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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Apr 2022, 18:36:54

theluckycountry wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Exxon made a profit of $5.12 per share last year. With 4,225,673,726 shares outstanding that is a tidy little profit. :)



April 21, 2020
President Donald Trump on Tuesday promised the $181 billion oil and gas industry a federal bailout, after the price of oil suffered historic drops... Trump met with Big Oil executives earlier this month in the White House. In the foreground is Darren Woods, Chief Executive Officer of ExxonMobil.


Their profits are guaranteed.


https://www.alternet.org/2020/04/big-oi ... e-promise/

Actually during the Trump years Exxon had such bad results they were removed from the Dow 30 where they had sat for decades. They have come back a lot with the rise in oil prices under Biden policies but their profits were never guaranteed.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby Doly » Fri 29 Apr 2022, 15:32:56

Tell millions of people about the relentless rise in energy, the collapsing state of the power grid and how in 20 years it might not be functional? No way. Tell them a pack of lies instead and send them deeper into a state of cognitive dissonance.


I think there has to be a little bit more to it than that. After all, people can handle pretty horrible things like wars when they happen. So why couldn't they handle the notion that a war might happen before it happens, for example? (I'm thinking about what happened in Ukraine right before the invasion.)

I have a theory that maybe cognitive dissonance can make people sick, not just psychologically uncomfortable, but that it can make some people very sick, and that brings all sorts of other difficult consequences. It might explain the odd attitude of some doctors with the coronavirus. Once a war comes, with people getting killed all over the place, some people getting really sick doesn't look like such a big deal any more. But in peacetime it does. Well, it's the best theory I have right now for a lot of the weirdness that has been going on.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 30 Apr 2022, 04:44:21

This is a very well thought out presentation on renewables vs. nuclear power and climate change and environmental impacts.
Most logical thing I have seen in quite some time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w
Your reaction and comments?
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 30 Apr 2022, 06:58:54

India is roasting again, early in the season too. Well that's what happens when you're born in the wrong part of the wrong hemisphere.

Life-threatening heat waves arrived in India a month earlier than normal, shattering temperature records, with highs reaching over 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38 degrees Celsius) -- and it will only get hotter.
The worst of the heat wave is expected late this week into this weekend with high temperatures approaching 10-15 degrees Fahrenheit (5-8 degrees Celsius) above normal across northern and northwestern India as well as parts of Pakistan.
Over one billion people will be subjected to excessive heat -- 10% of the world's population, according to Scott Duncan, an extreme climate expert.


https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/27/weather/ ... index.html

Nighttime 'lows' more dangerous than highs 01:07
Little to no relief will come during the overnight hours as minimum temperatures will not dip below 86 degrees Fahrenheit (30 Celsius) in many areas.

Prolonged periods of warm nights can prove deadly as they limit the body's ability to recover from daytime heat
.

This can be the killer alright, no recovery, day after day, poor bastards. I wonder how it can be blamed on Biden :razz:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sat 30 Apr 2022, 07:38:19

vtsnowedin wrote:This is a very well thought out presentation on renewables vs. nuclear power and climate change and environmental impacts.
Your reaction and comments?


He could have dressed up a bit considering his audience, but I guess the 'image' of the activist has to be maintained. I wonder what his net worth is? How much his foundation is worth and how much big nuclear donate to it? Greenpeace is pretty well funded by the natural gas industry I believe.
Very scary that image of two power workers burning to death on a wind turbine, thank God nothing dangerous ever happens at nuclear plants. At least nothing that can't be hushed up, burred under a rug or otherwise downplayed.

Cleaning the flight deck of the USS Ronald Reagan after it was contaminated of Sendai due to Fukishima.

Photos taken by Navy personnel aboard the ship show the crew decontaminating the flight deck with brooms and foamy cleanser – clad in fatigues, hoodies and ski caps, many with their faces exposed.

