Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:24:01

Given her level of interest in the subject matter, it is both plausible and possible that she has.


complete and utter BS. Have you actually read any of the peer-reviewed literature? I certainly have and with a strong earth science background, experience in multi-variate statistics and a few decades of having read countless papers from journals it is tough sledding and some of the advanced math applied is beyond me even though I taught advanced rock mechanics involving tensor transforms and other applications of quadratics and matrix algebra at University. There is no way whatsoever that someone with a grade 7 education and being homeschooled by out of work actors could make sense of the abstracts in 90% of these papers. Anyone who tells you they can do this are completely full of it. But nice fantasy.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7489
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby dissident » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 17:58:54

rockdoc123 wrote:
Given her level of interest in the subject matter, it is both plausible and possible that she has.


complete and utter BS. Have you actually read any of the peer-reviewed literature? I certainly have and with a strong earth science background, experience in multi-variate statistics and a few decades of having read countless papers from journals it is tough sledding and some of the advanced math applied is beyond me even though I taught advanced rock mechanics involving tensor transforms and other applications of quadratics and matrix algebra at University. There is no way whatsoever that someone with a grade 7 education and being homeschooled by out of work actors could make sense of the abstracts in 90% of these papers. Anyone who tells you they can do this are completely full of it. But nice fantasy.


+10^6
dissident
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5716
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 19:12:00

Greta Thunberg hailed in National Catholic Reporter as a modern Advent Prophet

Image

greta-thunberg-prophet-advent

People certainly have had strong reactions to Greta Thunberg and her message, both positive and negative. If nothing else she brought huge amounts of media attention onto the issue of global climate change and exactly what our political leaders should be doing in response to it.

Cheers!
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 23011
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 19:51:02

Good grief... get a life.
Image
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7489
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 21:30:28

The two faces of climate activism. A former bartender AOC and a high school drop out Greta. Pretty much says it all.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13202
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 21:56:37

Cog wrote:The two faces of climate activism. A former bartender AOC and a high school drop out Greta. Pretty much says it all.


Political activists tend to be on the fringe.....for both sides.

IMHO the ranks of Climate change denialists include some kooky characters as well.

Image
Cheers! :)
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 23011
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 23:14:49

I've been busy for the last week, and haven't been able to follow every post in this thread. But I do notice a curious thing....some people are trying to discredit Greta by denouncing her for not being a scientist.

But Greta never claimed to be a scientist. Greta is a 16 year old climate change activist----not a climate change scientist.

Greta's main message is that people----especially people who run things in governments or at the UN------should listen to the people who actually are scientists.

teen-climate-activist-says-listen-to-the-scientists

Greta has been a very very successful climate change activist. In a bit over a year she inspired and helped organized global student protests against climate change. She's spoken at UN headquarters, at two UN COP meetings, and at numerous local demonstrations in Europe and North America protesting climate change.

Personally, I've never before seen a single person inspire a global movement like Greta has.

Image
One of the many many demos protesting climate change inspired by Greta Thunberg

Cheers!
"Our house is on fire" Greta Thunberg, 12/28/19

"The people in power should listen.....its them I'm criticizing" Greta Thunberg, 12/4/19
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 23011
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 01:12:20

rockdoc123 wrote:
complete and utter BS. Have you actually read any of the peer-reviewed literature?


https://www.ipcc.ch/site/assets/uploads/2018/02/WG1_TAR-FRONT.pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1gFp6Ioo3akMlIwc1V1R3NTNXc/view

For the most part, the above two studies could be understood. I didn't delve into all the intricacies and mathematics and scrutinize all the sources present(and many of them are locked behind paywalls anyhow), but the writing is not difficult for me to understand.

I certainly have and with a strong earth science background, experience in multi-variate statistics and a few decades of having read countless papers from journals it is tough sledding and some of the advanced math applied is beyond me even though I taught advanced rock mechanics involving tensor transforms and other applications of quadratics and matrix algebra at University.


I respect your experience. I also respect your opinion even if I disagree with it greatly, even in spite of your complete lack of respect for mine. I've never been introduced to tensor transforms so I looked them up and the math is quite interesting. The matrices involved can become extremely large and are generally only possible to solve using computers on any problem of a practical scope.

There is no way whatsoever that someone with a grade 7 education and being homeschooled by out of work actors could make sense of the abstracts in 90% of these papers.


Most of the time one doesn't need to understand linear algebra, how to use LaPlace tables, concepts such as Bernoulli distributions and confidence intervals, Lagrange multipliers, Eigenvalues/Eigenvectors, and the like to understand the abstract of a scientific paper. It is usually within the methodology and not the abstract of such papers where the math can become onerous. I'm not going to argue that Greta understands the math behind this, as most likely she doesn't. But it is not far fetched to consider that she is capable of understanding the summaries and conclusions that the math was used to formulate, especially in the event that she has a basic level of scientific literacy, something that most Americans do not possess. And even if she actually did understand the math, she would be far from the first person her age to do so anyhow.

