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Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 22:44:08

jedrider wrote:Denialism: what drives people to reject the truth
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/03/denialism-what-drives-people-to-reject-the-truth

Denialism is more than just another manifestation of the humdrum intricacies of our deceptions and self-deceptions. It represents the transformation of the everyday practice of denial into a whole new way of seeing the world and – most important – a collective accomplishment. Denial is furtive and routine; denialism is combative and extraordinary. Denial hides from the truth, denialism builds a new and better truth.


This article pretends that "denialism" is some kind of psychological mechanism that people acting in good faith can fall prey to.

What seems more likely to me is that for political and economic reasons people PRETEND to deny scientific reality (i.e. the truth).

Most deniers of the Holocaust and the Society gulags are fellow travelers---they politically support Russia or Germany or socialism and don't want it tainted by the historical facts.

When South African refused to admit it had an AIDS epidemic, the government there wanted to pretend things were great so it didn't have to take the measures needed to stop the epidemic.

Some people who deny climate change have major economic or social reasons to deny it----who wants to admit the world is ending ----- its bad for business.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 15:04:25

Plantagenet, that's worth discussing, how conscious or subconscious is 'denialism'.

This is not really something new, but worth revisiting:

Facts Don’t Change People’s Minds. Here’s What Does
https://heleo.com/facts-dont-change-peoples-minds-heres/16242/

Saving face is important (more so in other cultures actually).

So, we need to find denialists with a way out, to save face, not "you've been an ignoramus all your life," (usually in a very limited sphere of interest though). That's a tough one. FoxNews did it! Facebook did it!
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 15:13:55

Quite correct JD. That’s why I think it is very impossible grant for the President to throw his weight behind the topic, to bring it up, to talk about it in an educational way, to communicate with the public.

Sadly even SOME CC activist I have talked to don’t really get it, they were activist first and foremost, they had merely attached themselves to CC. That doesn’t help.

So far none seem to understand it themselves. If we could only elecct a non-denialist President.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 15:31:21

I'm sorry: Russians didn't do it! Hillary didn't do it. All of you who voted for Trump did it. Own up. Helping someone else save face is, perhaps, not in my playbook :lol:
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 15:41:12

Liberals who think only Republicans are at fault over climate change. You take a plane for vacation, you know you just fried the planet! That's like putting your dog in the microwave and thinking it will come out alright! Denialism seems part of our DNA certainly.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 17:51:37

Raw meat!

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/09/opin ... trump.html

Consider a few facts: Donald Trump is in the White House, despite winning almost three million fewer votes than Hillary Clinton. The Senate, the country’s most powerful legislative chamber, grants the same representation to Wyoming’s 579,315 residents as it does to 39,536,653 Californians. Key voting rights are denied to citizens in the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico and other United States territories. The American government is structured by an 18th-century text that is almost impossible to change.

These ills didn’t come about by accident; the subversion of democracy was the explicit intent of the Constitution’s framers. For James Madison, writing in Federalist No. 10, “Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention” incompatible with the rights of property owners. The byzantine Constitution he helped create serves as the foundation for a system of government that rules over people, rather than an evolving tool for popular self-government.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 18:00:55

I think I've quoted that before, plagiarizing Times!

Even so the electoral college and representative government made sense back in the day when folks lived out on edge of the frontier. Maybe not so much when we mostly live at the end of a cell signal.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 18:16:36

And a more thoughtful article.

http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/09/soc ... te-speech/

Of course sites like Facebook, Apple, and YouTube are free to ban conspiracy mongers like Alex Jones from their platforms. They have a right to dictate the contours of permissible speech on their sites, and to enforce those standards either dutifully or hypocritically or ideologically or using any method they see fit. No one seriously disputes this.

Then again, Twitter also has a right, as a private entity, to take a stand, and, as the company’s CEO Jack Dorsey explains it, dispassionately allow free exchanges of ideas—even the ugly ones Infowars offers—as long as users don’t break the company’s rules. Yet, here we are, watching a number of journalists—supposed sentinels of free expression—demanding that
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 19:43:08

Nothing worse than being ruled by a mob. Which is why, very wisely, the founders chose a constitutional republic form of governance. Our Constitution prevents the mob from voting our rights away simply because the have achieved a majority.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby dissident » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 00:40:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwvfh6ZS-7U

The implications of current events are very troubling. It looks like a "leftist" regime change operation. The same bogus demonstrations composed of morons hyped up with blood libel and baying for blood. The US mass media is a total failure. It is the agency by which the current strife is activated and propagated. And the Democratic Party is succeeding in pressuring social media companies into engaging in partisan censorship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8nTzfT ... e&t=31m22s

CNN and Democrats in Congress and the Senate should not get to decide who has a voice.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 05:48:09

Do you have any non-video links?
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 14:52:46

The Electorial College.