In the three years since, dozens have developed cancers, at least one has borne a child with birth defects, and all “must now endure a lifetime of radiation poisoning and suffering which could have and should have been avoided,” the lawsuit says.


https://www.ocregister.com/2014/04/07/l ... s-sailors/


Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8qw05D0i1A
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 30 Apr 2022, 08:10:26

So you think the losses on the Ronald Reagan outweigh the thousands if not millions of deaths from other air pollution and climate change?. Poor thinking on your part.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby Doly » Mon 02 May 2022, 16:07:32

So you think the losses on the Ronald Reagan outweigh the thousands if not millions of deaths from other air pollution and climate change?. Poor thinking on your part.


Not sure if that's what was implied, but anyway, if that was the idea, it's very common. I worked for an NGO for a while, and we knew quite well that statistics of thousands or millions of people don't move people. Stories about small numbers of people (and literally, they're best if they're about just one person, or one family) are what moves most people. Most people look at graphs or charts or stats and feel nothing, and those who feel something, often feel the wrong things (like "economic growth - yeah!!").
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 02 May 2022, 19:27:35

Doly wrote:
So you think the losses on the Ronald Reagan outweigh the thousands if not millions of deaths from other air pollution and climate change?. Poor thinking on your part.


Not sure if that's what was implied, but anyway, if that was the idea, it's very common. I worked for an NGO for a while, and we knew quite well that statistics of thousands or millions of people don't move people. Stories about small numbers of people (and literally, they're best if they're about just one person, or one family) are what moves most people. Most people look at graphs or charts or stats and feel nothing, and those who feel something, often feel the wrong things (like "economic growth - yeah!!").
Well I prefer to look at total deaths of the population over decades not the very few accidental deaths from mishaps. Looking through that lens Nuclear electric generation is by far the safest course we can take both from a public safety view and the impacts on the environment AKA climate change.
That is not a popular position, I realize, but these same people today have said we need to move away from commercial fertilizer to "Green " alternatives like dung and compost. These same people want to get rid of all the cows emitting methane from belches from one end and the other end. If they get rid of all those polluting cows just where do they think they can get the dung for fertilizer from.
And if truth be known most of the "dung" is already being utilized on the farmlands of the world to good effect so there is very little unused dung to be used as a replacement for millions of tons of commercial fertilizer.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 27 May 2022, 17:32:22

Forecasting Change: How global warming, rising sea levels impact future hurricane seasons

Samantha Dunne, Tom Sorrells

NHC Director Ken Graham addresses what’s in store for storm season

‘Little wiggles matter:’ Here’s why Central Florida has gotten ‘lucky’ in recent hurricane seasons
‘Little wiggles matter:’ Here’s why Central Florida has gotten ‘lucky’ in recent hurricane seasons

These last few years in the Atlantic have proven more active than usual when it comes to the number of powerful hurricanes making landfall, according to storm experts.

News 6 chief meteorologist Tom Sorrells sat down with Ken Graham, director of the National Hurricane Center, to kick off the conversation about how the changing climate and the planet’s recent storm streak might impact future hurricane seasons.

TS:

We’re coming up on seven straight seasons of above average production of hurricanes by the atmosphere in the Earth. So are we ever going to get back to normal?

KG:

Take this in. We’ve had more (Category) 4 and 5 landfalls in the United States from 2017 to 2021 that we did from 1963 to 2016.

TS:

Wow.

KG:

It’s been busy. It’s been incredibly active. So if you look at it, eventually we’ll have some season that that gets averaged or maybe below with time, but right now we’re just (in) an incredibly active period of time.

TS:

What do you think about when it comes to the changing climate we’re all living through?

KG:

90% of fatalities in these tropical systems (come) from the water. So what’s going to happen in the future with it, with a, a warmer climate? Well, one, your sea level is going to come up. So, you know, you’ve talked about these hurricanes that produce storm surge, you can see not just higher amounts of storm surge, but further inland, so further in your rivers and further inland, associated with that, that storm surge. The other part is the rainfall. It’s pure physics. A warmer atmosphere can hold more moisture. So the rainfall rates, we’re seeing an increase in some of those rainfall rates. You’re gonna see heavy rain, not just on the coast, but well inland.

