[theluckycountry]

Rather then spending billions to build a few high speed passenger links with doubtful profitability we should upgrade and improve the existing freight rail system to keep as much as the heavy freight off the highways which would surly return a profit.

Yes, quite. Your rail network is falling apart at the seams, another big derailment just occurred, link below. They are becoming as regular as school massacres it seems. It's a classic sign of the collapse of national fortunes and has happened in many 2nd world nations across the globe. All the great railways of the south american nations began falling into disrepair decades ago.

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Springfield ... wsrc%5Etfw

The problem is cost cutting on maintenance.

341 derailments in 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9cc4Et-3Ck

it's delusional to think this process can be reversed, it won't be, not across the board. In every nation suffering the decline the people always have the hope and expectation that things will turn around and they'll go back to the "Good ol days" But it never happens.

[Newfie]

I have been out of the loop for a decade now, longer with regard to freight.

First one needs to understand in the USA there are 2 regulatory powers, the FRA
for freight lines and commuter rail that came from freight (Amtrak, PATH, etc.) and FTA which governs all the rest including light rail and subways. FTA oversight is molded on the highway system. When lines cross state lines then a joint commission is formed (WAMATA - MD/DC/VA). As near as I can tell these state commissions are bureaucratic institutions with little to no expertise.


When I was working on FRA properties they had real teeth and were active. There were regular inspections and tough regulations with fines. What I recently read leads me to believe that there has been a sever drawback in oversight powers. For example the Ohio wreck; the hot journal was detected two “Hot Box Detectors” but the train was ordered to continue. It may be that the temperature was below the mandated level calling for inspection, I can not tell from reports. But were it above this nominal threshold then the train would have been required to stop for inspection. The way I am reading the reports is that the REQUIREMENT has been dropped and replaced with recommendations, starting with Obama and continued with Trump.

The FTA system is a complete joke, never had any teeth. I have more recent personal experience in this field. Anything good that happens is because someone in the agency was trying to do their job, not because of effectual oversight.

Here is a generous snippet from WIKI. The situation is actually far worse than is indicated in this article.

Oversight
Edit
The Tri-State Oversight Committee formerly oversaw WMATA, but had no regulatory authority. Metro's safety department usually was in charge of investigating incidents, but could not require other Metro agencies to implement its recommendations.[1] In October 2015, following several safety lapses, the Federal Transit Administration assumed oversight of WMATA with the authority to conduct inspections and impose sanctions.[84] The NTSB, which is charged with investigating every civil aviation accident and significant accidents in other modes of transportation, does not have the authority to set or enforce standards. This lack of authority has been scrutinized after NTSB recommended that WMATA take measures to increase crash worthiness of trains after collisions in 1996 and again in 2006.[85] WMATA did not take action on these recommendations, citing tax advantage leases and an eventual replacement around 2014.[86] NTSB, unable to compel action, classified the recommendation as, "Safety Recommendation R-06-2 Closed Unacceptable Action".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inciden ... gton_Metro


From news reports it sounds like the Greek tragedy was not because of poor maintenance so much as a total lack of process to guard against that kind of failure. It sounds like their procedures are very lax. I am suspicious of the title “Station Master”. I suspect it is a misleading translation. At least in any rail system I know of the Station Master would not in any way be capable of giving an order past a red light. That would come from a Dispatcher, and then there are very strict procedures to allow someone past a red signal. To “talk a train past”. When we hear of head to head wrecks in the USA it is generally because of an equipment failure, such as a faulty switch.

[theluckycountry]

As we move forward in time less and less resources are available to ensure safety and maintain these complex systems. Any government oversight will be largely ineffectual. The FDA is now simply a rubber stamp. Any pharmaceutical that wants to get a drug on the market simply bribes the officials on the board with lucrative jobs after the approval. It's well documented.

These trains need to make a profit on their loads or the company folds, but there are limits to what customers will pay, and the maintenance becomes more expensive over time, as does the diesel fuel to run them. Some systems are better left in the hands of government and the costs shared by the public purse. All Australian railways are publicly managed, the tracks, not always the trains. Most of our freight is now in corporate hands but at least the tracks are solid.

Again, there is no solution to this dilemma of decaying infrastructure. It was all built with oil and coal and most of it will not outlast the end of that age.

[Newfie]

Lucky,

Government management is no guarantee of safety or competence. Read my quote up above, the Washinto METRO is ignoring the TSB recommendations. No airline could do that.

For decades they have shown themselves to be incompetent in managing the technology of the system. But they, METRO managers think they are doing a grand job. They can not see their own failures. I spent a few years off lifesaving to improve that situation, with bonifde results, only to see them throw it away.

