[Plantagenet]

This is now the Democrat Party.... espousing the destruction of the US border and ICE. Let the flood of illegals begin

This isn't about "human rights"...this is about the Ds putting their selfish D party interests above the country and trying to flood the country with D voters illegal aliens. The Ds talk openly about how their party will totally control the country forever once minorities become the majority in the USA. They are doing everything they can to open the borders and bring that day closer.



Cheers!

[jedrider]

Extremes beget extremes. The Left's PC movement would not have arisen without being provoked and it is being provoked.

Obama deported a lot of immigrants evidently. It is the whole character of Trump's deportation drive that is in question. It has a deeply racist component. It has a component that is sidestepping legal norms and safeguards.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/05/03/this-is-how-trumps-deportations-differ-from-obamas/?utm_term=.97c97eca1f44

[jedrider]

This article made me laugh after the first paragraph:

Dunning-Kruger Effect
https://www.alternet.org/neuroscientist-explains-how-trump-supporters-are-easily-hoodwinked-because-one-psychological-problem

Being a Trump supporter is analogous to being 'dumb'. I was going to add the word 'ass' after, but I realize that I speak to nice people who support Trump every day. I also speak to 'intelligent' people who support Trump every day. I stand by my assessment, however.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

Jed,

What bothers me most.....

Given the political climate in the USA the Dems have a golden opportunity to take back the house and senate and the Presidency. But they seem to be floundering because they can not articulate a clear message. They are offering no alternative philosophy or program. Their may be bright lights here and there but nothing cohesive, no vision of how to fix things they don’t like. They seem content to run against Trump with no alternative.

So why isn’t the Democratic Party 50 points ahead?

They need to address this question seriously. And that is not Trumos or the R’s fault. That is the D’s fixing their own house.

Give me someone I can vote for.

That's because there's a push to move to the left that is currently being suppressed by the Democratic establishment. The DNC,

I suppose if you don't endorse open borders and the elimination of ICE, as the Democratic Socialists now endorse, that means you are a racist. Yeah, ok go ahead and run on that platform. Just like you ran on the platform that Hillary ran on, that half the country are deplorables and are irredeemable. Beyond help and saving.

DCCC, etc. are actively sabotaging the campaigns of candidates who fall farther to the left on issues, in some cases endorsing Republicans. They want to run on Russia, which the average person doesn't give a shit about, rather than things like universal healthcare and free tuition. They are trying to appeal to the non-existent, Moderate Republican who will vote for Trump anyway because he won't touch their money.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIj9jmf4mSM

The racism claim is pure intellectual bankruptcy. The anti-Trump zealots think they can lie, lie, lie up and down and that gives them moral authority. In the video above the Black Lives Matter activist was brazenly misquoting Trump. If there are no rules, then there can be no rational debate or discussion.

Says the guy who thinks chattel slavery wasn't so bad. Did you delete that ridiculous statement, because I've been trying to find it for sometime?

Listen, Dr. Carson. Racism is a lot more complex than straight up lynching black people and calling them the n-word. I know you don't understand anything outside of climate science, but you have to at least try to find nuance in people's behavior and language.

[mmasters]

This is now the Democrat Party.... espousing the destruction of the US border and ICE. Let the flood of illegals begin

This isn't about "human rights"...this is about the Ds putting their selfish D party interests above the country and trying to flood the country with D voters illegal aliens. The Ds talk openly about how their party will totally control the country forever once minorities become the majority in the USA. They are doing everything they can to open the borders and bring that day closer.

Cheers!

Yup, it's about buying votes with free tacos, food stamps and other entitlements

[Ibon]

That’s why I encourage folks to look at it differently, what is OUR stake in this game?

Coming back to Newfie's question. Yeah, after a couple weeks back in the USA I can only confirm that partisan division and tribal irrationality is alive and well. To everyones detriment it would seem, regardless of whose team you are on. The media is culpable but not solely otherwise the electorate would be brainless maggots feeding unquestionably on the garbage being thrown at them. I will entertain for a moment that Americans are a bit smarter than that.