TS:

So in your opinion, it’s not necessarily about an increase in wind speed, or like, stronger storms?

KG:

It’s not even... a factor of the number of storms. We’re naming more, we see more, we got better tools, we got satellites, we got aircraft that, you know, see things that we would (not) have seen 20 or 30 years ago.

Other storm experts also contributed to the conversation.

“There’s some question about... storms are slowing down. That’s, I think, still an open question. Obviously, if storms were to slow down, that would tend to mean generally more rainfall (too) because the storm is moving slower over your particular area,” said Dr. Phil Klotzbach, Ph.D., a tropical weather and climate research scientist at Colorado State University. “While the Atlantic has hurricane numbers (that) have gone up since 1990, globally, they’ve actually gone down because the Pacific has gone down quite a bit. And the Pacific generally... generates many more storms in an average year.”

But Jamie Rome, deputy director with the National Hurricane Center, argued that people often get hung up on numbers and arguments revolving around what causes the storm without focusing on its impact.

“If the globe is warming, and it is, it’s going to retain more moisture, right? It’s going to hold it better. And then a hurricane is going to come and extract it all. So it means it’s going to rain. It’s going to rain harder in future hurricanes. You also don’t need me to tell you that the sea level is rising. You can see it, we can all see it,” Rome said. “We go to the coast, the coastline’s changing, sea levels rising—that is a higher base or foundation upon which future hurricanes will have to push storm surge. So the storm surge will be deeper and go farther inland. So whether the numbers are increasing or not, the storms that are forming are packing a bigger punch.”

John Cangialosi, NHC senior hurricane specialist, said as hurricane impacts grow worse, cities along the coastline should prepare.

“And many cities are (preparing), you know, I’m from New York, they’re preparing especially after Sandy, they’re building better sea walls. Houston is doing it, Miami is doing it. So you know, there’s a lot occurring in a lot of the major metropolitan areas that are vulnerable to this, which is great to see,” Cangialosi said.

https://www.clickorlando.com/weather/20 ... e-seasons/
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 11 Jun 2022, 00:04:49

India and China have both announced they will increase their domestic coal production by about 700 million tons.

That's a HUGE increase.

For comparison, total coal production in the USA is about 600 million tons.....so CHINDIA is adding the equivalent of another USA in coal production.

india-and-china-coal-production-surging-700m-tons-year-thats-greater-all-us-coal-output

Curiously, they will both still be in good standing in the Paris Climate Accords.

Thats because the Paris Climate Accords are an utter farce that require ZERO CO2 emissions cuts. The Paris Climate Accords don't even require stable CO2 emissions. All they required is a country willing to sign the Accord. Thats how utterly nonsensical the Paris Climate Accords are.

The Paris Climate accords are TOTAL BS. TOTALLY WORTHLESS. TOTAL GREENWASHING. TOTALLY NOTHING.

The Paris Climate Accords are why global warming will continue and even accelerate as move ahead. Because our politicians lied to us and our media lied to us and all we got was meaningless and worthless and fraudulent climate accords from the like of Obama and the rest of the frauds who signed it.

Image
Obama and Chairman Xi committed a fraud on the world at the Paris Climate Accords.

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 14:25:40

Would there still have been climate change under socialism?
Market failure certainly delays aggressive climate action, but even had the whole world in the 20th century been socialist, the planet would still be heating up.
By Leigh Phillips

It is common to come across the notion, especially on the climate left, that humanity and the rest of the planet would not be staring down the threat of climate change if it were not for capitalism – from Naomi Klein’s best-selling This Changes Everything: Capitalism vs the Climate (2014) to the growing number of activists identifying themselves as “eco-socialists”.

