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Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Revi » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 07:13:58

Climate strike this Friday! Anyone doing anything? I am working to rule and going to a rally for an hour.

I'll probably carry my Save our Syrup sign and drive my electric car!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 07:29:24

I think it is worth examining the values that go into developing the strategy as in EU's story. He had a mentor he mentioned but it seems he was already following the principals of living debt free before he met this mentor. If anything the mentor just confirmed the wisdom of the path he was already on.
So EU, a question. What were the values in your early life that made you choose the frugality and minimum consumption lifestyle?

What is it that causes some of us to escape the consumption and debt trap? How did we avoid this and follow a different path?

In my case I fell into a deep relationship with nature when I was a kid that stayed with me into adulthood. It influenced my choice of studies in the University and I can remember already as a young adult beginning to look at society around me and recognizing the trap of being enslaved in work. I graduated from the university with $90 to my name. The thought of a job back then after graduation? Fuck no. I hit the road hitchhiking across America and for the next 7 years lived a life working in canneries in Alaska, going on long back packs and canoe expeditions, being a wilderness counselor for kids, selling italian ice from a street cart at Liberty Plaza in NYC. Roaming with a deep sense of adventure, dipped down into Mexico, volunteered at an orphanage for a year, learned spanish.... The list goes on and on, these were crazy wild years and I looked at suburbia and consumption culture back then and I recognized mediocrity and waste and death.

When I became domesticated from these wild years, went through two marriages, raised kids, entered the world of commerce for a couple of decades, grew wealth, I did this never forgetting those wild years. In fact the depth of living those wild years insulated me from buying into the message of consumption. Just like EU, I only bought used cars, paid off mortgages, stored nuts. I was doing this already with a plan to exit the world of commerce as soon as possible. I was good in business to a large degree because of the street smarts I learned all those years on the road and in the bush with the honing effect of wilderness. While I was in business I looked around at all my colleagues taking their careers so serious, involved in petty ego wars and competing to climb the corporate ladder etc. and going into debt and getting entrapped and I said to myself, patience, play the game but get the fuck out of it as soon as you have stored enough nuts.

And that is what I did. There was no other option really for me. The natural world and adventures entered into my soul to the degree that I became adrenalized by this life and the suburban domestic work world and office cubicle always seemed so dead and awful.

Even those years of putting on the harness of being in the world of commerce the choice of professional work had to have some degree of risk and adventure otherwise I was bored. That is how I ended up in Latin America and learning the ropes of international business. Free weekends in Quito Ecuador or Sao Paulo? Where was I? Probably bird watching in some nearby national park. The reps I worked with thought I was nuts until years later I started inviting them to see some of the natural beauty in their own country. Many were so urbanized they didn't know the natural assets in their own back yards. They appreciated this and I gained a lot respect this way through the years. Afterall, I was honoring their country showing them beauty in their backyards.

Most humans do not live life with an intensity, understanding this is a major gift and you only are around for a couple of decades before your gone. For ever. No heaven, no hell, this brief moment of sentient life is all you get. It's done.... and most just want to waste it in a deep fog of consumption?

Most just choose dead and mediocre paths and I think this is related to going into debt and living high consumption life style. You let external objects entertain you instead of generating within yourself a sense of wellbeing and adventure. All those fat asses sitting in front of action packed video games seems to sum it up well!

I don't know how much of this is learned and how much is innate. Nature or nurture?

To what degree can we socialize society to be awake, to be content without the distraction of consumption? Is the default position of most humans so mediocre that they are not inspired when looking at the heavens at night, not seeing this life as an adventure. Or have most modern humans become socialized into compromised dead high consumption mediocrity? I wonder.
Last edited by Ibon on Tue 17 Sep 2019, 08:41:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 08:17:20

Revi wrote:Climate strike this Friday! Anyone doing anything? I am working to rule and going to a rally for an hour.

I'll probably carry my Save our Syrup sign and drive my electric car!


I have to default to Ghung's action plan. Tend to my greenhouse, maybe go in the forest and retrieve the game cameras and see what wildlife they captured.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Revi » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 08:58:20

Ibon wrote:
Revi wrote:Climate strike this Friday! Anyone doing anything? I am working to rule and going to a rally for an hour.

I'll probably carry my Save our Syrup sign and drive my electric car!


I have to default to Ghung's action plan. Tend to my greenhouse, maybe go in the forest and retrieve the game cameras and see what wildlife they captured.


