Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Have Even A Partial Solution?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 18:31:35

holmes wrote:For the love of god, there are such devices that exist!


That is a picture of a Japanese pocket hotel. The guy inside is likely setting the thermostat to his preference before going to sleep.
User avatar
rwwff
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri 28 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Jack » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 18:46:09

Novus wrote:- Convert homes/businesses to DC power (Makes all electronics/appliences cheaper and more energy efficient)


While making transmission less efficient. You can find out why in Wikipedia. So the gains you get in one area will be more than offset by transmission losses. Or shall we scrap the existing power generation infrastructure? :lol:

Novus wrote:- Build Stirling Solar Collactors (For Localized Water purifying & Power Generation)


Stirling engines? Now how are you going to use a stirling engine to purify water? I suppose your idea is to create massive solar-driven generators - but why on Earth use a stirling engine? And, too, this has us scrapping the existing infrastructure and building a whole new one. Yikes!

Novus wrote:- Grey water management system for rural areas


That sounds like a serious energy burner; and why target rural areas? The population is least dense there, so running an extensive network of sewers and grey water supply pipes is going to represent a massive undertaking.

Novus wrote:- Build Wind power generation (Localized Power Generation)


That's already being done. Visit West Texas sometime.

Novus wrote:- Build Geo Thermal Heat pumps (replaces hot water heater, furnus, air conditioning all in one)


So now we have another replacement of infrastructure. The costs - both in terms of money and resources - will be horrific. Besides, per Jevon's paradox, we don't gain anything. We'll briefly conserve energy, then the masses will boink like rabbits, which will increase the surplus population. The energy savings from the heat pumps will be overwhelmed by boinkers.

Novus wrote:- Divorce your car and move to a walkable community (change zoning laws)


Zoning laws? I see. :lol:

So, are we to change where people work in mass? Or tear down existing business districts to create housing? What shall we do with trillions of dollars worth of existing housing? Are the suburbanites to be relocated at the point of a bayonet?

Or is this a kinder, gentler relocation - i.e., one that no one will choose to do?

Novus wrote:- Become a cannabis farmer (government needs to make leagal)


Bio-fuels again. So as the boinkers do their thing and the population increases, where does food come from? Or does everyone just smoke the stuff so they don't care?

I'm sorry, Novus, but this is not engineering. It simply will not work.

On the bright side, it confirms my expectations. People and governments will repeat the mantra "Failure is Not an Option". Legions of workers with determined looks and jaws set will march forth to implement all manner of purported solutions. The masses will look on with optimism.

And it will fail. All of it. It will come crashing down, and the cost of creating it will bankrupt civilization, resulting in a greater dieoff than could ever have been accomplished otherwise.

Really, it would be so much easier to let nature take its course, and permit disease and famine to do their useful work in the third world. Then, with some powering down and serious population control, we in the developed countries could enjoy something of a good life.

8)
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 20:45:52

Novus wrote:
Ludi wrote:Here's another question for Novus:

Where will the funds come from to implement your solutions?


In my opinion energy is money. If there is money then it will find its' way to the energy sooner or later. One solution I have been thinking about is where some type energy credit becomes the currency of the future. Anyone who can produce energy can basically print their own money. This changes the creation of money away from banks and puts it in the hands of producers where it belongs. The money system can then only expand as much energy creation does.


Oh for the love of pete, Novus! Please TRY to stay in the real world. I'm not talking about some fabulous future in which people can print their own legitimate currency, I'm talking about the REAL ACTUAL WORLD we live in today.

Stop living in fantasy land. This is serious, real stuff we're dealing with here.

I think I'm giving up on this nonsense.

Thanx for doomerizing me a little more, Novus. Thanx a bundle. :-x
Ludi
 

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 20:57:27

Ludi wrote:Thanx for doomerizing me a little more, Novus.