There is however no evidence that this is the case. On the contrary – and I say this as a committed socialist – while a retreat from market-based allocation and an expansion of economic planning offers us the best hope for rapidly decarbonising our economy today, paradoxically, a maximally socialist 20th century would have resulted in global warming at least as bad as we are currently experiencing, probably worse.

And the reason why would actually have been a very good thing. There are of course countless examples of fossil fuel companies persistently working to deny the reality of global warming and delay climate action in order to protect their profits, by lobbying and spreading misinformation. But this only tells us that the profit incentive can hinder the clean transition. It doesn’t explain why humanity started burning fossil fuels (or producing steel, cement, fertilizer, and so on) in the first place.

So why did humanity turn to fossil fuels? The environmental humanities scholar and climate activist Andreas Malm has argued that the adoption of fossil fuel, beginning with the shift from water power to coal-fired steam in the early 19th century, was not an inevitable development – the result of coal being an objectively superior energy source as the orthodox narrative of industrial revolution has it – but rather arose out of capitalist property relations. Since coal was mobile unlike water power – which was tied to rivers and constrained by their flows – it enabled a docile labour force, concentrated in factory towns, to work around the clock, maximising profits. For Malm, capitalism and fossil fuels are inseparable. But there could have been another path: socialism, being a classless society, does not require docile workers, and so might have had no need for fossil fuels.

But Malm, Klein and others are wrong. Socialism may not need docile workers, but its publicly owned hospitals certainly need the 24/7 electricity that powers their ventilators and dialysis machines and need to be built where there are population concentrations, not where weather-dependent energy services such as water power are optimal. Until the development of large-scale hydroelectric and nuclear power, fossil fuels were indeed objectively superior to their fair-weather and geography-dependent precursors. Socialism would have needed fossil fuels too.

Consider this thought experiment. Let’s imagine that the 1918-19 socialist German Revolution that failed in the real world had in fact been successful. Rather than being attempted in semi-feudal, largely agrarian Russia, in our counterfactual history socialism emerges instead in the modern, democratising, industrial societies that Marx had predicted would be its birthplace. From Germany, socialism spreads across Europe and thence the world. To simplify matters for the sake of the thought experiment, let us define socialism as a global economy that allocates goods and services through democratic planning on the basis of need, not, as with capitalism, primarily via markets on the basis of profit. Furthermore, in our thought experiment, let’s give our socialists an additional, temporal advantage and say that capitalism is vanquished everywhere by, say, 1930. Democratic socialism is triumphant across the globe. There is no Soviet disaster. No Maoist famines. No Second World War. No Cold War. Colonialism is willingly, rapidly unravelled in the 1920s rather than reluctantly, incompletely, violently, in the 1950s and 1960s. There is no crisis of profitability in the early 1970s and thus no 1980s neoliberal revolution.

Even had all this occurred, it would still probably not have been until the 1980s that the full scale of the threat of climate change with respect to fossil fuel combustion was understood by scientists – around the same time as it was under our existing capitalist system. Even though the heat-trapping effects of carbon dioxide had been the subject of scientific speculation since the mid-19th century, it wasn’t until the 1980s that the full climatic consequences of burning fossil fuels began to be widely recognised. (Remember, the fact that ExxonMobil’s internal researchers knew about the scale of the problem caused by their lucrative product in the 1970s before much of the rest of the scientific community did is central to what made their actions such a scandal.)

A successful German Revolution and democratic socialist governments around the world would absolutely not have dispensed with industrial modernity. Rather, socialism would have spread industrialisation everywhere, and as fast as development of the forces of production would allow. Housing for all, electricity for all, fast and comfortable transport for all, and yes, even delightful plastic consumer tchotchkes for all. While socialism might avoid the duplicative irrationality of 14 different flavours of laundry detergent one finds under capitalism, there would still be consumerism under socialism; it doesn’t promise a hair-shirted, grey existence of only basic needs being met. A dearth of consumer items in order to focus on industrial production was one of many shortcomings of Stalinism that turned its subjects against it. There would absolutely be a People’s Xbox under socialism. As the Lawrence, Massachusetts textile strikers demanded in 1912, we want bread, but we want roses too.