Nice!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 09:05:21

"To what degree can we socialize society to be awake"

It's noble to try, but you're doomed to fail. I think humans generally scale their consumption to the level of prosperity a society provides. This is also why despite the oil runup of 2008 people shifted right back to buying SUVs and trucks once gas got cheap enough. Not only that, social status generally means a lot to people. Men are judged by women based on wealth and status and women are inherently materialistic as part of their drive to build a nest and provide for their children. Acquisition is therefore part of the mating ritual. (38 million views on this clip because it demonstrates a deep-seated but uncomfortable human truth.) Humans are wired for short-term thinking, to binge and fatten up during times of surplus to protect from lean times (which don't exist in the first world). The exception (such as yourself) only proves the rule.

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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 11:06:41

Over one million kids are expected to go on climate strike just in New York City.

climate-strikes-nyc-1m-students-can-skip-school

The climate strike here in central Alaska will be much much smaller then the one in NYC but I'll be there.

Its amazing that this world-wide movement started with just one kid---Greta.

IMHO she should get this year's Nobel Peace Prize. I can't think of any other single person who has made such a significant contribution to the world this year.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 12:41:54

Plantagenet wrote:Over one million kids are expected to go on climate strike just in New York City.

climate-strikes-nyc-1m-students-can-skip-school

The climate strike here in central Alaska will be much much smaller then the one in NYC but I'll be there.

Its amazing that this world-wide movement started with just one kid---Greta.

IMHO she should get this year's Nobel Peace Prize. I can't think of any other single person who has made such a significant contribution to the world this year.

Cheers!


Before we get to concrete binding agreements governments need to feel the power of their citizens demanding action. That is why I am not cynical toward this Great phenomenon. She is spearheading this because she is not rising in a vacuum. Her generation is with her and they are going to feel the opening acts of more painful consequences in their lifetimes and you can almost feel that this generation intuits this.... they know it..... there is substance to this movement. I feel it also.

We should never never under estimate the young generations....
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 13:39:51

Revi wrote:Climate strike this Friday! Anyone doing anything? I am working to rule and going to a rally for an hour.

I'll probably carry my Save our Syrup sign and drive my electric car!


I’ll do what I always do, argue with folks on the internet about climate change and how to react.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Sep 2019, 22:59:17

Greta Thunberg wins "conscience" award from Amnesty International

teen-activist-thunberg-receives-conscience-award

She used her acceptance speech to encourage people to participate in the global climate strike on friday.

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Greta at the White House telling Donald Trump to go on strike and join the global climate change movement
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 01:32:41

Ibon wrote:I think it is worth examining the values that go into developing the strategy as in EU's story. He had a mentor he mentioned but it seems he was already following the principals of living debt free before he met this mentor. If anything the mentor just confirmed the wisdom of the path he was already on.
So EU, a question. What were the values in your early life that made you choose the frugality and minimum consumption lifestyle?

Within my family most of debt, in particular consumer debt, was seen as an evil idea dedicated for stupid people. My parents were used to say "all what you need to do to hurt a stupid is to lend him some money".
The only acceptable debt was the one for an investment puropose, designed to earn you more money. Mortgage yes, but if you need to borrow 20-30% and certainly not 80-100%.
Even then you had to proceed with care.
My father is PhD mathematician and engineer. My mom an engineer. At the age of ~12 I have understood implications of exponential function and "felt it in my blood". I had a good judgement when to mentally extrapolate things applying exponential rather than linear function from about that age onwards which was quite puzzling but also pleasing for my parents.
From where you got those horrible numbers??? This was often a question.
My parents are also Nature lovers, in young age they were sending me to countryside as much as possible. So for example I can milk a cow.

When I have moved to UK and started working my learned values have crashed against those more popular in society. Fortunately I got Far Eastern wife who was rather easy to bend to my vievs as her own from childhood were comparable and this have saved me woman related troubles.
While observing co-workers I was often thinking "who is stupid - they or me?".
Lifestyle of this very wealthy person I have mentioned and his value system was very reassuring for me albeit he was doing it rather to pass by in society without unwanted attention and also he was used to having maney being from aristocratic family with huge wealth.
He could afford a lot but it was a repugnant concept for him to overspend.
Repugnant enough that he has disinherited an in his words "discarded from family" one of his daughters who was a spendthrift and was making big parties for her friends worth $100 000 each.
Interestingly years later this daughter have ended up living in small rented flat, had to do clerical job and family forgotten her entirely.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 05:58:09

Plantagenet wrote:Over one million kids are expected to go on climate strike just in New York City.

And:
ibon wrote:Before we get to concrete binding agreements governments need to feel the power of their citizens demanding action. That is why I am not cynical toward this Great phenomenon. She is spearheading this because she is not rising in a vacuum. Her generation is with her and they are going to feel the opening acts of more painful consequences in their lifetimes and you can almost feel that this generation intuits this.... they know it..... there is substance to this movement. I feel it also.

We should never never under estimate the young generations....


This massive activism has other background than some posters believe.
We all know that kids and teenagers don't like to go to school and they will seek any possible excuse to evade it, if there is a chance.
Teachers also are tired with kids and they are quietly happy with a break, particularly if their pay is not affected.

So Greta have found an excuse not to attend school on Friday because of climate change - surely her message is heard and millions follow, if only to have a longer weekend.
Now another kid may make a similar excuse and not attend school on Thursday to protest against all wars on the Earth and millions will follow.
Yet another kid will whine about women and LGBTQ rights and refuse to go to school on Wednesday. Millions will follow again.
Yet another kid will protest against exploitation of 3rd World labor and poor living conditions there and refuse to attend school on Tuesday. Millions will surely join in.
Finally teachers will protest that Monday alone is not enough to teach children all required subjects and will refuse to work on this day in yet another protest.

As it can easily be seen this kind of activism can lead to abandoning schools entirely and contribute to creation of Era of the Stupid which we are entering anyway.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 06:12:52

Sounds a lot like the anti-war protests in the 60’s. “Hey, lets all get in a bus and get doped, and have a party in DC.”

I’m sure there were some very sincere protesters. The ones I met were like the above. But maybe that just says more about who I hung with. But I don’t thinks so.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 08:36:37

Plantagenet wrote:Greta at the White House telling Donald Trump to go on strike and join the global climate change movement


Well there's an exercise in futility for you.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 13:46:43

I’m truly disappointed Ted in Trump in this front. I had HOPED he actually got it and was just mouthing off the get elected. But that surely seems to not be the case. He’s a denier through and through. I guess it makes sense, Wharton MBA and all that.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 17:45:52

Speaking of Trump....

https://www.nrdc.org/experts/nrdc/trump ... xAO4I8mW2Y

Why would anyone even bother trying to reach through to him?

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 18 Sep 2019, 18:20:32

Ibon wrote:What is it that causes some of us to escape the consumption and debt trap? How did we avoid this and follow a different path?

I've thought on this some, for decades.

Well, for one thing, we are brought up in MASSIVELY different ways re values and inputs. And almost all of that is luck of the draw, re the values of our parents.

For Americans, I'm somewhere in the upper percent or two in terms of valuing frugality re lifestyle vs. relative wealth. Almost all of that comes from the input of my parents, who both experienced the Great Depression as children.

So that then informed things like my savings habits, my spending habits, what I read re saving and investing and lifestyle, and on and on.

And I don't think this is any more "virtuous" of me than it is "virtuous" that Micheal Jordon took his genes and became a great basketball player. Obviously he couldn't have done that with no effort and a diet of nothing but twinkies and coke -- but there's a reason he plays basketball several orders of magnitude better than I do, given how he dunks from the top of the key so easily, while my reach is a full hand shorter than most guys my 5'8", and I'm slow, and I can't jump for crap.

....

I (stupidly) thought that the Great Recession would be a wake-up call for many million Americans and lead to a lot more 70's style saving and investing instead of 00's style consumption. Based on what I read, that thinking lasted about 2 years for the vast majority, at most.

And so it goes.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 20 Sep 2019, 17:47:00

I'm just back from the global climate change strike here in central Alaska. About 300 people with about a dozen dogs turned up....thats a pretty good turnout for central Alaska. Some people had made signs, and a few of the dogs had signs taped to their sled dog-style harnesses. One sign on a dog read "Sled dogs not hot dogs."

The students organized everything themselves and lead the demonstration themselves.....there were no older people giving speeches or telling the students what to do. The students ran a tight ship----we met outside a high school, there were some very short speeches, and then we walked around chanting things like "Hey-Ho Climate Change has got to go" and "Sea Level is rising and so are we" and then we were done. The fact that it was 40° and raining might have had something to do with the brevity of the global climate strike here in central Alaska.

The global strike was designed to be led by young students. I was really impressed with this aspect of the protest. Older supporters were even instructed on how-to-stand-with-young-climate-strikers. My personal view is that this approach worked very well. These were the ultimate in "grass-roots" demonstrations as they sprung from students and they were run by students and mainly done by students. I participated in multiple demonstrations back when I was involved with the anti-war movement, but this was a totally different crowd. This was just a lot of sweet, nice kids and some older people worried about climate change.

I can't think of anything quite like this happening before....millions of students from all over the planet protesting together against climate change.

Cheers!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Fri 20 Sep 2019, 17:52:16

It's getting harder for younger generations to escape the debt trap, even when they want to.

Through high school, I earned scholarships that paid for most of my college. I went to the least expensive college that had my major of choice available in my area, which was still a very expensive private college, but less so than the cost would have been if I moved to a cheaper state school and had to pay for a dorm or other shelter.

I still ended up with significant debt when the tuition kept increasing, and my scholarships didn't. The alternative was to throw my scholarships away, drop out, and throw away a dream of getting into an engineering-related field in the electric vehicle industry, and instead relegate myself to being a burger flipper or a cash register jockey, or if I still had ambition, maybe selling dope.

While I scored an engineering job a year out of college after intense searching, it wasn't in the EV industry. I took the first job I could get out of fijnancial necessity, even though it wasn't what I wanted. Those student loans weren't going to pay themselves. Once I was in the field I "chose" out of financial necessity, I was stuck, and no one wanted to hire me for anything else outside that field, for anything. I tried, from 2008 to present. I spent my 20s paying the student loan off, having spent enough in interest payments alone to have bought a house, without the house to show for it.

Aside from medical debt(which I never agreed to but ended up having to pay it off anyway due to excessive profit taking by the "health"care industry), I never had debt of any other kind in my life. No credit cards. No car loans. No mortgage.

I also had a good job, and was frugal with my money to an extreme. I lived in a rathole in the hood split with roommates to save on rent. I rode a bicycle for transportation. I didn't use air conditioning. I rarely ate out and cooked meals at home and brown bagged meals to work. I still wear my old clothes from high school. Never had a smart phone plan. My first apartment, when I lived without roommates, I kept my electric usage under 100 kWh/mo. In general I lived a very low consumption lifestyle. Once taxes and student loans took their cut, even though I was making $60k/yr(more than about 80% of jobs paid at the time), I was lucky if I could set aside more than $1,500 a month for savings or for projects, which was a minority of the fairly sizable amount of money I made. A bike accident and the resulting medical expenses almost wiped me out, but I rebuilt some of the savings and avoided bankruptcy.

Right after I paid that student loan off and was about to finally be able to seriously start stacking money(I was already well on the way to saving for land), my mother, who was unable to walk or work, started getting preyed upon by family members who became drug addicts. Her savings got looted, junkies were staying at the house against her will, and she was about to lose her home. I had to quit my job and move back home to put a stop to it. In the process, most of my savings got exhausted in a combination of surviving and keeping the house out of foreclosure during the year and a half I've been out of work.

Well over 1,000 resumes/job applications have been sent in the meantime, and I still have no job. I did get a good paying work from home job last month, but the contract between the company who hired me and the utility they worked for got pulled soon after I finished my first assignment, so now I'm back to being jobless again. At least I got paid for that first assignment. I haven't just been applying to engineering jobs this entire time. I've been applying to crappy restaurant jobs, janitorial positions, grocery store positions, landscaping jobs, librarian jobs, anything I can get and avoid going broke and ending up homeless(been there before, long story). Some of the people I went to college with are also jobless, one of them also with an advanced degree who is currently homeless. One grocery store advertising open positions in my area had a job fair I went to early this year, and the line of people showing up was more than 1/8th of a mile long, in a supposedly "booming" economy with what is said to be less than 4% unemployment. Lots of boarded up former mom and pop businesses, homeless people, and abandoned buildings everywhere, but the big box stores are booming. LOTS of help wanted signs all over the place though on those businesses that are still operational, that stay up. I apply there and no one hires me, and when I call to inquire, they say the position has been filled, or that I'm overqualified, while the help wanted sign stays up weeks or months after. Rinse and repeat.

Still jobless. I can't put a gun to someone's head and force them to hire me.

I'm now in my mid 30s, still have almost nothing to show for all of my work, other than being debt free, a place I was at before even bothering with college. Almost everyone I know who has anything at all has way more debt than they do assets as they live paycheck to paycheck to hold onto it, and their assets are quite modest by 1980s standards(other than a smartphone or PC or two, which didn't exist back then. They drive junk heap cars that have to be taken to dishonest mechanics to pass inspection and live in falling apart properties they owe mortgages on in need of major repairs they can't afford that the city would condemn if they did an assessment, and truthfully, even this is beyond their means in spite of working 2 or more jobs).

I should have dropped out of high school and sold dope at this point. This is ridiculous. And older generations wonder why Millenials and Gen Y are so pissed off? Gee, you really wonder? There are consequences to a small percentage of the population hoarding all of the wealth for themselves, consuming most of the resources, and generating most of the climate change emissions. There's nothing left to go around for everyone else, who then get to suffer the consequences of the elite's gluttony.

The people who see consumerism all around them are living in a middle class bubble and generally can afford(or pretend to afford via debt) to participate. I stayed away from that scene when I had money, and am much better off for it, even though I have family members that urged me to go into it by getting a mortgage on a house in the suburbs, buying a new crossover, starting a family, or pursuing a masters degree, saying that I currently have next to nothing because it's my fault, and that I could have had everything that they have. It escapes them that on a net basis, I have more wealth than they do because I have no debt at all and a few meager assets, while their debt is greater than their assets, and they're chronically one missed paycheck, one job loss, one arrest, one medical emergency, one accident away from losing everything they worked for their whole lives. Had I taken their advice when I had a good job, I'd have lived paycheck to paycheck, probably never had any savings, never had any money at all to pursue projects, gone into a lifetime of debt, and would never have been in a position to help my mother.

That middle class bubble is going to pop sometime in the not too distant future. The weeping and the moaning and the gnashing of teeth is going to be fucking epic when this bubble is allowed to pop, as the working and middle classes' first world problems turn into third world problems, some of these third world problems which already existed for many of the bottom 50% living in the U.S.(I could tell you LOTS of stories about the struggles my roommates went through...), problems which the "liberal" media likes to pretend doesn't exist and which conservatives like to pass off as the result of proliferation of drugs and/or laziness.

The fact is, the recovery is a lie, and the "economy", if you can call it that, is not working for most people. Those living in their middle class bubbles, whether real or financed with debt, will not see this. They're too busy staring at their smart device and raising their families and swiping those credit cards. I made $60k a year and lived within my means, and let me tell you, in modern America, it does not go very far. My dad as a janitor making minimum wage in 1970 was able to afford more than I was in the 2010s making $60k/yr but saddled with student loan debt. Let that sink in for a minute.

As this goes on, the rich keep getting richer, and keep consuming more and more and more... The Al Gores of the world will put out more greenhouse gas emissions heating their pool for a weekend party or joyriding their yacht for a quick trip than Joe Sixpack living in a McMansion and driving an SUV will use all year, and Joe Sixpack is fucking wasteful enough as it is, using debt to borrow resources from the future.

Meanwhile, all of this debt is printed up out of thin air by the banksters, debt that they never had to put any of their assets on the line to loan out, while working people have to pay it back with money they earn. It's not sustainable. The more people get pissed off, the better. It's time to overthrow these fuckers composing the power elite, as they are the driving force of most of the problem. Without the fiat debt ponzi scheme to support it, everything collapses. All of the wasteful resource consumption, the borrowing from the future, the domestic police state being built around us, the system of economic slavery we live under, and perhaps even the climate change it is driving, all collapses. Better sooner than later.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 21 Sep 2019, 00:30:06

Well put, TTc. Thanks for chiming in. And...hang in there, buddy!
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 21 Sep 2019, 07:12:10

Toecutter,

I hear your story and I feel for you. I’m 68 and worked in electrical engineering, mostly maintenance and construction. And there was a time when I desperately needed to CHANGE jobs and I had sent out hundreds of resumes over about a 14 month period before I got taken on. And that sucked. But once I made that change all my subsequent changes were made with a single phone call.

I repeat this story because I think it presents a ray of hope. In my case I was able to move into a position where I was then able to network and build my reputation. I had a couple of companies go out from under me so I had some anxious times.

I don’t know maybe something will eventually break for you as well. I hope so.

In the meantime remember Churchill’s words: “When going through hell keep going.”
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