[careinke]

I would also like to see changing SS payments to be the same for everyone, say $1 above whatever is determined to be the poverty level. Though the chances of that happening are very slim.

So you want seniors who worked hard their whole life to get subsistence payments on SS while you get a big fat military pension with free medical for life after how many years service?

Actually my recommendation was for a higher payment than most get now. As far as my retirement, that was a contract between me and the government. Are you advocating the government break that contract after I fulfilled my side of the bargain?

Go play with your Nazi symbols.

[vision-master]

I would also like to see changing SS payments to be the same for everyone, say $1 above whatever is determined to be the poverty level. Though the chances of that happening are very slim.

So you want seniors who worked hard their whole life to get subsistence payments on SS while you get a big fat military pension with free medical for life after how many years service?

Actually my recommendation was for a higher payment than most get now. As far as my retirement, that was a contract between me and the government. Are you advocating the government break that contract after I fulfilled my side of the bargain?

Go play with your Nazi symbols.

Look at what Governor Walker did with the teachers union in Wisconsin, he broke the contract between them and the government. Would this have happened under the (D's), NO!

[careinke]

Look at what Governor Walker did with the teachers union in Wisconsin, he broke the contract between them and the government. Would this have happened under the (D's), NO!

Your confusing me with a Republican.

[vision-master]

Look at what Governor Walker did with the teachers union in Wisconsin, he broke the contract between them and the government. Would this have happened under the (D's), NO!

Your confusing me with a Republican.

No, just being political.

[Plantagenet]

Sarah Palin just said that President obama should be IMPEACHED if he doesn't pay the VIG on the US debt.

Ms. Palin asserts that there is sufficient cash flow to the federal government to pay the VIG, even if the debt limit isn't raised.

Meanwhile President Obama says that he can't do anything---he is being victimized by the evil Rs who are holding him HOSTAGE!!!

Things are getting interesting now. Time to get out the POPCORN!!!.


Get the popcorn...things are getting interesting!

[dbruning]

17th is the deadline right? They are cutting is close, they dawdle too long and things may very well slip from whoever the guy is who plans to swoop in on the white horse to save the day.

There is a guy right?

right?

[vision-master]

Sarah Palin just said that President obama should be IMPEACHED if he doesn't pay the VIG on the US debt.

Ms. Palin asserts that there is sufficient cash flow to the federal government to pay the VIG, even if the debt limit isn't raised.

Meanwhile President Obama says that he can't do anything---he is being victimized by the evil Rs who are holding him HOSTAGE!!!

Things are getting interesting now. Time to get out the POPCORN!!!.


Get the popcorn...things are getting interesting!

Typical (R) nonsense. Pay the vets but not the seniors - lol

[Lore]

Sarah Palin just said that President obama should be IMPEACHED if he doesn't pay the VIG on the US debt.

Ms. Palin asserts that there is sufficient cash flow to the federal government to pay the VIG, even if the debt limit isn't raised.

Meanwhile President Obama says that he can't do anything---he is being victimized by the evil Rs who are holding him HOSTAGE!!!

Things are getting interesting now. Time to get out the POPCORN!!!.


Get the popcorn...things are getting interesting!

Who is Sara Palin, other then a foolish gadfly. She is well known not to exhibit much in the way of knowledge of government.

Section 4 of the 14th Amendment, requires the president not to put the validity of the public debt into question. If the debt ceiling is not raised in time, there will not be enough incoming revenues to pay for all of the government's bills when they come due. Here is the kicker, he has a constitutional obligation to prioritize incoming revenues to pay the public debt.

The problem is he must pay appropriated monies, but he cannot print new currency and he may not float new debt. The whole thing is a contradiction which would cause him to violate Section 4, then he has a constitutional duty to treat at least one of the laws as unconstitutional as applied to the current circumstances. Ultimately he is in a catch-22 situation.

My guess is that he would have to move on paying the obligations to save the US financial credit and prevent world economic disruption in the markets. There would certainly be calls for impeachment in going over the heads of Congressional authorization, but I doubt business or common sense would back it up.

[Plantagenet]

Section 4 of the 14th Amendment, requires the president not to put the validity of the public debt into question. If the debt ceiling is not raised in time, there will not be enough incoming revenues to pay for all of the government's bills when they come due. Here is the kicker, he has a constitutional obligation to prioritize incoming revenues to pay the public debt.

The problem is he must pay appropriated monies, but he cannot print new currency and he may not float new debt. The whole thing is a contradiction which would cause him to violate Section 4, then he has a constitutional duty to treat at least one of the laws as unconstitutional as applied to the current circumstances. Ultimately he is in a catch-22 situation.

My guess is that he would have to move on paying the obligations to save the US financial credit and prevent world economic disruption in the markets. There would certainly be calls for impeachment in going over the heads of Congressional authorization, but I doubt business or common sense would back it up.

Nice summary, Lore.

As it turns out your guess as to what Obama would do coincides exactly with Sarah Palin's notice to the President---pay the vig on the debt first.

Hopefully it won't come to that---lets all hope Obama finds a way to avoid that difficult situation.

[PrestonSturges]

What part of the Constitution puts all this on the presidents shoulders?

Although the president might do something, and it's not clear what, if Congress defaults.