So in a socialist 20th century up until the 1980s: fossil fuel extraction and combustion; steel, cement and fertilizer production; rice, beef and dairy agriculture; and aviation, trucking and shipping – all would have continued in essentially the same fashion as happened in history, but there would have been much, much more of it, as so many more billions of people would have access to industrial modernity. And all of this progress would have unfolded with society largely unaware of the consequences for the climate. Exploitation would have come to an end, and poor working conditions with them. And economic development would have occurred in egalitarian fashion rather than being driven by profit and colonial, inter-imperialist necessity. But it is hard to believe that, for example, socialist steel foundries would have used a different chemical reaction to turn iron oxide into iron than capitalist societies did (at least until the real-world 2020s advent of clean steel manufacturing). To say that socialism would have been able to avoid emitting a climate-changing volume of greenhouse gases is thus to suggest that eco-socialism would not have delivered electricity, transport, modern housing and so on to all – which would not have been a socialism that any 20th-century Marxist would have recognised.

There may have been some differences between a capitalist and a socialist 20th century in terms of technologies deployed. Perhaps there would have been lots of differences. There would have been no nuclear weapons, certainly, but these, however nefarious, have comparatively little impact on the climate from their production. But the only significant difference that might have lowered greenhouse gas emissions would be that public transport under socialism would likely have been emphasised much more than personal vehicles. But even if public transport would have been greatly expanded under socialism, since development would have spread to all the world’s billions, the absolute number of personal vehicles might still have been substantially larger.

Certainly there would have been far more steel and cement, were all of humanity properly housed, and there would have been much, much more coal combustion (where local geography did not permit hydropower dams), were electricity likewise delivered to all. Remember that in the real world, prior to Stalin’s counter-revolution, Lenin defined communism as “Soviet power plus electrification of the whole country”. And in the depths of the Russian civil war, when forces from 14 nations had invaded to crush the young workers’ state, in a 1919 message transmitted from Shipilovo station Trotsky described the coal of the Donets Basin as a “great buried treasure,” of which “our factories, railways, steamships and domestic hearths are in mortal need”.

In other words, in our counterfactual world, production might have been organised according to other aims than profit (or much of it, depending on how far one favours socialisation of production), but this would in fact have unleashed much more production. And this of course was what Marx imagined when he expressed his frustration at how production for commodity exchange irrationally constrained what could be produced. Socialism would not have resulted in less production, for the set of all things that are profitable is smaller than the set of all things that are useful to humanity. Instead of coal plants powering factories largely only in Europe and the US by the 1930s, they would have been powering them everywhere. Development would have been limited only by global economic capacity at any given moment.

Global warming under a socialist 20th century thus would have been far worse by the time we realised the threat it posed in the 1980s, because socialism would have spread industrial modernity to all citizens of the world as soon as possible, uninhibited by the need for profit-making or its consequence, imperial interest. As unfortunate as the more severe threat from global warming would have been, this would also have been outweighed by the profoundly greater advances in human development the entirety of the species would have experienced.

In a way the relationship between fossil fuel combustion and human advance is borne out by the actual record: the “Great Acceleration” – the sharp uptick in atmospheric CO2 since the 1950s, among other indices of humanity’s ecological impact – coincided with a world-historic socio-economic transformation: after three decades of revolution, depression, labour strife, civil war and world war, most of the West agreed to a new social compact between capital and labour, introducing the modern welfare state and institutionalising trade unions. The social democratic postwar consensus radically enhanced the living standards of hundreds of millions. China’s rapid development in the 1990s and 2000s, largely fuelled by coal, similarly lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty (albeit in a land absent of free trade unions and civil liberties).

