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Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 16:55:13

That is true. But what if the cheapest available option is actually LOCAL?
Do you think in that case the company would still go to china?


Apparently you slept through the math class that dealt in logic. You were arguing that the reason you bought plastics from the US was because the tariff made it cheaper than China. As I said tariffs are just taxes that the US population has to pay through increased prices. Paying more in the US than you would in China sans tariffs makes no sense whatsoever.

I have seen many documentaries though, about workers having to handle poisonous materials. About workers who got insured on the job, and all those things. Do you think it was all fake? Do you think there are no poor girls in India making t-shirts for western nations, under atrocious conditions?


As I pointed out the largest US industries that outsource to China are not having cheap tshirts manufactured in sweatshops, they have modernized factories and highly skilled labor building chips and high tech components.

Maybe you think these working conditions are “atrocious”?

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No this is where you're WRONG. Saving the world is not only good for me, but also for you. Because I think you also live on earth, aren't you?


Don’t be a dufus….you aren’t “saving the world” by buying plastics, but you certainly have the market cornered on sanctimony.

Who is talking about loosing money? Companies made lots of money way before globalization was a thing.


Globalization became a “thing” because costs were rising rapidly in the US and profits were dropping. Manufacturers can’t keep turning those costs over to the consumer in terms of higher prices as they just stop buying or instead they buy from another country. By outsourcing US companies were able to compete with foreign competitors and maintain their market share. Not sure how you stay in business without understanding this.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 17:18:01

mousepad wrote:
Newfie wrote:Mousepad,

Sorry, I lost the thread of your argument. What point are you trying to prove with your question?


It was in response to toecutter and his "rich are all greedy can-never-get-enough bastards" vs "poor are content, happy do-good-ers". I wanted to make a point that poors are nothing but rich who didn't yet get a chance to grab their "fair share". But then again, maybe I missed his point completely. I admit I just skimmed over his manifesto, latching on to some keywords. 8)


OK, thank you for clarifying. That skimming thing I can understand, a lot of missives going on here. Not really suited to this format.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 17:20:02

mousepad wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:why companies went overseas in the first place....that is good business.


That's true. It might be good business. But good business doesn't mean good planet, good life, good environment, fair society.
I'm in favor of producing goods where they are consumed, as local as possible.
I'm in favor of having goods manufactured by people that enjoy the same work benefits, protection, chance of retirement and rights as the ones consuming them.

Outsourcing dirty, dangerous work to 3rd world and exploiting the 3rd world is not something I believe is right.

That's why I'm so happy that we can source locally. And who knows? Maybe automation drives the cost down to under Chinese levels? Or even better, maybe INCREASED costs will result in consumers buying LESS of the product. Because consuming LESS is absolutely positively the best for the planet. Don't you agree?

I think saving earth from ourselves is more important than getting a plastic product a few cents cheaper.


Good points.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 17:26:38

rockdoc123 wrote: Paying more in the US than you would in China sans tariffs makes no sense whatsoever.

That is a good point. But is it true?
There's many things we pay more for, for the sake of some desirable goal.

For example it costs consumers money to dispose of old tires properly. Wouldn't it make more sense to just burn them in the backyard? Do you burn old tires in the backyard?
Or do you think it's worthwhile to pay a little extra to have tires disposed of properly?
Do you think it's worthwhile to pay a little extra so plastic trash doesn't end up in the pacific?
What about a local economy and local jobs? Do you think it's worthwhile to pay a little extra to have a thriving local economy? Or do you think it's better to have a few large companies manufacturing in china, then having to pay taxes to support welfare for the out-of-job locals to be able to buy the stuff the companies make?

Maybe you think these working conditions are “atrocious”?

No. Those are fine working conditions.
The news where foxconn workers (apple contractor) killed themselves because of working conditions must have been fake.

but you certainly have the market cornered on sanctimony.

Thank you. I admit, I'm a sucker for compliments.

instead they buy from another country.

But what if buying from another country is not an option. If you need a hammer and the only option is 5 different choices of hammers made in the US. Would you not buy a hammer then? Would you rather sleep in the outdoors instead of buying a hammer from a US manufacturer to be able to build your house?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 18:01:30

For example, it costs consumers money to dispose of old tires properly. Wouldn't it make more sense to just burn them in the backyard? Do you burn old tires in the backyard?


Where I come from you can recycle them for free. And burning them results in thick ugly smoke that nobody wants in their backyard ( or has bothered doing for about 60 years)….this is hardly the same thing as paying more money in the US for products you can get cheaper from China with the same quality (or sometimes better). Your logic makes no sense whatsoever.

But what if buying from another country is not an option. If you need a hammer and the only option is 5 different choices of hammers made in the US. Would you not buy a hammer then? Would you rather sleep in the outdoors instead of buying a hammer from a US manufacturer to be able to build your house?


Once again you are all over the place with your logic. You were arguing that plastic was cheaper in the US because of tariffs. Without the tariffs it is cheaper to manufacture in China and hence that should be the choice. There is an option to buy from China and it would make great sense without the tariffs. This is not the same thing whatsoever as not having a cheaper choice. The best choice is to get rid of the tariffs, let companies compete and lower costs which translate into less expensive goods for the consumer. If you were arguing to your CEO that he should pay more for necessary goods because it helps the US economy I suspect you would be looking for a new job pretty quickly.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 18:05:06

Newfie wrote:Does Greta contemplate these scenarios?


I don't think Greta contemplates very much.
She's too young, still lacking in education, lacking in life experience.
I think Greta is a mouthpiece for her parents, a good daughter trying to please her parents.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 18:24:43

rockdoc123 wrote:Where I come from you can recycle them for free.

Are you sure? My feeling is it's only free because it's subsidized by your generous county/state.
Recycling old tires is never free. The best you can hope for is to incinerate them in suitable plants, like cement factories for example, given that they are quipped with sufficient filter systems.

Do you think it's good to subsidize/force things to steer behavior? Or should the raw market do what it does?

The best choice is to get rid of the tariffs, let companies compete and lower costs which translate into less expensive goods for the consumer.

No, I'm very sorry, but you are wrong. The best choice is to provide a LEVEL playing ground and let companies compete on a LEVEL playing ground.
You see, requiring US companies to pay worker's comp, health insurance, 401k matching, social security taxes, unemployment taxes, while following environmental and safety regulations, while the sweat shop in Manila does nothing of this is not a LEVEL playing field.

Don't you also want a level playing field? Did you ever play soccer or football? Then you must know that a level playing field is very important.

If you were arguing to your CEO that he should pay more for necessary goods because it helps the US economy I suspect you would be looking for a new job pretty quickly.


That's true. But what if the playing field is such that the cheapest option is the local option? Wouldn't that be great?
Good thing Trump made this happen. The cheapest option now is to source plastics from a local company, where it used to be a chinese supplier.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 19:16:03

Wiki is our friend.


In most of the United States, a fee is included in every new tire that is sold. Fees can be collected by states, importers, and sellers, the latter being the most common case. These fees are collected to help support tire-recycling programs throughout the states. State tire-recycling programs are created to reduce the amount of scrap tires in stockpiles. The table below shows the tire fees in each state:



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tire_re ... ted_States
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 19:52:40

No, I'm very sorry, but you are wrong. The best choice is to provide a LEVEL playing ground and let companies compete on a LEVEL playing ground.


wrongo chump. A LEVEL playing ground is one in which everyone competes for the same contracts with nothing to give them an advantage. The tariffs are exactly that, an attempt to give uncompetitive companies a leg up. Why should companies that can't compete on a world wide basis be rewarded? Why should the consumer or tax payer have to pay for that?

Don't you also want a level playing field? Did you ever play soccer or football? Then you must know that a level playing field is very important.


are you a moron? Enough with the school teacher patronization.

That's true. But what if the playing field is such that the cheapest option is the local option? Wouldn't that be great?
Good thing Trump made this happen.


OK, apparently English is a second language for you or you are seriously lacking in basic comprehension skills. As I said several times the only reason it seems cheaper is because of the tariff, without the tariff China is the cheaper option. Who is paying for that? It is the consumer, it isn't cheaper in reality just in the manipulated world of aggressive tariffs.
It is pretty clear you don't know you don't understand the concept so just please stop.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 21:48:06

mousepad wrote:You would be surprised how fast patriotism and tolerance go out the window once growth is below expectations.


Really? Mao managed to starve lots of his people during the Great Leap Forward without suffering an uprising. What's measly "growth below expectations" gonna accomplish?

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 10:43:53

China and India posts moved here

china-india-future-implications-t77248.html
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 12:23:33

rockdoc123 wrote:wrongo chump. A LEVEL playing ground is one in which everyone competes for the same contracts with nothing to give them an advantage.


EXACTLY !! Finally you seem to understand the issue at hand.