Something in the gut of the collective is feeding on this division with an insatiable hunger. It might be irrational but the hunger is real. I think the first step in trying to be objective is to recognize this appetite. The media might be feeding it but it did not invent it. So we have this insatiable appetite toward divisiveness. Newfie and others mentioned this seems to be almost primal, something reflected in our social biology. The question then is why now and not before. What has changed that allowed this appetite to bloom and emerge with such a ferocity?

I will take a stab at this.

I think most Americans feel trapped and stuck in an impasse. It doesn't matter where you are on the socio economic ladder, whether rich or poor, being stuck means you are looking into the future and not seeing a prospect of progress. American culture has lived by the ethos for decades that we are a nation on the move and our manifest destiny is to grow and prosper. That our children will have opportunites and endless horizons opening up for them to pursue. There is a recognition in the zeitgeist of America today that this is no longer the case. The media or politicians may be announcing positive economic news but it just doesn't feel like it's true. For the first time perhaps in the history of our country we all feel like we are crowded together in a shrinking pond that is stagnant. This is a perception that is felt in the collective. It does not matter whether it is true or not, the perception is real and influences the psychology of society. This is one of the principal drivers of divisiveness, feeling squeezed, not seeing enough space to maneuver.

Americans for the first time are seeing boundaries, the horizon is no longer endless. There are boundaries and they feel like they are closing in.

I live in another country and this affords me a perspective to step in and out of different collective cultures. I am hit by this irony at the moment. America, so big and so sparsely populated vs so many other nations, so blessed with abundant resources and a strong economy and rule of law, and yet why when I pass through the gates into this land do I sense the population feels pinched? Panama, where I currently live, has so many limits and problems compared to the US on almost all social and economic indicators and yet the Panamanians I associate with do not feel squeezed and pinched.

What is really going on here? Why do we feel squeezed in? Why is this not present in other places? What is feeding this perception. What will cause it to shift?

[Cog]

I suppose it's just stupidity that millions of 3rd world south and central Americans are trying to immigrate to the usa so they can feel squeezed and abused.

Tell them to stay in their paradise ibon, it's horrible here and we don't want them to suffer the American experience. Won't anyone think of the children?

[Newfie]

Ibon,

I don’t know the answers to those great questions. BUT I think all this angst is creating a lot of social and political energy. I see at least two ways for that energy to release.

1) this silly stupid bickering continues until we have an fight, real blood and guts and lots of it
2) some smart pol finds a way to energize this energy into a third party, someone who rejects both sides. I would not be surprised to see Rand Paul or someone of that ilk make a third part move. Try to scoop up the 80% of Americans who think the fringe are nuts.

[Pops]

Here's a hint:

[Newfie]

Yup, lots of fuel for the fire.

[jedrider]

I suppose it's just stupidity that millions of 3rd world south and central Americans are trying to immigrate to the usa so they can feel squeezed and abused.

Tell them to stay in their paradise ibon, it's horrible here and we don't want them to suffer the American experience. Won't anyone think of the children?

Cog, there seems to be past and current civil wars in the region, abetted by the U.S.A. very often. Their birth rate is rather high among indigenous people and even the lower class. They wish to have opportunity. The U.S.A. is a haven of opportunity for those willing to work hard. The US population undergoing this political division is completely disjoint from this immigrant group. Without this immigration, the US would be wondering where is all the cheap labor, their serfs. They are so much into fantasy land, they don't realize that.

[Ibon]

Here's a hint:

This does explain a lot. And from that I will make an assumption:

That bottom 50% that have seen their standard of living and wages decline is probably split pretty evenly on both sides of the partisan divide. It is in the interests of corporate america, both major political parties, and especially the 1% shown on that graph that this 50% remain hostile toward each other and by no means unifies in taking political action.

[Pops]

It is in the interests of corporate america, both major political parties, and especially the 1% shown on that graph that this 50% remain hostile toward each other and by no means unifies in taking political action.

Yeah Baby, that's what I'm talkin!

