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Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 16:50:42

Plantagenet wrote:Just this morning the Koch brothers--long some of the biggest backers of the R party, announced they would probably switch their support away from Trump and to backing a "free trade" candidate in the D party because they oppose Trump on this issue.

LOL, talk about heads on fire and asses catching! That will make Ds heads spin!
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 22:07:53

The Dems have went full on open borders. Let's see how American voters embrace that. I'm figuring by 2020, you won't get the dem nomination without swearing an oath on the communist manifesto.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 05:06:51

Cog,

Open borders has nothing to do with communisim. It has tons to do with corporatist wanting cheap labor.

R’s are in control of both houses and the Presidency, if they have a hoot they could pass some sensible legislation. That would require a few things: educating the American Public in the problem, making some compromise with the D’s.

Instead both sides are playing political football, scoring points. Deplorable of all involved.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 08:03:07

Open borders has nothing to do with communisim. It has tons to do with corporatist wanting cheap labor.

Bingo! Republicans/Libertarians want GOVT out of the way, well this is what happens with free reign Capitalism, everything becomes about profit. Your party Cog has been siding with the Corporations all along
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 08:34:09

Read what the democratic socialists are advocating. Nothing less than genocide.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 12:51:05

Send me some links, I’ll read it.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 03 Aug 2018, 10:26:40

onlooker wrote:
Open borders has nothing to do with communisim. It has tons to do with corporatist wanting cheap labor.

Bingo! Republicans/Libertarians want GOVT out of the way, well this is what happens with free reign Capitalism, everything becomes about profit. Your party Cog has been siding with the Corporations all along




You guys know I worked 20 years in Latin America before I ended up moving to the region (Panama). As the years passed it is amazing how the citizenry of your typical Latin American country mirrors perfectly today what citizens in the US are saying about their own country. The difference in Latin America is that most citizens abandoned hope in their public institutions already decades ago and fend for themselves. In this way they have a 30 years head start on their American counter parts. Welcome to the global 3rd world folks, thanks to globalization and the influence of the global corporate elite. What has happened to America's middle class in the last 20 years? A great equalizing is happening globally. This started before Trump. That is not an excuse toward the pathological liar who became our president because he promised to drain the swamp! But we do have to understand this process has been going back for decades. Clinton was a corporatist as well, let's not forget. Time for a 3rd party?
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Fri 03 Aug 2018, 11:36:04

Ibon wrote:What has happened to America's middle class in the last 20 years?

On a McMurtry kick this morning
Can't Make It Here Any More

And Iris Dement!
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lyrics
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 03 Aug 2018, 11:59:31

Here's an article about how Trump uses, misuses or abuses language:

This Mathematical Analysis of Trump’s Tweets Reveals His True Agenda
https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/mathematical-analysis-trumps-tweets-reveals-his-true-agenda

On Orwell's 1984:

Newspeak is the only language in the world whose vocabulary gets smaller every year” (55). By manipulating the language, the government wishes to alter the public’s way of thinking.


So, this article basically shows two word associations used repeatedly by Trump.

One aspect of the Partisan Divide is how many words are necessary to convey the "Divide".
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 03 Aug 2018, 12:00:02

I think we all know that in a contracting world Economy and in a world of resource shortages the tendency of Capitalism to create inequality will only be exacerbated. That is precisely the world we are entering into
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 03 Aug 2018, 18:40:08

I think there is not denying that Trump is an agent of the divide. Likewise his haters.

Alexander the Great is famous, but he did little other than despoil other peoples efforts.

Unfortunately those “others” memories have faded.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 09:20:55

Newfie wrote:I think there is not denying that Trump is an agent of the divide. Likewise his haters.

Alexander the Great is famous, but he did little other than despoil other peoples efforts.

Unfortunately those “others” memories have faded.


I would strongly dispute that. Alexander was a military genius who understood how to spot and exploit his opponents weak points while for the most part preventing those enemies from doing the same to him. Do not for a moment credit his opponents as being 'good guys' every single one of them wished they had his skill so they could do unto him before he got the chance to do unto them first.