For the record, I'm very much open to the idea that she's being used as a puppet to push an agenda. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes in our society that we are never privvy to.
Last edited by The_Toecutter on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 01:27:02, edited 1 time in total.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
User avatar
The_Toecutter
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1975
Joined: Sat 18 Jun 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby aspera » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 01:22:40

Cog wrote:... a high school drop out Greta.

When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of education
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

-Paul Simon

Although it's not hidden from sight, the climate crisis writing on the wall does seems to be more easily read by younger folks these days.

And, of course, the fact appears to be that she is taking time off school, not dropping out.
Wikipedia: In July 2019, Time magazine reported Thunberg was taking a "sabbatical year" from school, intending to travel in the Americas while meeting people from the climate movement.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greta_Thunberg
Oceans rise, empires fall. - Apocalypse Lullaby, Wailin' Jennys.
Plant a garden. Soon.
User avatar
aspera
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon 28 Jul 2014, 16:22:49
Location: Lakeland Republic

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EdwinSm » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 02:07:24

While there are rail links that could get her to next year's meeting in Glasgow, wouldn't it be wonderful if she would sail across the North Sea in a replica Viking longboat? :-D :-D :-D


About dropping out of school. My wife dropped out of school at 16, but then was able to get her first degree through the UK Open University, and then many years later got a Masters degree and was accepted to a PhD programme - so the negative arguments about Greta dropping out of school have a very hollow ring.
EdwinSm
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Thu 07 Jun 2012, 03:23:59

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 06:59:05

Cog wrote:The two faces of climate activism. A former bartender AOC and a high school drop out Greta. Pretty much says it all.


I tend to agree with your opinions (not vitriol) on CC ACTIVISM. AOC and her ilk don’t seem to truly understand CC but are using it to push other purposes. But likewise there are others who engage them with their own counter activism; mostly anti-Socialisim. These two parties, with their over wrought and strident wailing have almost completely drowned out any intelligent CC conversation.

Interestingly I’ve been reading “Thinking: Fast and Slow” by a psychologist who has received a Nobel in Economist for research improving economics basic premise of how humans make economic decisions. His take on the climate change discussion is that there is very little to be done to convince one side of the other, you either believe or do not because of your personal bias, which “tribe” you belong to.

That is not good news for either side because it means we are all pissing in the wind. This gentleman’s research has been replicated and expanded and is not in serious doubt. It shows that we each have certain built in bias, much of it is common from person to person. These bias cause is to select not so much based upon careful analysis but in common inherited trends. It’s not that humans institutions can not overcome these bias’ but it takes adherence to procedure to do so. As individuals we do not have these safe guards.

And this is where we are with certain debates; CC, abortion, gun control, they excite our gut level and inner sense of risk aversion. Are you safer with or without a gun? And those are strong forces not easily swayed.

Same with the CC debate. How it has been presented to us, how we first came to the discussion likely biased us to favor or disfavor the position. And now we are individually stuck in those positions. Moving folks out of those positions is going to be nearly impossible.

And of course folks like AOC do nothing to improve the situation. :(
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 12:40:57

For the most part, the above two studies could be understood. I didn't delve into all the intricacies and mathematics and scrutinize all the sources present(and many of them are locked behind paywalls anyhow), but the writing is not difficult for me to understand.


As I have said countless times on this forum and as has been pointed out by many of the hundreds of authors in the various Working Groups the Summary for Policymakers is quite misleading. It suggests many things as being confirmed which in the actual WG1 working papers is shown to have a wide range of viewpoints. In the past I've pointed out a number of statements that completely disagree with what is presented in the actual Working Group chapters. Working Group studies are generally based on a massive amount of literature. The actual math/stats are not presented as they are summarizing conclusions from papers, not reviewing the actual analyses. The modeling section is one of the few where independent work is presented but the background for all of the modeling work also resides in the papers they reference. Quoting the Summary for Policymakers indicates a complete lack of either understanding or desire to understand the underlying science and the potential errors. This has been discussed at length by various scientists ever since AG4. I would guess based on the nonsense that Greta spews she isn't even aware of the documents let alone what they state or the uncertainties.

 I've never been introduced to tensor transforms so I looked them up and the math is quite interesting. The matrices involved can become extremely large and are generally only possible to solve using computers on any problem of a practical scope.


And yet there we were building bridges using tensor transforms and slide rules to determine net stress and strain on beams and pillars 30 some years ago when there were no PC’s and the mainframes accessible had computing power equivalent to a modern ipad. This is where the rubber hits the road. It is the difference between having an intimate understanding of a particular subject and having had a cursory look at it and saying….well someone else will calculate that…or I can do that with my laptop. The former is an expert, the latter likes to think they are an expert. Without a deep understanding of the subject matter, you are merely taking people's statements on the subject at face value, trusting that they aren't doing the same thing or don't have an ulterior motive.

But as Cog points out it is very clear what Greta's handlers goal is, demonstrated in a quote from her that could just as easily come from Extinction Rebellion or Maurice Strong so many years ago.