So why is socialism of any benefit at all with respect to climate change, if its establishment worldwide might actually have made it worse, and if social advances in the latter half of the 20th century drove a sharp acceleration in emissions? To answer this question, we have to recognise the limits of what socialism promises. It does not promise a society without problems, or even a society without severe problems. Humans solve problems and those solutions unwittingly cause new problems, to which we devise new solutions, which spawn yet more problems. This will continue, so long as our species survives, until the heat death of the universe (unless we can somehow solve that problem too). No economic system can promise an end to all problems. Socialism is merely, perhaps disappointingly so, a social technology that offers better solutions to problems than capitalism does, and better problems.

The difference between capitalism and socialism with respect to climate change (or any other environmental problem) is that under the latter, once any ecological threat from a technology is discovered, the main barrier to switching away from that technology is the speed with which scientists and engineers can develop alternative technologies that don’t cause the identified harm while still delivering the same benefit.

Under capitalism, however, there are three additional problems. First is the market incentive that drives the owners of a firm that produces a commodity found to be harmful to continue its production (and thus an incentive to lobby, misinform and capture regulation). Note that this incentive does not distinguish between a single boss, a group of shareholders, or an entire country owning the given firm (hence the incentive Equinor, an energy company of which the government of Norway is the largest shareholder, to continue oil and gas extraction). Second, there is little incentive, in a capitalist system, to produce clean, useful technologies that remain unprofitable or insufficiently profitable. A good example is conventional nuclear energy. Despite having the lowest carbon emissions of any electricity generation source and being capable of providing energy 24/7, nuclear finds it difficult to compete against natural gas and wind and solar in liberalised energy markets because of its high upfront capital costs. For this reason, conventional nuclear will likely always be a primarily state-driven affair. Finally, the competition between nations that the market produces inhibits democratic global problem-solving.

All of these pathologies of market failure at the level of individual commodities and development of individual technologies combine to create the direst of economy-wide coordination problems. The existential threat from stratospheric ozone depletion was largely solved by the 1987 Montreal Protocol and the national regulations that the protocol demanded – a species of (modest) economic planning, coordinated globally. But chlorofluorocarbon use, the target of the protocol, affected only a few sectors. Climate change, by contrast, demands wholesale transformation of electricity, transport, industry, buildings and agriculture – almost everything we do and make. Sectoral planning bodies such as were common in Western democracies during the First and Second World Wars, using indicative planning (state coordination of a mixed economy rather than Gosplan-style planning of everything) to craft climate mitigation strategies for each while coordinating with their fellows across sectors, could go a long way to ameliorating the coordination problem at which the price mechanism performs so poorly.

Even if low-carbon technologies to decarbonise, say, four fifths of emissions-producing activities – outside hard-to-decarbonise sectors such as cement and heavy transport – were known in the 1980s, in reality deploying these technologies can sometimes still be far too expensive. A socialist world might not account for expense in dollars, depending on one’s preferred means of socialist allocation, but it still would in labour time and opportunity cost. As the neo-Keynesian economist Mariana Mazzucato has shown, markets are often poor at blue-sky innovation and also at taking innovation from lab bench through to commercialisation, so here we can add another feather in the socialist’s climate cap by arguing that such a society would be able to allocate more economic capacity towards innovation and de-risking that innovation both for the hard-to-decarbonise and expensive-to-decarbonise sectors.

Putting all this together, the most we can say is that even though global warming would likely be worse under socialism by the time the full scale of its threat was discovered in the 1980s, the response would have been more rapid and more egalitarian than that of our existing capitalist world. Speed of response is crucial of course, especially when it comes to an existential threat like climate change – and particularly when you consider that the bulk of greenhouse gases have been emitted in the last three decades or so. But that is all. Perhaps, if we squint, we might imagine that if the situation was worse, our socialist world might have discovered the problem a decade or two earlier. A global egalitarian order – democratic socialism – does away with aspects of capitalism that slow down our ability to deal with unknown, novel threats, once they become known. But socialism cannot do away with unknown, novel threats.