A lot of modern folks seem to have a very hard time wrapping their head around the fact that throughout almost all of human history the leading powers were the ones who were the most brutal and unforgiving coupled with smart and a small dash of luck. Somehow since the end of the Korean War the populations of North America and Western Europe have lulled themselves into a complacent belief that 'the good guys always win' when historically speaking that is most certainly NOT the case. In many cases there were no good guys, just those who prevailed and those who failed. In other cases the 'good guys' were just as prone to committing atrocities as the bad guys when it served their tactical or strategic advantage.

The US Constitution was one of the first attempts in modern history to distribute the burden of military expenses over the entire population rather than on random citizens who happened to own property and food stores in the wrong place at the wrong time. Until the 3rd amendment of the constitution was put into force the standard practice was for a military unit deployed to an area to seize housing among the local residents with the officers taking the largest homes for their own use and the lower ranks taking the rest until the lowest ranks had to live in tents if housing was not available. While occupying private homes these officers and NCO's had to be fed and otherwise supplied by the residents, usually without recompense or only token payment by the government. If the resident objected to loudly they could be hung as 'traitors' usually as an example to intimidate the other civilians into compliance. This practice dated back as far as written records go to the ancient empires of the neolithic and late bronze age.

But the practice was as close to universal as makes no difference and the 'Army' did not care if the civilians were on their side or belonged to the opponent powers, they treated all civilians the same, as pawns to be used and discarded. In Iraq during the aughties when a military unit went into a civilian house to scout the residents would offer tea and food in an attempt to placate the troops and stay on their good side while they were there. I have seen innumerable statements by returning vets about how surprisingly friendly the local population was when they would move in and occupy a structure. This mostly comes because Americans are taught from an early age that private property is sacrosanct so we expect people to show anger when we invade their property, but the civilians living in Iraq have always known that the power of an armed group of men mean they can do horrible things to you and your family if you show any opposition or resistance. Our troops were not invading these structures to steal or commit crimes, it was generally to look for someone or use the structure for a tactical advantage like a high roof providing a good view of the surroundings. The same was not true of the Hussein regime or any of its predecessors going back to when Alexander the Great invaded the place around 340 BC.

I really wish people would spend more time understanding how unusual modern existence is rather than engaging in pointless petty bickering, but such is human nature. After Peak Oil hits we are all going to need to dust off those kind of survival skills the Iraqi civilians still understand on a gut level, or we will suffer for it.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 09:44:37

Tanada,

No doubt all you say is true, and I always enjoy your thoughtful posts.

My comment was more that he left no great legacy, he conqured existing empires and moved on. Had he lived perhaps that would have come, but it does not seem likely.

If you judge greatness by vicotory your outcome will be different than if you leave behind some greater culture. Napoleon had a good bit of Alexander, but he left behind The Naooleonic Code and other reforms. What was Wellington’s legacy? Washington did not have a glorious military history but he left a huge legacy through his leadership.

Where Trump ends up in this spectrum is not yet known. I suspect that he will be a minor disruptor, no significant long term effect. Could be wrong.

Hope this clarifies.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 10:22:26

Newfie wrote:Tanada,

No doubt all you say is true, and I always enjoy your thoughtful posts.

My comment was more that he left no great legacy, he conqured existing empires and moved on. Had he lived perhaps that would have come, but it does not seem likely.

If you judge greatness by vicotory your outcome will be different than if you leave behind some greater culture. Napoleon had a good bit of Alexander, but he left behind The Naooleonic Code and other reforms. What was Wellington’s legacy? Washington did not have a glorious military history but he left a huge legacy through his leadership.

Hope this clarifies.


Well on the topic of Alexander one of his leading generals was Ptolemy who ended up with the Egyptian portion of the Alexandrian Empire and where Alexander had laid out and ordered the construction of the city of Alexandria. The City started construction in the 320's BC and from them until 397 AD the Library of Alexandria was the premier center of learning and knowledge of the western world. At the time the Christians demolished and burnt it in 397 AD it contained 500,000 books, more than any other center of knowledge anywhere up until that time and all the great mathematicians and philosophers from 320 BC to 397 AD would travel to or correspond with the library leading a large number of inventions being developed and recorded in the Library. One of the great developments of the library was the Sextant, which as a sailor I presume you are familiar with, and the Astrolabe. These scientific instruments let you know your precise latitude in the first case and in the second case the Astrolabe developed from the simple Sextant will let you know your exact longitude as well because it has a built in method of calculating your three coordinate position on the surface of the earth by time of a given objects rise over the horizon and prior knowledge of your latitude. An Astrolabe also has the built in capacity to survey distant objects like mountains or rivers to calculate how high the mountain is or how wide the river is. These and many other scientific advances are the legacy of Alexander the Great.

Sure you are familiar with the Napoleonic Code and the legacy of George Washington because these are recent historical events and emphasized in our culture. But I suspect your discounting of ancient 'great leader' type individuals is more from lack of knowledge about those persons rather than the lack of their accomplishments. Alexandria quickly became the capitol of Egypt and remained so for millennia until the recent post colonial government moved the capitol to Cairo as a way of distancing themselves from outside interference.

Other examples, the Code of Hammurabi became the basis of law and the justice system concept for thousands of years before the creation of the Napoleonic code. You probably know it from the oft quoted 'an eye for an eye' but the bedrock of the code was the concept that if someone did you an injury you deserved recompense or they had to suffer a similar injury for justice to be served.
Another example possibly just as familiar was the Julian Calendar created by Julius Caesar back in about 50 BC (I would have to look up the exact year and I am too lazy) that was used in Western Europe until the Gregorian Calendar of Pope Gregory came into common use and which is still used in Eastern Europe to this day in Russia and a few other places. How about the creation of the Linear B method of recording Greek language with an alphabet that allowed much more precision in recording thoughts and records than the earlier clumsy symbology of the Cuneiform and Hieroglyphic writing systems of Mesopotamia and Egypt respectively? Linear B made it possible for modern persons like ourselves to translate and understand Homer and Euripides and Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle. Surely the Egyptians and Babylonians had poets and mathematicians, but their methods of recording knowledge were too cumbersome for the vast bulk of their work to make it through to the present. The Bronze age Greek on the other hand has survived to be translated and studied over 3600 years of time! Now we can not say precisely who adapted Linear B from the language of the Minoans recorded in still untranslated Linear A, but we have a pretty good idea of when in the history of the Mycenae Greeks this event took place because suddenly there are records in the symbology where before they used a form of glyphs just as clumsy as the Cuneiform and Hieroglyph systems their neighbors used. The unnamed person who developed Linear B has left a mark on our culture that can not be overestimated because it gives us a window into Mycenae and also into the Hittite and Egyptian cultures of the same period because they wrote about their trade partner/neighbors/competitors through the latter half of the Bronze Age.

Don't sell your ancient ancestors short, they were just as smart or smarter than we are and starting with nothing but stone tools and observation they developed agriculture and ways of recording information to pass down to us. Smart phones don't make us particularly intelligent and our actions in regards to exhaustible resources like Oil demonstrate we are not particularly wise either.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 16:39:46

OK Tanada I surrender. Your superior historical knowledge is of no doubt. And I still enjoy you posts. I didn’t think I was selling our historical leaders short, I was making a POTENTIAL equivelence between two specific folks. So if I muffed the analogy my apologies.

But please don’t let that stop you from schooling me, I may not always agree but I enjoy the discussion.

Back somewhere near topic....I don’t expect any new era to come from the Trump administration. I see it as a temporary disruptor.

I think clearly the D core is holding, it does not seem to giving over to any significant reforms. Trump does not seem to be building a party behind him. Even if he is re-elected it will still be merely an 8 year blip. Then back to where we came from. Few fundamental changes.