After all, the climate crisis is not just about the environment. It is a crisis of human rights, of justice, and of political will. Colonial, racist, and patriarchal systems of oppression have created and fueled it.


Add to that the statement about putting government reps up against the wall and it's pretty clear this is about redistribution of wealth, pure and simple. No doubt the reason the conspiracy theory folks have been linking this whole theatre of the absurd to George Soros and his cult of followers.

But keep it up with the very unsettling hero worship of a 16-year-old girl. :roll:
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7489
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 14:09:11

Does anyone really believe that if we don't make radical societal changes to reduce fossil fuel use in the next eleven years, that we are all going to die? Climate science doesn't say anything close to that conclusion
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13202
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 14:23:49

Cog,

Yes that was a very poorly framed statement to put it in its most kind light.

But why are you bringing it up? AOC is an idiot or a disingenuous person of both.

What she or folks of her ilk (far too many for my taste) should not reflect on the realities of climate science.

Suppose she said “We have 11 years before all the ground water dries up and we go extinct.” Would you then argue there is no issue with ground water over usage? Of course not, it’s undeniable that SOMETIME in the future ground water depletion will be a major issue.

It’s the same thing. Yeah CC is gonna be a big problem and we should do something about it as well as ground water, soil depletion, immigration, and a host of other issues.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 14:36:14

Newfie
I think where all this started was back when I made a comment that Greta and her ilk are doing more harm than good in making strides in understanding and dealing with climate change issues

A great comment by Judith Curry directed at Extinction rebellion and other enviroradical groups:

JC message to Extinction Rebellion and other doomsters: Not only do you know nothing about climate change, you also appear to know nothing of history. You are your own worst enemy — you are triggering a global backlash against doing anything sensible about protecting our environment or reducing our vulnerability to extreme weather. You are making young people miserable, who haven’t yet experienced enough of life to place this nonsense in context.
User avatar
rockdoc123
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7489
Joined: Mon 16 May 2005, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 15:15:45

Yes, I do believe that is true and I’ve said as much since AOC first announced the Green New Deal. That is one issue.

The other issue is that humanity is changing the planet in ways that will make it impossible for humanity to continue in the manner to which we have become accustomed. We are forcing an adjustment in a variety of fronts. I think it takes a pretty callous person to see the good in dumping plastics into the ocean. Yet we do it, with great vigor.

So there are these groups of people for whom the social environment is everything, who can’t see beyond their narrow value set. We should not let them, no matter how excited they are, influence our decisions.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13672
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 16:47:16

Cog wrote:Does anyone really believe that if we don't make radical societal changes to reduce fossil fuel use in the next eleven years, that we are all going to die? Climate science doesn't say anything close to that conclusion

Each and every of us will die regardless of reducing fossil fuel use or not.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5894
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 20:44:29

Cog wrote:Does anyone really believe that if we don't make radical societal changes to reduce fossil fuel use in the next eleven years, that we are all going to die? Climate science doesn't say anything close to that conclusion


Climate science doesn't say that "everyone is going to die," but it has predicted various things are happening already (like higher temps and more forest fires and stronger hurricanes and tornadoes and expansion of desert zones and more floods and more rapid of the Arctic and Antarctic and less sea ice and extensive glacier melt and sea level rise). Going forward climate science predicts these effects will continue to intensify.

Global warming will be disruptive to the planetary climate system and concomitantly to human society.

And then the world will continue to get hotter. And even hotter.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
"Our house is on fire" Greta Thunberg, 12/28/19

"The people in power should listen.....its them I'm criticizing" Greta Thunberg, 12/4/19
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 23011
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby dissident » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 22:20:31

Cog wrote:Does anyone really believe that if we don't make radical societal changes to reduce fossil fuel use in the next eleven years, that we are all going to die? Climate science doesn't say anything close to that conclusion


That is why the hysteria that G. Thunberg is helping generate is defeating any real mitigation and change of course. It is pure theater that is not going to have any constructive results. G. Thunberg is discrediting climate science. She and her backers are not qualified to pass any sort of judgement on the subject.

But society loves to short circuit itself with such theater.
dissident
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 5716
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Greta Thunberg's Voyage Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 19 Dec 2019, 14:06:37

dissident wrote: G. Thunberg is discrediting climate science. She and her backers are not qualified to pass any sort of judgement on the subject.....


?????

Thats not what the top scientific journal in the world says. NATURE says Greta Thunberg has done a great job in communicating on scientific issues. In fact, NATURE just named Greta Thunberg has been one of the most influential people in science in 2019:

prestigious-science-journal-names-greta-thunberg-to-top-10-most-influential-list

Image
Prestigous scienctific journal NATURE names Greta Thunberg one of 10 most influential people in Science for 2019

Cheers!
"Our house is on fire" Greta Thunberg, 12/28/19

"The people in power should listen.....its them I'm criticizing" Greta Thunberg, 12/4/19
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 23011
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests