but basically the Canadian healthcare system provides better outcomes at about 60% of the cost of the US system.

When I was 30, and fit as hell (I might add), I developed a stomach ache. I blew it off because I did not have time to be sick. I was too busy working. Well, it turned out into a ruptured appendix and I developed peritonitis. Two operations later, and after a short stay in hospital I returned to work. If I had been a US citizen we would have lost our house. As a Canadian living with single-payer I did not receive a bill.

I have always been fit, and I have always been debt free. I am still fit and debt free retirng at age 57. This has nothing to do with the vagaries of contracting disease, or having an accident. Bad things can happen to good people. Maybe even you.

You folks would not state such idiotic things if you had had a child develop luekemia, or something else. What, would you say, "They asked for it"? Show some compassion and use your imagination before you post. Your smugness is showing.

World infested by commies and libtards is one which is heading to ruin.

"Single payer" system is also here in Poland.
For diabetic patients with diabetic feet all what they are offering are amputations for example.
But those who want to pay themselves will get a treatment allowing them to keep their feet.

Last year my wife was diagnosed with suspected ovarian tumor. These are rather bad news.
Single payer system offered 4 months waiting for CT scan.
So we have used out of pocket payer system and done it on demand.
Waiting time: 24 hours. Cost $200

Tumor proven to be benign fibroid, but large. Needed surgical removal.
Single payer system have offered 2,5 year long waiting list.
So we decided to pay ourselves.
Waiting time: 2 weeks, removal of tumor with sparing healthy part of womb.
This followed (during the same procedure) by cosmetic surgeon who reconnected broken ligaments (never done on single payer) and during procedure anti-scarring preparations were used (never done on single payer).
Recovery in privacy of separate room and 24hr a day nursing care for 3 days added as perks
Cost $1500
Effect: healthy wife.
Average monthly earnings in Poland are around $1000 take home money.

Single payer here is simply a fraud. You pay once in taxes and then you need to pay second time yourself regardless, unless you are happy with 30-50 years old, outdated procedures and long waiting lists.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5193
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 09:08:34

That's a bad situation. Sounds like you had the money, here's hoping it did not break you.

If I understand you correctly, in Poland the single payer treatments you describe are available to everyone.

Let's look at the USA BEFORE Obama care. Annual HOUSEHOLD income here is about $43,000, before taxes. So our per person average, take home, is probably a bit over $2,000.

So in the USA there are 4 classes.

Poor...get MediAID, GOVERNMENT sponsored insurance for the poor.
Over 65... get Medicare, GOVERNMENT sponsored insurance for the old.
Higher paid workers...get insurance through their employment.
Working poor, self employed, small company worker, high risk ...get squat.

ACA was attempting to provide insurance to those excluded by the previous system.

So it's not easy to compare Poland to the USA.

Some have tried to describe our old system as a heavy tax for moving yourself out of poverty. Once you cross a certain income threshold you loose Medicare without any alternative.

O care has serious problems, it is better than the previous system. Trump is in a good position. All he has to do is IMPROVE O care and he will seem a hero. Let's hope he does that.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10942
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 09:28:43

Newfie wrote:That's a bad situation. Sounds like you had the money, here's hoping it did not break you.

If I understand you correctly, in Poland the single payer treatments you describe are available to everyone.

Let's look at the USA BEFORE Obama care. Annual HOUSEHOLD income here is about $43,000, before taxes. So our per person average, take home, is probably a bit over $2,000.

So in the USA there are 4 classes.

Poor...get MediAID, GOVERNMENT sponsored insurance for the poor.
Over 65... get Medicare, GOVERNMENT sponsored insurance for the old.
Higher paid workers...get insurance through their employment.
Working poor, self employed, small company worker, high risk ...get squat.

ACA was attempting to provide insurance to those excluded by the previous system.

So it's not easy to compare Poland to the USA.

Some have tried to describe our old system as a heavy tax for moving yourself out of poverty. Once you cross a certain income threshold you loose Medicare without any alternative.

O care has serious problems, it is better than the previous system. Trump is in a good position. All he has to do is IMPROVE O care and he will seem a hero. Let's hope he does that.

You left out the part where the working poor not on medicaid show up at the ER and get treated for free and the costs are covered by the others through exorbitant prices. I have other rants as well but I agree with you that Trump need only improve on ACA to be counted a winner. I hope they start an open public debate about what to do to change it so we can see the bill before we vote on it. Of course the Dems will start out opposing every change savagely but if they persist in that too long they will brand themselves as the party of K street not the people.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 8925
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby Paulo1 » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 10:04:11

The Poland situation sounds pretty bad. However, you are still in transition and what is today is not necessarialy, forever.

The same for my American friends. I just want to point out that the American people should not be equated with the sins of their Govt. It takes a long time to change direction. I just hope it isn't the Titanic.

Seriously, all of our countries have beyond serious problems right now. It is called 'debt'. We can't have it all, folks. We have to prioritise/prioritize. Do you want to spend your last chance running up debt for medical corporations and weapons? Or healthcare for people? Maybe the answer is well-armed citizens and a great coast guard with just a respectable foreign fighting force. But if you have to maintain 200 foreign military bases, carrier fleets, global air power, all the civilian supports to make it happen, plus the MIC aquisitions graft industries, AND support the veterans and their families for the rest of their lives, then affordable health care ain't going to happen for common citizens. No country is that wealthy, especially in this time of shrinking circumstances. Economic well-being is not expanding; it is settling back to reality.

My country is also wasting its financial resources, big time. As my Dad always said, "We just don't have a money tree in the backyard". I'm just thankful our society provides reliable electrical energy distribution. Every morning when I switch on the lights or hear the 'fridge running I am thankful for it. For those of you who live in the boonies you know what I mean. take care.... stay healthy!!! :-D
Paulo1
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 14:50:35
Location: East Coast Vancouver Island

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 10:29:33

I agree,
It is difficult to compare Polish and American healthcare system.
Nevertheless proposing single payer systems (which here and there might work well and in other places are horrible nightmares) as solution for all ills (pun intended) is a bit misguided.

Rich countries might do better there and poorer ones are going to end up with horrible, bureaucratic systems riddled by corruption (like bribes here in Poland paid to doctors to get some "urgent referrals" for treatment due to "risk to life" etc) and other problems.
Btw, there are "islets of success" even in our single payer system, say transplants, however more mundane treatments like diabetes or cancer patient care are rather third worldish if patient cannot contribute directly nor pay a bribe.
There is also a "hunt for sympathetic doctor" as one of last resorts. Works well for many children and pretty women.

However our "Paid by Patient" private health care seems dirt cheap and is affordable to most.
This might have much to do with fact that our healthcare is *not* infested by insurance companies.
Peoples don't insure themselves due to an illusion of single payer and once they get sick family has sufficient resources to either bribe their way through single payer or pay privately out of pocket.
Mentality that "my insurance company will pay" is absent and this enforces realistic pricing from private healthcare providers.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5193
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Chris Martenson : Mad As Hell

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 02 Feb 2017, 11:12:44

Ibon wrote:
Cog wrote:Unless you address costs, TrumpCare will end up exactly where ObamaCare did.


That's correct. The costs of medical procedures, drugs and insurance is at the end controlled by the industries that lobby to defend their profits. There is a giant cartel at play here that are shafting the American consumer. Anyone who has lived in foreign countries and has compared the costs knows this is the result of artificially inflated prices engineered by the industries who have an army of lobbyists in DC.

Trump will confront this same brick wall Obama did in trying to dismantle this cartel.

Trump would have to feel a rising tide of outrage from the public that would rival the force that lobbyists currently have. This requires an educated electorate.


All you really need to do, for employer based care, is get rid of pre-tax contributions by employees and employers. Employers are incentivized under that scheme to give employees a "raise" in the form of more money contributed to the healthcare plan. Employees also consider a tacit raise that is swallowed up by higher premiums as a raise, again an easy and desirable way for employers to manage their plans in lieu of actual raises for which they have to pay matching taxes. It's the unreasonable fear of taxes, the rejection of (by ease of substitution) any pay increase should it involve them, that is the real bogeyman in this argument. The avoidance of taxes is at the root of high healthcare costs. Obviously, this also contributes to employee's lack of increase in real income over time as well. You cannot discount the micro-economic part of the equation. Personal and corporate greed are both involved in high healthcare costs. They both contribute to the outsized amount of money available to the system which causes an over statement of demand in dollar terms.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 34 guests