NOW they want to reinstate ATO (Automatic Train Operation) which they have never been able to manage before. I could fill reams.

Private industry by comparison needs to have insurance, and insurance is expensive, and wrecks raise insurance rates, which reduce profit. It does not Ave the satisfaction of passing a law, wich is unlikely to make anything better. But it is more effective.

In addition they will have to deal with a huge expense due to law sites. Yhese wrecks will cost them big bucks, and will have the full attention of the Directors.

It takes time but is more effective than interference from a bunch of lawyers turned politicians.

A quick example; freight railroads were getting killed with claims from auto manufacturers because brand new cars were being damaged in transit (vandalisium), insurance claims. The rail industry responded by developing new car carriers which kept the vandals away and by covering the autos with protective wraps.

For some reason the airline industry works to different standards and processes. And they seem to be doing better. So a alternative may be to put the railroads ad rail passenger traffic (including subways and light rail, etc.) under the same airline management system.

[theluckycountry]

For some reason the airline industry works to different standards and processes. And they seem to be doing better. So a alternative may be to put the railroads ad rail passenger traffic (including subways and light rail, etc.) under the same airline management system.

You are no doubt right about those metro lines there, here our railways are managed by the state governments with cooperation between them for trains that cross state lines. Vandalism on trains, is nothing sacred? I haven't heard of that here, I guess people are too busy, though graffiti is a big thing on freight cars left parked.

I sort of get the high airline safety standards, they are often global arrangements aren't they, and when a plane crashes it's a very big deal in peoples' minds. A train crash doesn't seem as dramatic, to me at least, so perhaps it was public pressure back in the early days? One thing I know is that when the rich are involved there is a completely different set of standards. I listened to a podcast last month where an Indian investigator was talking about how India's rural health system has gone backwards over the past decades but that they spent an inordinate amount of money during covid disinfecting planes (not trains).

He said it was because the wealthier people always travel by air. And when your talking wealthier you're talking politicians, their friends and family. Yes I know there are a lot on average income earners on plains flying in the west, but there is always a proportion of seats carrying corporate types and the wealthy, up in first class. These people must be protected, just in the same way that the suburbs they live in have a stronger police presence. It wouldn't surprise me at all newfie if one day they segregated the airlines into first-class flights and economy flights. We sort of have that now with all the private jets up there. Anyway, it's just a random thought.

People like Jim kunstler have been banging on forever about rebuilding the nations' railways for passenger travel but I always thought, Why? The lockdowns over the magic virus and the measures now being in introduced in the UK to prevent people from moving too far from their place of residence point to an obvious pattern to me. Keep the plebeians near their jobs, no need to have them traipsing all over the countryside. Communist Russia did this to good effect with their internal passports, China? Either way in a future of scarce resources people are going to have to give up the tourist mentality that we have been enjoying for 100 years. Why facilitate it by building a fantastic rail network.

I certainly have no crystal ball but you don't need one to see the general trends of the next 50 years. Whatever relies on oil or gas or coal today will be going going, gone tomorrow. And that includes most plane flights, most asphalt and concrete roads, and most expensive steel rail networks. We built those networks with cheap labor but also with cheap to produce steel and timber. Today the forests are as depleted as the ore bodies for the iron and concrete ties are not cheap either once you see how they are made. But I'm getting ahead of myself, the city north of me is building new rail lines hand over fist to service the emerging outer suburbs and has been for decades now. Having the Olympics there in 2032 helped this along I'm sure.

The Melbourne to Brisbane Inland Rail is an Australian Government project to upgrade and construct a 1,700km freight railway which will see express trains making the journey between Tottenham in Melbourne and Acacia Ridge in Brisbane in less than 24 hours once completed

Cross River Rail is a new 10.2 kilometre rail line from Dutton Park to Bowen Hills, which includes 5.9 kilometres of twin tunnels under the Brisbane River and CBD

A proposed rail project between the Gold Coast, Logan and Brisbane, is set to make train travel more efficient in time for the 2032 Brisbane Olympic Games. It will see 20 kilometres of new track and rail systems built between Kuraby and Beenleigh stations, increasing the corridor from two to four tracks, with modernised rail systems, station upgrades, and level crossing removals.

These are just a couple and others are on the books. For some reason they are providing fast passenger rail all over the place. It makes a lot of sense of course to reduce congestion etc and in the long run I believe it's cheaper than building and maintaining new freeways. I myself employ this system once or twice a year myself. 60km away is an electric rail service that goes straight down into the heart of the CBD in Brisbane. I drive across country to the station, board the train and get off just around the corner from my dental clinic. It' certainly quicker than driving into the city and avoids all the drama of the traffic. I hate traffic!