First Constitutional crisis: Congress tries to abolish the legislative process by using the budget to make demands.

Second Constitutional crisis: Congress defaults on the debt.

Third Constitutional Crisis: Congress tries to impeach Obama for doing anything.

About then the government will be on permanent shutdown. You'll all get chance to use those MREs.

This seems to be the GOP's Reichstag Fire moment.

[Plantagenet]

There is no reason to eat MREs. Just head on down to your local grocery and stock up with whatever you want.

[PrestonSturges]

Ted Cruz is the son of Rafael Cruz, and they campaign together. Rafeal Cruz is a Texas pastor who directs Purifying Fire Ministries. Rafeal is a Dominionist, part of the New Apostolic Movement, which is dedicated to eliminating the US government and un-Biblical practices such as voting. Their vision is very much like the Taliban.

It's not your imagination - Ted has national support from people who want America destroyed.

[Plantagenet]

What part of the Constitution puts all this on the presidents shoulders?

Didn't you read Lore's excellent post above? Here...I'll reproduce it for you.

Lore wrote:
Section 4 of the 14th Amendment, requires the president not to put the validity of the public debt into question. If the debt ceiling is not raised in time, there will not be enough incoming revenues to pay for all of the government's bills when they come due. Here is the kicker, he has a constitutional obligation to prioritize incoming revenues to pay the public debt.

The problem is he must pay appropriated monies, but he cannot print new currency and he may not float new debt. The whole thing is a contradiction which would cause him to violate Section 4, then he has a constitutional duty to treat at least one of the laws as unconstitutional as applied to the current circumstances. Ultimately he is in a catch-22 situation.

My guess is that he would have to move on paying the obligations to save the US financial credit and prevent world economic disruption in the markets. There would certainly be calls for impeachment in going over the heads of Congressional authorization, but I doubt business or common sense would back it up.

[Lore]

I believe PrestonSturges covered that in his steps. What ends up here is that we are technically in default by not paying any outstanding obligations due.

People are not going to give a rip about vets when they get an IOU from the government on their SS, or walk into their doctor's office and see a sign that we are no longer accepting Medicare for payment. Palin can wave that flag all day.

[PrestonSturges]

The previous posts about the President's responsibility under the 14th Amendment is just a typical wingnut hoax.

Section 5 says it is Congress' responsibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

It does not say what the President can do, but it's pretty clear that a default is unconstitutional.

[Plantagenet]

Oh oh.

Fitch just put the USA on its watchlist for a credit downgrade.

[vision-master]

The previous posts about the President's responsibility under the 14th Amendment is just a typical wingnut hoax.

Section 5 says it is Congress' responsibility.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth ... nstitution

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

It does not say what the President can do, but it's pretty clear that a default is unconstitutional.

Greenspan just said on the telly, China will most likely be paid but not social security recipients.

Button down the hatches, it could get ugly, real ugly.

[Plantagenet]

Section 5 says it is Congress' responsibility.

Not really. Section 5 says Congress shall ENFORCE the preceding 4 sections of the 14th ammendment by passing appropriate legislation. But Congress itself doesn't do any of the things ennumerated in the 14th amendment. For instance, Congress doesn't write the checks to pay social security, or the army, or to pay the vig on our debt.

All those checks are written by the Treasury Department, which is part of the executive branch.

I think Lore is right on this one---its the president's responsibility to direct the Treasury Dept to write the checks to pay the vig on the national debt. If he fails to do so, then the US would default on its debt.

[careinke]

People are not going to give a rip about vets when they get an IOU from the government on their SS, or walk into their doctor's office and see a sign that we are no longer accepting Medicare for payment. Palin can wave that flag all day.

I agree. If it gets to that point, I would fully expect not to get my pension and am prepared for that. However, it would still be a major indicator for a financial collapse.

[Sixstrings]

Ted Cruz is the son of Rafael Cruz, and they campaign together. Rafeal Cruz is a Texas pastor who directs Purifying Fire Ministries. Rafeal is a Dominionist, part of the New Apostolic Movement, which is dedicated to eliminating the US government and un-Biblical practices such as voting. Their vision is very much like the Taliban.

It's not your imagination - Ted has national support from people who want America destroyed.

Oh my God, another one of these Dominionists? I didn't know that. All I know is I've seen some youtubes of Rafael preaching -- so much hate there, authoritarianism, with Cuban revolution sprinkled throughout.

The man is SPOOKY.

It's no wonder poor Ted is so messed up, and manchurian-candidate robot like. Look at who raised him, and is still right there controlling him.

"Purifying Fire" Ministries, holy sh*t, and this is who has shut down the federal gov, and he just had a secret meeting with house repubs in that restaurant basement. Boehner has totally lost control, Ted Cruz (a *senator*, he ain't even in the frickin' House) is in charge. We're on the verge of downgrade AGAIN, because of these SAME PEOPLE, AGAIN. On the verge of default. On the verge of old folks not getting SS checks, veterans getting their checks, Medicare shut down -- talk about black swans, think of the millions of mortgage payments and utility bills that won't get sent out the day after social security stops, and a million gov workers already on unpaid furlough.

It's economic catastrophe, and national emergency. These frickin' Republicans, they're going to wind up bringing on the martial law they've been so paranoid about! Idiots!