The problem is, that many an aspiring nation have tremendous advantages. Like not having to follow stringent and expensive environmental and safety regulations. Or not having to pay huge amounts into required-by-law employee benefits. Do you enjoy the benefits guaranteed to you by law? Like unemployment benefits, like worker's comp, and may other worker rights? Do you think those things are free?

OK, apparently English is a second language for you

Yes it is. Out of curiosity, what gave it away?

Who is paying for that?

Money seems to be all you care about. You're preoccupied by having to pay a little more for plastic. You prefer to throw working people under the bus just so you can get your gadgets a tad cheaper. Man, you're cheap. But let me guess, once it's up to renegotiate your technical advisory contracts you demand your 250k/yr. Because you DESERVE it, right?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 14:20:28

Money seems to be all you care about. You're preoccupied by having to pay a little more for plastic. You prefer to throw working people under the bus just so you can get your gadgets a tad cheaper. Man, you're cheap. But let me guess, once it's up to renegotiate your technical advisory contracts you demand your 250k/yr. Because you DESERVE it, right?


please take your socialist "I want everything and don't want to work for it" attitude and kindly place it where the sun doesn't shine. If companies didn't seek profits there would be none. You would have no cell phone nor computer to spout your "I want to live in a communist state" viewpoint.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Doesn't work that way. My guess is you are the first to complain when the price on goods rise and likely want to blame the 1% for making profits.

And you are completely full of crap with regards to overseas locations being cheaper because they skimp on safety and human rights. I've actually managed groups in SE Asia and the Middle East. The safety and environmental standards employed by large companies in these jurisdictions are not "whatever you can get away with" they are "industry standard". In the case of the oil industry, those are standards set in Norway, UK and Lousiana which are the highest out there. Salaries are often lower because on average that is what the going rate is. By contract (in any given country as a foreign company) you cannot pay salaries that are wildly out of whack with what the government sees as being reasonable. Overall operating costs are also lower as these countries have not undergone the crazy wage inflation that has happened in North America, partly due to union influence. My suggestion is to go and live in one of these countries and work there before you make imaginary claims. The biggest companies that offshore in China are Apple, IBM and Cisco and their working conditions are easily on par with anything in the US.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 15:20:35

rockdoc123 wrote:please take your socialist "I want everything and don't want to work for it" attitude

where is that come from?
I'm sorry but I have to ask. Could it be that english is not your first language? You don't seem to understand much.
You're mixing up a lot of arguments, flip-flopping between this and that.
On subject like this we have to stay lazer focused on topic. You see, when we discuss buying from 3rd world you cannot come in and simply bring up Norway as an counter example. Norway is not 3rd world.

You would have no cell phone nor computer

Oh my gosh. That would be the end of my life. No cell phone. Lived without one for half of my life. I wonder how I managed. But since we cannot go back in time to look at an alternative unverse, I guess we will never know.
Maybe we would have BETTER cell phones and QUANTUM computers by now.

The biggest companies that offshore in China are Apple, IBM and Cisco and their working conditions are easily on par with anything in the US.

Yes I know, that's why foxconn employees are jumping themselves to death.
Did you know that manufacturing LCD displays uses nasty chemicals and that many a woman working at the Samsung plant get cancer at a young age?

You might be a great oil lackey, but you're deficient in what we call holistic thinking. That's thinking beyond simple $$ numbers. Not everything that's cheaper is better for the world/nation/yourself. There's pros and cons to everything.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 16:25:28

On subject like this we have to stay lazer focused on topic. You see, when we discuss buying from 3rd world you cannot come in and simply bring up Norway as an counter example. Norway is not 3rd world.


Look moron....Norway was mentioned simply because the standards for safety and environment that are applied there are the highest anywhere and hence are used by large companies world wide. As I said, reading comprehension is apparently beyond you.

But since we cannot go back in time to look at an alternative unverse, I guess we will never know.
Maybe we would have BETTER cell phones and QUANTUM computers by now.


exactly how thick are you? If there is no incentive for companies to do business (you don't want them to maximize profits...i.e. socialist leanings) then they aren't going to build you anything. The world does not exist to make you happy, though apparently you seem to think so.

Did you know that manufacturing LCD displays uses nasty chemicals and that many a woman working at the Samsung plant get cancer at a young age?


so exactly how would that be any different manufacturing those identical LCD displays in the US? As with everything else you have spouted here it is completely lacking in any logic whatsoever. The pictures I posted were taken from the IBM and Cisco operations in China. They are easily on par to anything I've seen in the US which isn't surprising as they were built to IBM and Cisco US standards.

You might be a great oil lackey, but you're deficient in what we call holistic thinking. That's thinking beyond simple $$ numbers


You clearly have never run a business nor been at a management position in any successful business. Those businesses that are actually successful have made your lifestyle possible, allowing you to babble on about "holistic thinking" rather than having to worry about basic survival. You should probably look up the term "ungrateful" as you learn the language.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 16:26:04

mousepad wrote:Did you know that manufacturing LCD displays uses nasty chemicals and that many a woman working at the Samsung plant get cancer at a young age?

Any scientific references to this or just a casual remark?
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 16:30:41

rockdoc123 wrote:exactly how thick are you? If there is no incentive for companies to do business (you don't want them to maximize profits...i.e. socialist leanings) then they aren't going to build you anything. The world does not exist to make you happy, though apparently you seem to think so.

Soviet companies (which were not maximizing profit) were building a lot of things.
They have even built the biggest nuke ever detonated on the world...
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 17:00:35

rockdoc123 wrote:
But since we cannot go back in time to look at an alternative unverse, I guess we will never know.
Maybe we would have BETTER cell phones and QUANTUM computers by now.


exactly how thick are you? If there is no incentive for companies to do business (you don't want them to maximize profits...i.e. socialist leanings) then they aren't going to build you anything.


That is correct. IF there is NO incentive for companies to do business then they aren't going to build anything.
But what IF the playing field is properly constrained?
You know, for example, if big mining/oil companies operating in 3rd world or even Alberta couldn't dump their shit where they please?
What if things like that can't be done anymore? Do you think that big oil would simply throw up their hands and walk away? Or do you think that this might increase the cost of raw material very little due to proper cleanup operation. Do you think this would so drastically lower business incentive to make it unfeasible?

The pictures I posted were taken from the IBM and Cisco operations in China. They are easily on par to anything I've seen in the US which isn't surprising as they were built to IBM and Cisco US standards.

Yes great. But you realize that IBM and Cisco are not the only business in China, right? You realize that much of the consumer trash in the west come from no-name shops.
Funny story: I just visited suppliers in China. They talked about moving low level manufacturing to africa to cut costs. Do you think an american company contracting a chinese company contracting an african company in some jungle shop will have working conditions up to the standard of the West? You seem very naive if you believe that.

You clearly have never run a business nor been at a management position in any successful business.

Wrong again. Actually I'm hiring a bunch of engineers, right now. And all get western salary hired in western nations.
I also have an opening for a janitor. I think you might be a good fit.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby mousepad » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 17:03:10

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
mousepad wrote:Did you know that manufacturing LCD displays uses nasty chemicals and that many a woman working at the Samsung plant get cancer at a young age?

Any scientific references to this or just a casual remark?


More than casual remark, but less than scientific. I have seen it in a documentary on german TV.
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Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 29 Oct 2019, 18:17:21

You know, for example, if big mining/oil companies operating in 3rd world or even Alberta couldn't dump their shit where they please
?

They can’t you moron. Companies have been improving environmental reclamation and safety issues continuously for decades. Rather than fantasizing about what is happening you might actually educate yourself regarding the facts.

Yes great. But you realize that IBM and Cisco are not the only business in China, right? You realize that much of the consumer trash in the west come from no-name shops.


Once again your logic is completely missing. You were arguing about tariffs against China being a good thing. The main companies impacted by those tariffs are the ones I mentioned, they produce the most in China. If they were forced to produce in the US the cost of computer chips and cellphones would rise significantly to the point where those companies could not compete with companies that are based in China.

Wrong again. Actually I'm hiring a bunch of engineers, right now. And all get western salary hired in western nations.
I also have an opening for a janitor. I think you might be a good fit.


You’re an idiot or just illiterate. I was clearly speaking about salaries paid not to expats but to nationals, there is a significant difference and if you think they are the same then the chances of you being in a position to hire anyone for international work is pretty slim. I’ve been an executive and Board member at a number of oil and gas companies over the years and have dealt with the contracts that are signed with governments and local companies. In countries throughout SE Asia, Latin America and the Middle East you are contractually obligated to pay salaries to Nationals that are commensurate with the salary base in the country. This is specifically to avoid lopsided pay scales and runaway inflation. Once again, educate yourself before spouting off about something you know nothing about.
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