I think rump and Bernie were talking to those people. rump was just running another R con but he was right about the D-donership fighting Bern at every turn. The D-Donors are fighting back against Bernie and Lizzy by backing further left candidates pushing bigger "programs", abolishing ICE, etc.

[yellowcanoe]

Without this immigration, the US would be wondering where is all the cheap labor, their serfs. They are so much into fantasy land, they don't realize that.

If there are jobs that Americans truly won't do, the solution is a temporary work program where employers can recruit workers from outside of the country for the period of time they are required. Such a program needs to ensure that the need to bring in outside labour is genuine and is not based entirely on the desire of the employer to have the cheapest labour they can get.

[Pops]

Temporary dairy workers? LOL

Half of all workers on U.S. dairy farms are immigrants, and the damage from losing those workers would extend far beyond the farms, nearly doubling retail milk prices and costing the total U.S. economy more than $32 billion, according to a new report commissioned by the National Milk Producers Federation.

The report, which includes the results of a nationwide survey of farms, found that one-third of all U.S. dairy farms employ foreign-born workers, and that those farms produce nearly 80 percent of the nation’s milk.

https://www.agweb.com/article/losing-immigrant-workers-on-dairy-farms-would-nearly-double-retail-milk-prices-naa-news-release/

[Pops]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting immigration—this is a environmental apocalyptic site after all and limits are higher when population is lower. As well, I'm not sure I understand the whole "sanctuary" bit, I mean why would you encourage folks to break the laws by coming in illegally?

On the other hand, I've known lots of Mexicans, both American and illegals and liked most of them. I lived down the road from a farm labor camp as a kid, picked fruit with them summers, worked with them in construction (back when they were a rarity) and at the neighbor's dairy up until a few years ago. They are family people, generous, and can work my butt into the dirt.

Obviously the current politics is about race and not immigration but is directed there to keep the heat off the owners while they are busy grabbing whatever isn't tied down.

[Newfie]

As a kid I had all kinds of “jobs”. Many were very brief. Shucking scallops lasted one night. Those ladies were wicked. First they could out work me about 50 to 1. Then if you got sassy they would flip some scallop guts in your mouth. Dead accurate shots.

I also baited long line hooks once or twice. We used spoilt clams for bait, yummy.

Picked blueberries a bit. Starvation wage.

I made good money treading for little neck clams. Also good money humping bags of surf clams off the draggers and stacking them in transport trailers. Working in the snow, on the trailer loading platform, in my T shirt, running sweat, downing a couple of six packs in a few hours. Then go to school in the morning.

I also had regular jobs roofing, siding, painting. Laying bricks, pumping gas, cleaning toilets.

In none of them did I ever run across one illegal immigrant. They may have been illiterate, heavily accented, funny looking but they were all long term citizens working hard. Those ladies shucking scallops for piece work ( and it was all piece work) have my highest respect. Their accents were thick, retained through many generation from the old country, heavier than you hear on Tangier Island today.

So what has changed in 50 some odd years? And frankly *em if they don’t want to work, although I’m not convienced that the jobs would go empty without immigrants. Maybe wages would need to go up. Maybe the economy down. But what was can be once again.

[mmasters]

A lot of different things going on. People who don't know who they are so they have trouble competing in the game of life, especially when all the low hanging fruit has been taken. Higher and lower evolved people in the game. The PC movement which really took off with the loser Obama. Thinking personality types vs feeling personality types. People with no common sense vs people with common sense. Entitlements. Virtual reality with smartphones, games and the internet. The globalist agenda which has mostly benefited the top 1%

[Pops]

In none of them did I ever run across one illegal immigrant.

I notice that a lot of people who are big on trump never met a Mexican, let alone an illegal.

Survey says:

The results show mixed evidence that economic distress has motivated Trump support. His supporters are less educated and more likely to work in blue collar occupations, but they earn relatively high household incomes and are no less likely to be unemployed or exposed to competition through trade or immigration. On the other hand, living in racially isolated communities with worse health outcomes, lower social mobility, less social capital, greater reliance on social security income and less reliance on capital income, predicts higher levels of Trump support.

{a whole rant about trump that really offered nothing new}