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Government Shutdown USA

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 16:38:45

Cog wrote:When someone calls me a racist Newfie, I'm not going to let that slide.


Then don’t. But don’t resort to talking trash either.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 16:49:50

This whole thing has gotten just silly.

It’s pretty clear to both sides that illegal immigration is an issue. I think is also clear to both sides that the wall is not the most effective deterrent.

Simply upholding existing laws and deporting those that have over stayed their visas would be a good place to start. Recognizing that “sanctuary cities” are in bold defiance of Federal law would be a good start.

Each side is holding out a SYMBOL, a flag, to ralley round.

We just demean ourselves when we allow the Madison Ave types to so completly control our emotions.

IMHO this shutdown has little to do with the Wall or immigration. It’s a power grab, a fight about image and prestige. It’s more about who will will in 2020, and control the future graft and appointments. It’s a war between two very similar parties. Like the War of the Roses, the only ones with a big stake are the elites. We peons are just cannon fodder.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Cog » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 16:52:40

False equivalency. Both sides are not for the same thing. One side, the Dems are for unrestricted illegal immigration and the other side, Republicans are not.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 17:54:13

Outcast_Searcher wrote:If the best you can do is spew the far right lies pretending like all, or even a huge proportion of illegals are rapists and murders:

.

Just how many rapes and murders by illegal aliens are exceptable to you?
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 18:42:27

Cog wrote:False equivalency. Both sides are not for the same thing. One side, the Dems are for unrestricted illegal immigration and the other side, Republicans are not.


That’s a minor side show, something to keep you distracted while they pick you pocket. Obama was deemed “Deporter in chief” during his term.

I understand that there is this strident rhetoric, much wailing and gnashing of teeth. And the extremes of each party are fighting mad. So you are reacting to the Madison Ave style framing of the problem. The underlying power structures won’t allow any such thing as an open border. It’s not in their interests. It’s just a symbol of the rhetoric. The same way Trump is using his big beautiful wall, it will never be built and if built maaintained or if built solve the problem. But is an image he can use to frame his power struggle.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 19:46:03

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:3) Pelosi's government shutdown is harming a great many people.

Spoken like a true partisan hack. Pretending Trump doesn't at least own a big chunk of the shutdown just isn't credible.

I'm a moderate and no fan of Pelosi OR Trump, BTW.


OS, what are you, like 12 years old? The Budget process is defined by LAW, specificly the Budget and Accounting Act of 1921. Step 1 is the POTUS submits a Budget Request. That happened in December 2018. Step 2 is that Congress debates the BR. There is no step 1.5, have a snit fit and shut down the government.

Pelosi didn't even wait for Trump's proposal to end the impasse. She refuses to even debate a Budget Resolution. I see this as 100% her fault. I am royally PO'd because I am a USCG veteran. The USCG doesn't get furloughed, they are expected to show up for work, provide search & rescue, inspect shipping, interdict smuggling, and maintain navigable waterways. They cannot quit or take another job, and their families did not get the January 15 paycheck.
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Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 19:58:16

IF Pelosi and the Ds won't support a wall or a fence on the border, maybe Trump could get them to at least agree to fund a speed bump.

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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Cog » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 20:48:05

I expect the Senate to pass their budget bill this week, which will include wall funding. Then it will go to the House for reconciliation. We will see how serious Pelosi is about re-opening the government.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Cog » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 23:30:44

I did not know that people like this actually existed. The problem is his vote counts just as much as mine. I took out the profanity. I posted a link to his twitter so you can see he is not alone in his mental illness concerning the wall.

https://twitter.com/TheRealCDK1/status/ ... 2395667457

This president has exacerbated my PTSD so much that in average I spend 3 out of 7 night sleeping in a closet with my dog. I cry, I shake, I get stuck in mental loops. *uck I'm in the closet now stuck in a loop. I'm stuck in a *ucking loop because of a *ucking racist wall.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby 2cher » Sun 20 Jan 2019, 23:54:55

It's amazing how little this place ever changes. A bunch of poor dumb fuckers attacking another group of poor dumb fuckers.

This is all just a fucking sideshow to keep you distracted while the rich fucking corporations enslave your dumb fucking asses.

The media has kept you constantly at each other's throats when in really there are only about three core issues separating the average republican from the average democrat. They want you to hate each other. It's in their interest.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby mmasters » Mon 21 Jan 2019, 00:10:10

Cog wrote:I did not know that people like this actually existed. The problem is his vote counts just as much as mine. I took out the profanity. I posted a link to his twitter so you can see he is not alone in his mental illness concerning the wall.

https://twitter.com/TheRealCDK1/status/ ... 2395667457

This president has exacerbated my PTSD so much that in average I spend 3 out of 7 night sleeping in a closet with my dog. I cry, I shake, I get stuck in mental loops. *uck I'm in the closet now stuck in a loop. I'm stuck in a *ucking loop because of a *ucking racist wall.

It amazes me too how fragile and dumb some people are.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 21 Jan 2019, 08:54:14

2cher wrote:It's amazing how little this place ever changes. A bunch of poor dumb fuckers attacking another group of poor dumb fuckers.

This is all just a fucking sideshow to keep you distracted while the rich fucking corporations enslave your dumb fucking asses.

The media has kept you constantly at each other's throats when in really there are only about three core issues separating the average republican from the average democrat. They want you to hate each other. It's in their interest.


Pretty much what I’ve been saying for a while, less the profanity.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 21 Jan 2019, 09:00:00

Cog wrote:I did not know that people like this actually existed. The problem is his vote counts just as much as mine. I took out the profanity. I posted a link to his twitter so you can see he is not alone in his mental illness concerning the wall.

https://twitter.com/TheRealCDK1/status/ ... 2395667457

This president has exacerbated my PTSD so much that in average I spend 3 out of 7 night sleeping in a closet with my dog. I cry, I shake, I get stuck in mental loops. *uck I'm in the closet now stuck in a loop. I'm stuck in a *ucking loop because of a *ucking racist wall.


Yes people like this exist and they vote. I know some of them. They look at us with as much wonderment as we look at them. Our world views are vastly different.

I suspect that in most cases these folks would be quaking and sniveling in a closet no matter what government was in place.

And I suspect some of us would be shaking our heads in disbelief. And we would be forcefully pushing an agenda that would make others uncomfortable, no matter what government was in place.

My in-house psychoanalyst (Wife) noted that ... to his credit, the poster recognizes his PTSD and is using the closet and dog as a coping mechanizing in order to not act out. Her point is he is aware of his problems and is making an effort to contain them.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby careinke » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 01:07:15

PTSD is a real, and serious problem usually caused by war trauma or horrifying physical trauma. I find it tragic that the Dims tactics of; fear mongering, unsubstantiated accusations, and constant leaking of false information has led to their own members contracting this horrible mental illness. Yea the republicans have tagged it Trump Derangement Syndrome (TDS), but it is really PTSD.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 04:30:45

Cog wrote:I expect the Senate to pass their budget bill this week, which will include wall funding. Then it will go to the House for reconciliation. We will see how serious Pelosi is about re-opening the government.

Agreed.

No doubt now that Trump has made a compromise offer (whether the dems like it or not), the ball is in the dem's court until they make a counter-offer. And they no longer can validly claim Trump "owns the shutdown", if he's willing to negotiate and they aren't.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 04:39:36

Plantagenet wrote:IF Pelosi and the Ds won't support a wall or a fence on the border, maybe Trump could get them to at least agree to fund a speed bump.

Image
You are now entering the United States. Please pick up your welfare application, housing subsidy, obamacare card and food stamps vouchers at your chosen destination. Membership in criminal gangs and drug cartels is optional.

Cheers!

Except, of course, the meme that illegal immigrants can quickly gain access to lots of government benefits is simply false.

I think we need to do something about the issue, but propogating false memes isn't helpful, especially when credible sources repeatedly debunk them.

(I simply googled "how soon can illegal aliens get government benefits" and got lots of hits showing how this meme just doesn't stand up to fact checking.

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fa ... -benefits/

Same with the false meme that illegal aliens are a pack of criminals.

For that one, I simply googled "are illegal aliens criminals".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... bfca69db54

Why spout such nonsense, when it's so easily shown to be false?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 07:34:56

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Same with the false meme that illegal aliens are a pack of criminals.

For that one, I simply googled "are illegal aliens criminals".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... bfca69db54

Why spout such nonsense, when it's so easily shown to be false?

And yet the facts are this.
The Bureau of Prisons is responsible for the custody and care of federal inmates. As of December 2017, BOP has custody of 38,132 known or suspected aliens. This represents approximately 21 percent of the total BOP population — meaning that one in five BOP inmates is an alien.

Of the 38,132 known or suspected aliens, approximately 66 percent were unlawfully present in the United States.

Some analysts charge that the reason there are so many aliens in federal custody is that they are there for primarily immigration-related offenses. This is certainly true, as about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

But most of the aliens are incarcerated because of other federal crimes they committed. According to the report, 46 percent of these aliens committed drug trafficking or other drug-related offenses, which was the largest crime category committed by aliens in BOP custody. The remaining 25 percent committed a variety of other criminal offenses, including fraud, weapons charges, racketeering, and sexual crimes. Clearly, the large population of aliens in BOP custody cannot simply be explained away by immigration crimes.

And of course that counts only those caught and convicted not the gang members still on the street.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 15:17:03

vtsnowedin wrote:And of course that counts only those caught and convicted not the gang members still on the street.



I knew someone would make such a silly statement.

And your purported "facts" (equating to jingling keys to distract) don't even have a citation or link that I see. Funny how that works.

So crime statistics about the US native criminals don't have the same issue? (A huge proportion of US native criminals don't get quickly caught). NONSENSE.

And yeah, I know that being here illegally is a crime. That's a key reason I want something to be done about the issue. But that does NOT equate to them being murderers or rapists or drug dealers.

Now you're delving into specious speculation. How do you plan to come up with the "correct" numbers? Guessing? Bias? Counting angels dancing on heads of pins?

The data on convictions is the data. Denying it doesn't change the reality, any more than it does for the clowns who constantly claim economic doom is imminent, for no valid reason.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby jedrider » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 17:24:52

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Cog wrote:I expect the Senate to pass their budget bill this week, which will include wall funding. Then it will go to the House for reconciliation. We will see how serious Pelosi is about re-opening the government.

Agreed.

No doubt now that Trump has made a compromise offer (whether the dems like it or not), the ball is in the dem's court until they make a counter-offer. And they no longer can validly claim Trump "owns the shutdown", if he's willing to negotiate and they aren't.


Software hackers exploit weaknesses in systems. This shutdown is a weakness in the system that is being exploited, just as hackers do, to the detriment of normal system operation. House of Representatives prerogative is it to make the budget. Period. Of course, there is conflict that is usually resolved by some means of compromise. But to strip the power away via blackmail, even by the Senate and President acting in tandem, I don't think it is how the government system design was envisioned.

It's as simple as that. In other words, the Wall is certainly not significant enough to merit a shutdown UNLESS one wants to gut the power of the House of Representatives. This is why the House won't budge.

I recently found out that Trump AND the Senate were just FINE and dandy about the House budget UNTIL they got political flak from FoxNews and Ann Coutler and Rush Limbaugh. Watched the WNBC video on this only a few days ago. So, Anne Coutler is making policy for the U.S.A. Quite incredible.
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Re: Government Shutdown USA

Unread postby Cog » Tue 22 Jan 2019, 18:04:13

Coulter thinks Trump is giving too much away to the Dems by making the DACA protections. The Dems are saying the DACA protections are only temporary(three years) and they want a permanent resolution on them.

Trump has always wanted money for the wall though. Back a year ago when the Republicans owned the House and Senate, Trump was talked into signing a budget without wall funding. He said at the time he wouldn't sign another one without it. So here we are.

It looks like the funding bill will require 60 votes instead of 51. I do not think they will get it so this won't go to the House. Schumer(D) has his own amendment that will be voted on Thursday. It includes no wall funding.

I'm supposing the economic damage has to get bad enough that someone will have to cave for the good of the country. I have no idea which side will do so though.
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