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Guy McPherson

Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 06:27:35

Fredrik wrote:About human survival with global warming of several degrees: this is pretty theoretical, but it might be feasible to turn at least some of the northern coniferous forest region into farmland. I know the main problem is acidic soil, but potatoes and oats grow in quite acidic soil too and the pH value of soil can be augmented with lime (current global production seems to be more than enough for pH improvement of a few million hectars of new farmland). Of course this would take time and further reduce the CO2 sink of the northern forest region.

Where it is feasible I'm sure it will be done but the consensus (did I say that?) is that the topsoil there is so thin and poorly drained over vast areas that you will not be able to replace more then a fraction of the now productive land that global warming will make unusable. Are there areas in Finland that are level enough for Ag machinery to operate on once the trees are cleared?
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby Cog » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 11:47:26

Terracing like they do in Japan and some Indonesian countries could probably be done in Finland.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 12:49:57

Looking on Google earth Finland already has farm fields as far as 65 deg N. with just the bit called Lapland between there and the Norwegian border. Nowhere to go.
Looking over to Canada's Saskatchewan province the wheat belt extends from the N.Dakota border north to an abrupt end about 55 degrees N. Perhaps you could extend that a degree or two if the weather permits. Time will tell.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby Fredrik » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 15:39:32

In Finland, some of the coniferous zone has already been turned into farmland (mostly forest patches with more deciduous trees like birches, with more fertile soil). Such patches with mixed forest probably also exist elsewhere in the northern taiga belt. The terrain is quite flat here, so no problem with slopes. The western part of the Eurasian coniferous zone (= European & West Siberian North Russia) is flat as well.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 15:59:00

I would think it more productive to install climate controlled poly tunnels in areas that are desert or become so. The poly would prevent excess evaporation and part of the roof could be covered to control the amount of sunlight and internal temperature. Your not going to grow wheat or corn for five dollars a bushel but you could have intensive production on a square footage basis. Adjacent solar panels could provide the power for water circulation and cooling if needed making the whole operation renewable.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Mar 2019, 20:59:46

pstarr wrote:Millions of acres of poly tunnel plastic. What pray tell could be wrong with that picture?

Do I really post here?
We could go back to glass green houses of course if you want to be a purist. No shortage of sand to make glass.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby careinke » Tue 12 Mar 2019, 18:34:51

Permaculture.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 12 Mar 2019, 21:31:16

careinke wrote:Permaculture.

All hype no fact.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby careinke » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 01:09:12

vtsnowedin wrote:
careinke wrote:Permaculture.

All hype no fact.


You are just not looking.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby derhundistlos » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 03:25:27

"No shortage of sand to make glass."

In fact, a global sand shortage is so severe that many countries ban the export of sand and a thriving black market has developed. Ecosystems are being ripped apart to get at the sand. Like so many other developing shortages, the facts are being suppressed.

"When people picture sand spread across idyllic beaches and endless deserts, they understandably think of it as an infinite resource. But as we discuss in a just-published perspective in the journal Science, over-exploitation of global supplies of sand is damaging the environment, endangering communities, causing shortages and promoting violent conflict."

http://theconversation.com/the-world-is ... isis-83557
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 07:05:37

careinke wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
careinke wrote:Permaculture.

All hype no fact.


You are just not looking.
When you can show me some large farms that are making a living off the food they are growing and not on the fees they charge to seminar attendees get back to me. Permaculture is the Amway of agriculture.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 08:22:17

derhundistlos wrote:"No shortage of sand to make glass."

In fact, a global sand shortage is so severe that many countries ban the export of sand and a thriving black market has developed. Ecosystems are being ripped apart to get at the sand. Like so many other developing shortages, the facts are being suppressed.

"When people picture sand spread across idyllic beaches and endless deserts, they understandably think of it as an infinite resource. But as we discuss in a just-published perspective in the journal Science, over-exploitation of global supplies of sand is damaging the environment, endangering communities, causing shortages and promoting violent conflict."

http://theconversation.com/the-world-is ... isis-83557

Sand shortages are a transportation problem not a supply problem.There is this thing called the Sahara you might have heard of. :)
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby derhundistlos » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 08:35:18

"Sand shortages are a transportation problem not a supply problem.There is this thing called the Sahara you might have heard of."

Yeah, know all about it. If you had bothered to read the information, then you would know that desert sand will not work in construction applications, including the production of cement and concrete.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby derhundistlos » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 08:44:24

This from world cement:

"The vast quantities of sand found in the many deserts of the world give rise to the misleading notion that sand is an almost unlimited natural resource. In fact, the properties of the sand used in concrete can have dramatic impacts on its quality. The wind erosion of sand in the desert results in smooth, rounded grains, which do not bind well. Moreover desert sand is mono-grained, meaning of similar size. This makes it unsuitable for use in concrete, which requires small, intermediate, and coarser particles to prevent voids between grains and reduce the amount of water necessary. Instead, then, sand for construction has traditionally been mined from land quarries and riverbeds."
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 08:53:34

I've graded and tested more construction sand then you will ever see. When you run short of that in local deposits you crush it out of the base rock and screen and wash it to the desired gradation.
But we were taking about sand for glass manufacture and desert sands like that found in the Shara are ideal for that.
Again if you are short of sand what you are really saying is you are short of "Cheap" sand close by to where you need it.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby derhundistlos » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 09:07:01

You replied to my comment with the following, "Sand shortages are a transportation problem not a supply problem. There is this thing called the Sahara you might have heard of." This statement is patently false based on easily verifiable facts. Transportation is NOT the problem. It is due to the world's declining stock of construction applicable sand.I'm glad to know you have "graded and tested more construction sand then you will ever see." So what? It doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Note to self: When in a hole, rule number one is stop digging.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 Mar 2019, 09:12:13

derhundistlos wrote:You replied to my comment with the following, "Sand shortages are a transportation problem not a supply problem. There is this thing called the Sahara you might have heard of." This statement is patently false based on easily verifiable facts. Transportation is NOT the problem. It is due to the world's declining stock of construction applicable sand.I'm glad to know you have "graded and tested more construction sand then you will ever see." So what? It doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Note to self: When in a hole, rule number one is stop digging.

Again we were discussing sand for making glass. Can you not read and comprehend?
As to the construction sand there is no worldwide shortage of that just local shortages caused by the cost of transporting sand from where it lies to where it is needed. At 90 pounds per cubic foot the cost of transporting it long distances soon outweighs the value of the delivered product.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby Fredrik » Thu 14 Mar 2019, 09:34:48

The suitability of Saharan sand for glass is a meaningless debate if there is not enough water for growing things in greenhouses/tunnels.
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Re: Guy McPherson

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 14 Mar 2019, 10:00:36

Fredrik wrote:The suitability of Saharan sand for glass is a meaningless debate if there is not enough water for growing things in greenhouses/tunnels.

The glass would greatly reduce the amount of water lost to evaporation making trucked in water or desalinated sea water viable.
I don't think this is a cheap option just cheaper then the practicality of moving farming north into what is now boreal forest.
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