Understanding this is essential if we are to break with romantic responses to the climate emergency and related bio-crises, responses that are all too frequently empirically ungrounded or show a lack of understanding of how energy, transport, industrial and agricultural systems work. Too many think of climate change as something imposed by capitalist irrationality upon the rest of us against our will, a phenomenon that would never have happened in a classless world. Rather, climate change, as the unintended consequence of largely beneficial – though highly uneven – economic development, presents a problem that is just really hard to solve. Fossil fuels were (and in many places in the developing world still are) a great emancipator, even as over the long term, they may eventually foreclose that emancipation.

If this way of thinking is not corrected, there will be those who continue to be seduced by false solutions such as degrowth, anti-consumerism, anti-modernism and other forms of eco-austerity that distract from solutions that are more appropriate to the problem – and which also happen to be properly socialist – namely a greater role for economic planning


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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 16:06:35

This year seems very noteworthy for climate change. It just feels like the beginning of the end to me, reading the headlines of droughts and floods and excessively high temperatures and ocean kills and lake kills and insect kills, etc.

Yes, the modern world came at the price of severely truncating the habitability of the Earth.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby C8 » Fri 12 Aug 2022, 20:11:33

The article that Tanada posted about Socialism and Climate Change seems to never get around to mentioning that, historically, socialist economies have had a far worse environmental record than capitalist economies.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 13 Aug 2022, 11:29:48

jedrider wrote:This year seems very noteworthy for climate change. It just feels like the beginning of the end to me, reading the headlines of droughts and floods and excessively high temperatures and ocean kills and lake kills and insect kills, etc.

Yes, the modern world came at the price of severely truncating the habitability of the Earth.


No, it didn't. The earth will continue to be wonderfully habitable to all sorts of life. Your comment contains within it speciesism, a horrible human idea that is part of how we got to where we are, thinking we are the species that matter above all others. May the cockroaches, dolphins or marmots have their opportunity to become the apex predator of the earth, in time, and good for them. Maybe they won't treat the biosphere as poorly as we have.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 13 Aug 2022, 15:23:16

AdamB wrote:The earth will continue to be wonderfully habitable to all sorts of life.


Well, of course. Bacteria, for certain.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 13 Aug 2022, 21:27:43

jedrider wrote:
AdamB wrote:The earth will continue to be wonderfully habitable to all sorts of life.


Well, of course. Bacteria, for certain.

Don't forget the cockroaches.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 14 Aug 2022, 10:04:30

jedrider wrote:
AdamB wrote:The earth will continue to be wonderfully habitable to all sorts of life.


Well, of course. Bacteria, for certain.


Oh please. LIke if humans can't have it, no one can? Nonsense. Certainly when the earth was in its more normal, and warmer, state, bacteria were not what ruled the earth.

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 14 Aug 2022, 10:09:46

vtsnowedin wrote:
jedrider wrote:
AdamB wrote:The earth will continue to be wonderfully habitable to all sorts of life.


Well, of course. Bacteria, for certain.

Don't forget the cockroaches.


Or whatever other placental mammals make it through and then grow into maybe more idiot bipeds like the ones that wrecked it the first time around.
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Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby jedrider » Sun 14 Aug 2022, 13:53:25

Well, we started out as worms. Some resemblance remains.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 23

Unread postby careinke » Mon 15 Aug 2022, 13:46:00

AdamB wrote:
jedrider wrote:This year seems very noteworthy for climate change. It just feels like the beginning of the end to me, reading the headlines of droughts and floods and excessively high temperatures and ocean kills and lake kills and insect kills, etc.

Yes, the modern world came at the price of severely truncating the habitability of the Earth.


No, it didn't. The earth will continue to be wonderfully habitable to all sorts of life. Your comment contains within it speciesism, a horrible human idea that is part of how we got to where we are, thinking we are the species that matter above all others. May the cockroaches, dolphins or marmots have their opportunity to become the apex predator of the earth, in time, and good for them. Maybe they won't treat the biosphere as poorly as we have.


So says the person who actively avoids learning about biology because it's icky.

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