Just relax and enjoy the ride; I think most people have deduced that there really are only two paths forward, "Monte's Power Down", and "Go For Broke". Monte is getting a little.... intense... because he's figured out what I've figured out. TPTB have selected "Go For Broke" and have stomped on the gas pedal. Basically this means that this multi billion person civilization is headed straight down a runway with a brick wall at the end. If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury. If they fail.... We're gonna be a flaming pile of refuse.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
User avatar
rwwff
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri 28 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 21:05:31

rwwff wrote: If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.


And I become yet more doomeristic.

Fusion and "true geothermal" (whatever that means) DO NOT ADDRESS the other inevitable Peak Problems we face as a culture.

Can you not get this through your heads????

(giving up now. buh bye)
Ludi
 

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 21:18:10

Ludi wrote:
rwwff wrote: If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.


And I become yet more doomeristic.

Fusion and "true geothermal" (whatever that means) DO NOT ADDRESS the other inevitable Peak Problems we face as a culture.

Can you not get this through your heads????


I understand them, I'm just calling it like I see it.

Mostly I see the end result as a flaming pile of refuse. I've given a more vivid description of the nightmare that I see, in another thread, and I'd prefer to not do that again.

Just think of it as betting the lives of 6 billion people on 23-Red.

"True geothermal" would be some magical scientific and engineering breakthrough in materials and processes that would allow tapping the energy in the mantle without relying on unstable geology for the opportunity. There are other types of geothermal that nibble at the edges which are being deployed or are currently deployable, but they don't come close to a power solution for the future. True geothermal or fusion, would provide enough power to create hydrogen from the electrolysis of water on the scale that one might classify as luxury.

But, like I said above.... 23-Red.
Spin the wheel.
User avatar
rwwff
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri 28 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Jack » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 21:50:07

rwwff wrote:Mostly I see the end result as a flaming pile of refuse. I've given a more vivid description of the nightmare that I see, in another thread, and I'd prefer to not do that again.


I don't suppose you might be willing to include a link? Yes, I can always use search or google within the domain, but a link can be more concise.

I guess I only partly agree. I think they have, as you propose, decided to go for broke - but not out of a hope that a techno-fix of any sort will occur. Those are, quite frankly, not going to happen before peak oil intervenes and shuts the process down.

No, I think they're accumulating cash and other assets. They'll buy the goods and services they want, and they can afford it. The typical American or European will live frugally, shiver in a cold house during winter, and die early for lack of medical care. The third world will die. But for a billionaire, life will be just fine.

The essential problem for many is to accept that lots of people are going to die, and nothing can (or will) be done to stop it. It will require a change of attitude, one which most resist.
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby rwwff » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 22:37:29

Jack wrote:
rwwff wrote:Mostly I see the end result as a flaming pile of refuse. I've given a more vivid description of the nightmare that I see, in another thread, and I'd prefer to not do that again.


I don't suppose you might be willing to include a link? Yes, I can always use search or google within the domain, but a link can be more concise.


http://www.peakoil.com/post314872.html+nuke#314872

Good excercise with the search button. I rarely use it here...

I guess I only partly agree. I think they have, as you propose, decided to go for broke - but not out of a hope that a techno-fix of any sort will occur. Those are, quite frankly, not going to happen before peak oil intervenes and shuts the process down.

No, I think they're accumulating cash and other assets. They'll buy the goods and services they want, and they can afford it. The typical American or European will live frugally, shiver in a cold house during winter, and die early for lack of medical care. The third world will die. But for a billionaire, life will be just fine.


Could be. I certainly can't demonstrate proof to the contrary. Still, I'd rather execute a "go for broke" and fail, than participate in Monte's controlled die-off. I'm uninterested in "fair", I'm interested in winning, or least going down swinging.

Besides, we open the windows here in the winter. No shivering requried. Just a sigh of relief. If I feel a little chilly, a sweater makes it just absolutely perfect. ... back to reality ....

OTOH, I don't like to completely dismiss the possible deployment of a working fusion generator within the United States before everything comes unglued. I hate being wrong. If I give'em 1:100 odds, and they make it, then I wasn't being a complete idiot, they just did incredible work.

The essential problem for many is to accept that lots of people are going to die, and nothing can (or will) be done to stop it. It will require a change of attitude, one which most resist.


Most likely true. And probably sooner rather than later, especially in the third world.
User avatar
rwwff
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri 28 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Jack » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 22:56:08

Thanks for the link! I certainly wouldn't disagree with the scenario....

I suppose I like a hybrid approach. Keep our lifestyle pleasant, try to come up with things to maintain it (even though I don't think they'll work), and engineer a dieoff of large numbers of third worlders.

It is a malicious approach; however, that's never stopped me before. 8)
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 20 Jun 2006, 23:32:31

rwwff wrote:If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.


Not with our current mindset we won't. We will just ravage the environment with a renewed vengeance. When we came upon fossil fuels we certainly didn't embrace environmental responsibility. Neither with nuclear that was going to be "too cheap to meter."
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16299
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 00:37:58

MonteQuest wrote:
rwwff wrote:If fusion or true geothermal deploy in time, we can pull up and survive in luxury.


Not with our current mindset we won't. We will just ravage the environment with a renewed vengeance. When we came upon fossil fuels we certainly didn't embrace environmental responsibility. Neither with nuclear that was going to be "too cheap to meter."


I didn't say aesthetically pleasing, I said luxury.

There used to be a usenet group (half as a joke) alt.pave.the.earth.

Imagine if you will......

A world of genetically engineered ulti-fruit plants that grow in tanks of warm water, and fed by electrically produced nutrients sucked out of the air. Oxygen, Iron, Aluminum, etc, all ripped apart and put back together on a massive scale. A manufactured sun-shielding atmosphere and powered heat pumps controlling the environment at a comfortable 72 degrees F and 35% relative humidity world wide. Humans spending their lives in chat rooms, blogs, and VR simulators, occassionally getting together in groups for sexual exploits and fights, then off to the hospital to get fixed up or safed for pregnancy. The great crime of the era becomes lacing people's ulti-fruit burgers with hallucinigenic powder and placing wagers on whether they stroke out or not...

A very different kind of hell, I think.

The amount of environmental damage humans could accomplish with a powerful, renewable energy source is staggering.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
User avatar
rwwff
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri 28 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby TonyPrep » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 02:39:03

Novus wrote:You can read all about my solutions when I publish my book of Peak Oil solutions in early 2007.

The summery of solutions I propose is as follows. Sorry there is not much an individual can do right now. These solutions are aimed mostly at big energy companies and governments who are desparately looking for a plan B right about now.

- Convert homes/businesses to DC power (Makes all electronics/appliences cheaper and more energy efficient)
- Build Stirling Solar Collactors (For Localized Water purifying & Power Generation)
- Grey water management system for rural areas
- Build Wind power generation (Localized Power Generation)
- Build Geo Thermal Heat pumps (replaces hot water heater, furnus, air conditioning all in one)
- Divorce your car and move to a walkable community (change zoning laws)
- Become a cannabis farmer (government needs to make leagal)
Novus, I hope you include a full energy costing for your various solutions, including planning, building and maintenance. If we have already hit peak oil, that energy may be hard to find. You should, therefore, include ideas on powering down, in order to make the energy available for these "solutions".

At least you included one idea about water. Energy is only one of the converging problems we face.

Tony
User avatar
TonyPrep
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sun 25 Sep 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Waiuku, New Zealand

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:15:48

Jack, I'm assuming your suggestion is to colonize 3rd world land for exsess westerners after the "killing off" ? Otherwise what would be the point ?

Novus, I think the desperate attitude you display here will become very popular in the future, but I'm afraid its' not enough to trump the laws of physics.
---
Battle_Scarred_Galactico
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu 07 Apr 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Jack » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 06:51:26

Battle_Scarred_Galactico wrote:Jack, I'm assuming your suggestion is to colonize 3rd world land for exsess westerners after the "killing off" ? Otherwise what would be the point ?