Perhaps if Trump does win a second term the D’s will see some significant reform towards democracy. Or, unlikely, a third party will emerge. That would be interesting.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby dissident » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 17:06:32

Not to nitpick, but the astrolabe does not measure longitude. Longitude can be inferred by the drift of high noon as one moves east or west. That is why it was the development of high precision clocks in Britain that for the first time enabled precise latitude determination:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_(book)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 21:11:29

dissident wrote:Not to nitpick, but the astrolabe does not measure longitude. Longitude can be inferred by the drift of high noon as one moves east or west. That is why it was the development of high precision clocks in Britain that for the first time enabled precise latitude determination:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitude_(book)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrolabe


But you can use an Astrolabe to discover your latitude and exact time of day, and with a decent baseline you can use those two numbers to calculate your longitude.
Finding the time of day

The time of day is found in the following steps:

The altitude of the Sun or a bright star is determined using the back of the instrument. The astrolabe is held above eye level from the suspension. The astrolabe is oriented so the Sun or star is lined up with the back of the astrolabe. The alidade is rotated until the Sun's shadow or the star itself is visible through the sights on the alidade. The altitude is noted from the altitude scale on the back of the instrument.
The Sun's position on the ecliptic is found by setting the alidade on the date and reading the Sun's longitude on the zodiac scale.
On the front of the astrolabe, the rule is rotated until is crosses the ecliptic at the Sun's current longitude. The point where the rule crosses the ecliptic is the Sun's current position.
The rete and rule are rotated together until the Sun or star pointer is at the measured altitude.
The rule points to the apparent solar time on the limb. Apparent solar time is the time as shown on a sundial and is different for each longitude.

Astrolabe uses

By knowing your local latitude and local solar time you can calculate your local longitude as well. It requires a top quality instrument and math tables, but it can be done.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 04 Aug 2018, 21:15:36

Newfie wrote:OK Tanada I surrender. Your superior historical knowledge is of no doubt. And I still enjoy you posts. I didn’t think I was selling our historical leaders short, I was making a POTENTIAL equivelence between two specific folks. So if I muffed the analogy my apologies.

But please don’t let that stop you from schooling me, I may not always agree but I enjoy the discussion.

Back somewhere near topic....I don’t expect any new era to come from the Trump administration. I see it as a temporary disruptor.

I think clearly the D core is holding, it does not seem to giving over to any significant reforms. Trump does not seem to be building a party behind him. Even if he is re-elected it will still be merely an 8 year blip. Then back to where we came from. Few fundamental changes.

Perhaps if Trump does win a second term the D’s will see some significant reform towards democracy. Or, unlikely, a third party will emerge. That would be interesting.


Apologies, History is my first true love and I have often felt that people could do so much better if they would pay attention to its many lessons. The thing is I think you do fairly well paying attention to history, you just triggered my hot button when you seemed to casually dismiss the achievements of Alexander the Great. When I was about 8 years old I got a national Geographic map, taped it up on my wall and colored in his empire because it was as far back as I knew about at the time. I have always loved libraries so the stories about the Library of Alexandria always got my attention.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 09:33:52

I like history also, and Anthropology, but you are far ahead of me.
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Re: Healing The Partisan Divide Pt. 3

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 12:36:00

Denialism: what drives people to reject the truth
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/03/denialism-what-drives-people-to-reject-the-truth

Denialism is more than just another manifestation of the humdrum intricacies of our deceptions and self-deceptions. It represents the transformation of the everyday practice of denial into a whole new way of seeing the world and – most important – a collective accomplishment. Denial is furtive and routine; denialism is combative and extraordinary. Denial hides from the truth, denialism builds a new and better truth.


Long article, I find it all interesting except for the conclusion. I think this is a phase nutured by the long history of Republican revisionism and exceptionalism that I think will come to an end and a common consensus developed OR outright breakdown of society will occur, which I give equal probability to.
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