A good discussion on the value of the Electorial College.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/04/ ... s-us-from/

In a nation as wide and varied as ours, it would be destabilizing to have a president elected over the objections of most of the states. Our American system as a whole — both by design and by experience — demands the patient building of broad, diverse political coalitions over time to effect significant change. The presidency works together with the Senate and House to make that a necessity. The Senate, of course, is also a target of the Electoral College’s critics, but eliminating the equal suffrage of states requires the support of every single state. A president elected without regard to state support is more likely to face a dysfunctional level of opposition in the Senate.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 21:56:04

A tyranny of the majority is no better than the tyranny of a dictator.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 00:01:15

jedrider wrote: we need to find denialists with a way out, to save face, not "you've been an ignoramus all your life,"


Its not just the denialists who are the problems. There are gazillions of right thinking liberals who believe in global warming but nonetheless fell for the hoax that the Paris Climate Accords were actually going to do something to stop climate change.

IMHO both are bad. The denialists who deny climate change and the true believers who nonetheless refuse to do anything substantive about it both accomplish zilch in taking steps to mitigate climate change.

Cheers!
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 19:20:30

Plantagenet wrote:
jedrider wrote: we need to find denialists with a way out, to save face, not "you've been an ignoramus all your life,"


Its not just the denialists who are the problems. There are gazillions of right thinking liberals who believe in global warming but nonetheless fell for the hoax that the Paris Climate Accords were actually going to do something to stop climate change.

IMHO both are bad. The denialists who deny climate change and the true believers who nonetheless refuse to do anything substantive about it both accomplish zilch in taking steps to mitigate climate change.

Cheers!


Since the pathology of both is excessive self entitlement and since consequences will obliterate the indulgences that create the decadence our self entitled culture we can therefore conclude that healing of the division lie within those very consequences. Logical.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 07 Apr 2019, 20:57:39

Watching an interview on PBS with Howard Schultz just now.

He believes he can heal the partisan divide by running for president as an independent.

Schultz is very impressive. I hope he runs. I know there are a lot of people like me who think both the Ds and the Rs could use a good whop upside da head.

Trump won i 2016 because he ran as an outsider. Schultz really would be an outsider.

Cheers!
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 17 Apr 2019, 12:44:12

Came across this, might explain a lot.

118B3A28-43FC-4D66-93F0-30D903DEBB82.jpeg


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.market ... 3C5E6F97B5
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 17 Apr 2019, 13:46:39

Newfie wrote:Came across this, might explain a lot.

118B3A28-43FC-4D66-93F0-30D903DEBB82.jpeg


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.market ... 3C5E6F97B5


Well it was a good joke, gave me a belly laugh!

I mean seriously, to claim that ABC/NBC/CBS are middle of the road unbiased information sources? Seriously? Those 'news' organizations are solidly in the 'democratic party organ' camp of reporting. When was the last time you saw any of them say a nice thing about any politician who was not a Democrat or aligning themselves with Democratic Party talking points? Sure they throw out occasional 'rah rah' stories about non-Democrat politicians, if they happen to be aligning with the Democrats and 'reaching across the aisle', but that is a very long distance from being 'unbiased and neutral'.

HOW you report the facts can be terribly mislead no matter what those facts are. Yes it is a fact that person X claims Y, but that doesn't mean the claim of person X are valid and factual. For example here are two facts. 1) Intense radiation can make you very sick or kill you. 2) Plutonium 239 found in spent nuclear fuel has a half life of 24,000 years so it will detectable in fuel for 240,000 years. Those two facts, without context, leave the average person with the impression that spent nuclear fuel is deadly dangerous for 240,000 years. In reality however it isn't radiation that makes Plutonium dangerous, a 24,000 year halflife is long enough you can play catch with a lump of it with no radiological effect. However like Arsenic, Lead or other heavy metals it is a chemical poison. You don't want to eat, snort, or rub it in open wounds especially as a powder.

Proper unbiased reporting would be clear about the fact that the part of Spent Nuclear Fuel that is a radio-logical hazard are the isotopes with SHORT half lives that cause INTENSE radiation. Things like Strontium-90 and Cesium-137 with half lives of 28 and 30 years respectively are actually short enough to make you sick in high doses, and the shorter lives isotopes get progressively more deadly. HOWEVER because they are intensely radioactive they also pass the 10 half life mark relatively quickly, in this case 280-300 years. So in reality the part of spent nuclear fuel that is a radiation danger fades away in under 300 years, most of it within 30 years. This means storing spent fuel is not a task requiring a vault able to last 240,000 years as is so often claimed, but rather 300 years which is trivial in terms of human achievement.

So whether you are talking politics or science, the 'big three' national news media sources fail badly at the test of being accurate and unbiased, yet whomever created that chart gives them the max score. That says a lot more about the entity creating the chart than it does about the entities on the chart itself, IMO.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 17 Apr 2019, 17:14:05

Since I don’t watch TV I don’t have much opinion. I do use Media Bias Fact Check which gives a left-right orientation. They gauge MarketWatch as right center bias with high factual reporting.

Frankly I’m don’t see any sources I like very much.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 19 Jun 2019, 14:05:06

Here is an RealClearPolitics piece that does a fair analysis of the USA political problems and offers a sensible fix.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/
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