The 3rd world land would be used for plantations for biofuels and other resources - so they might be colonized, as you suggest. Then again, some of the third worlders are sure to survive, so they could do the work required. The key is to reduce the demand for resources while maintaining most of the supply.

Was it not Kissinger who spoke of most of the world's population as "useless eaters?" The implications are obvious.
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 07:25:58

Biofuels would be the worst use of land, and you'd have to ship the damn stuff back anyway. My point was that carrying capacity in industrial countries will lower regardless of what happens elsewhere.
---
Battle_Scarred_Galactico
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu 07 Apr 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Zardoz » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 08:43:35

rwwff wrote:...Besides, we open the windows here in the winter. No shivering requried. Just a sigh of relief. If I feel a little chilly, a sweater makes it just absolutely perfect. ... back to reality....


The nasty reality being that those of us who live in temperate climates like yours (and mine) are going to have lots and lots of company when TSHTF. Hope you have a spare room for them.

People who live in the very cold climates are not going to just lay down and accept death by freezing. They'll make their way to areas where you can survive winter nights without a heat source.

Get ready to say "Howdy!" to a whole bunch of new neighbors...
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
User avatar
Zardoz
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6323
Joined: Fri 02 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Oil-addicted Southern Californucopia

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 09:03:14

If the gulf-stream stops that could be us here in the UK. Although at the moment its' a bit on the warm side.
---
Battle_Scarred_Galactico
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 936
Joined: Thu 07 Apr 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 13:26:58

Zardoz wrote:The nasty reality being that those of us who live in temperate climates like yours (and mine) are going to have lots and lots of company when TSHTF. Hope you have a spare room for them.


Back to Zombie Hordes again.

1) if it were true, the Zombies will go for these hippy communes, permaculture farms, and purposeful communities just as soon, or more likely sooner, than they'd come for us.

2) In Texas, we have standing orders to shoot all Zombies. You have to get'em in the head though, just like in the movies. You don't get any points for body shots.

Those jokes aside, I have to point out that if I'm ever able to come with a strategy for a civilian horde to successfully invade from the north, I'll become concerned. As it is, every time I try one, I just end up with a very large pile of dead Zombies, a few burned buildings and a few dead locals. I can come to only one conclusion.... There will be no Zombie hordes.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
User avatar
rwwff
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2601
Joined: Fri 28 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: East Texas

Re: Do you have an 'Acceptable' Problem ?

Unread postby fireplaceguy » Thu 22 Jun 2006, 14:15:02

rwwff wrote:
Zardoz wrote:The nasty reality being that those of us who live in temperate climates like yours (and mine) are going to have lots and lots of company when TSHTF. Hope you have a spare room for them.


Back to Zombie Hordes again.

1) if it were true, the Zombies will go for these hippy communes, permaculture farms, and purposeful communities just as soon, or more likely sooner, than they'd come for us.

2) In Texas, we have standing orders to shoot all Zombies. You have to get'em in the head though, just like in the movies. You don't get any points for body shots.

Those jokes aside, I have to point out that if I'm ever able to come with a strategy for a civilian horde to successfully invade from the north, I'll become concerned. As it is, every time I try one, I just end up with a very large pile of dead Zombies, a few burned buildings and a few dead locals. I can come to only one conclusion.... There will be no Zombie hordes.
Too bad! I was hoping to put some dead zombie matter in a centrifuge and see if they have any oil in 'em...
User avatar
fireplaceguy
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu 04 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Do you have an "acceptable" solution to peak o

Unread postby whereagles » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 04:27:59

Peak oil is very easy to solve if people were smart, or if they let the smart people do their work unopposed.

But they aren't, nor they do.
User avatar
whereagles
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 586
Joined: Wed 17 Aug 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Portugal

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AdamB and 12 guests