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General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 30 Jul 2022, 23:13:38

C8 wrote:Basically, Manchin made green energy hostage to FF's.


Pretty amusing for Democrats to support it, isn't it? Like maybe it was the plan all along, pay lip service to whatever greenery they could shout about while making sure that their deep pocketed friends got their cut of the pie?

C8 wrote:This will lead to record spending and record inflation.


Seems like the spending part has been going on forever, the inflation part is relatively new.

C8 wrote:The middle class will be crushed as the inflation "tax" wipes out their standard of living. But big Green and Oil corps. will get fat.


And who do you think the Democan and Republicrat people work for? Like they care about the middle class, and inflation is exactly the plan to devalue the government debt. And impoverish the citizens along the way as a nice side benefit. Sort of like the Greece issue, except at a larger scale.

C8 wrote:America only know one response to a debt created crisis: create MORE debt! The final reckoning just got worse.


Oh, don't pretend that current American actions won't flow out into the world at large. American exceptionalsim cuts both ways, when we're good, the world can benefit as well, when we are banana bending stupid, well, the rest of the world suffers as well.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 30 Jul 2022, 23:20:49

vtsnowedin wrote: And just watch the Biden bureaucracy stiff Manchin on those drilling permits by dragging out some process or another and never actually issuing any drilling permits. So Manchin has bargained with the devil and has lost his soul .


Which drilling permits? The ones that have been processed and put out for drilling ever since the initial euphoria of "i hereby stop drilling on federal lands" claim which lasted maybe 6 months? Manchin never had a soul, he's a politician, and doing a GOOD job at making sure he is set for life by the time he leaves office. As expected of an American politician.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 06:25:19

AdamB wrote:Manchin never had a soul, he's a politician, and doing a GOOD job at making sure he is set for life by the time he leaves office. As expected of an American politician.

Well Manchin turns 75 next month and was already rich from his families coal brokerage business. If he runs for reelection in 2024 that would probably be his last term after holding one office or another for fifty years. I doubt if he cares much about his retirement account.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 11:22:38

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:Manchin never had a soul, he's a politician, and doing a GOOD job at making sure he is set for life by the time he leaves office. As expected of an American politician.

Well Manchin turns 75 next month and was already rich from his families coal brokerage business.


So he continues in the fine tradition of going to congress to get richer than he started? Certainly his support of the family business, including his own, and his daughters, fits right in with normal politician behavior.

vtsnowedin wrote: If he runs for reelection in 2024 that would probably be his last term after holding one office or another for fifty years. I doubt if he cares much about his retirement account.


No need after he has had more than enough time to solidify future income with the kind of legislation he has allowed to pass. The entire point of being a politician.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 11:56:25

AdamB wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:Manchin never had a soul, he's a politician, and doing a GOOD job at making sure he is set for life by the time he leaves office. As expected of an American politician.

Well Manchin turns 75 next month and was already rich from his families coal brokerage business.


So he continues in the fine tradition of going to congress to get richer than he started? Certainly his support of the family business, including his own, and his daughters, fits right in with normal politician behavior.

vtsnowedin wrote:
If he runs for reelection in 2024 that would probably be his last term after holding one office or another for fifty years. I doubt if he cares much about his retirement account.


No need after he has had more than enough time to solidify future income with the kind of legislation he has allowed to pass. The entire point of being a politician.


Perhaps you miss my point. After another term he would retire at age 82 and probably based on statistics not be retired long. Just like Pelosi and Biden he is so old he never left time to actually spend and enjoy the riches they have accumulated.
Perhaps their grand children will enjoy burning through the millions?
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby Doly » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 16:17:42

And who do you think the Democan and Republicrat people work for?


Themselves, obviously.

Like they care about the middle class, and inflation is exactly the plan to devalue the government debt. And impoverish the citizens along the way as a nice side benefit.


I wouldn't assume that any politician understands money. In fact, the way they behave strongly suggests that they don't. I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve with their money policies, but it's irrelevant, since in order to achieve what they want they would have to know what they are doing in the first place.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 16:59:51

Doly wrote:
And who do you think the Democan and Republicrat people work for?


Themselves, obviously.

Like they care about the middle class, and inflation is exactly the plan to devalue the government debt. And impoverish the citizens along the way as a nice side benefit.


I wouldn't assume that any politician understands money. In fact, the way they behave strongly suggests that they don't. I'm not sure what they are trying to achieve with their money policies, but it's irrelevant, since in order to achieve what they want they would have to know what they are doing in the first place.

Your cynicism is showing but in this case you have it well placed.
Using inflation to devalue the public debt works of course but I see no reason that they would deliberately impoverishing the citizens at the same time. After all those citizens are the paying customers of their corporations and many of them are their stockholders through their retirement accounts.
So they are doing that by accident ,not knowing how the economy really works.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 17:35:38

vtsnowedin wrote: Perhaps you miss my point. After another term he would retire at age 82 and probably based on statistics not be retired long. Just like Pelosi and Biden he is so old he never left time to actually spend and enjoy the riches they have accumulated.


They enjoy them in the moments they aren't working. Which, if my understanding of the length of time Congress is in session, it means that a working American does about 240 years a year of work, and recently Congress does like 130.

Are you implying they don't have sufficient time to, in Manchins case, enjoy the spoils of their "work"?

vtsnowedin wrote: Perhaps their grand children will enjoy burning through the millions?


Once you have more than you need to spend on what you enjoy, why would you otherwise be working? I'm eligible to retire right now, full retirement except I've got a little time before full or full+ social security, investments and savings, even more headed my way when my aged parents pass away. My wife is younger than I am, it sure isn't kids I plan on showering with liquidity, it is the wife. So sure, Manchin can shower his descendants with whatever situation he can rig for them through his influence sales.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 17:43:41

Doly wrote:
Like they care about the middle class, and inflation is exactly the plan to devalue the government debt. And impoverish the citizens along the way as a nice side benefit.


I wouldn't assume that any politician understands money.


Quite possible. Certainly peak oilers can't be counted on to know bubcuss about geology, let alone economics, petroleum engineering, etc etc.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 17:47:25

vtsnowedin wrote: So they are doing that by accident ,not knowing how the economy really works.


Or Doly is right and they don't know squat about economics. Or much of anything. But they do ACCOMPLISH their own enrichment while in office. What an interesting coincidence...win Federal public office....do favors....get out and be rich. What an interesting correlation....win federal office and come out being worth far more than when you went in.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby theluckycountry » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 18:48:38

Doly wrote:
I wouldn't assume that any politician understands money. In fact, the way they behave strongly suggests that they don't..


They are like academics in that regard, living their whole lives in an insulated bubble chasing money, grants and gratuities, doled out by big businesses with a specific agenda. Much of the scientific papers now are unverifiable, they are just putting out shite in the media and politicians lap this up if it suits their agenda. As for economics? Well that's not even a science, it's pseudo-science.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 092605.htm
https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2021/0 ... 621892627/
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 21:53:36

AdamB wrote:........What an interesting coincidence...win Federal public office....do favors....get out and be rich. .......

Funny that they seldom go to the get out route and keep in there building ever bigger fortunes they never get around to spending.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 31 Jul 2022, 21:56:42

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote:........What an interesting coincidence...win Federal public office....do favors....get out and be rich. .......

Funny that they seldom go to the get out route and keep in there building ever bigger fortunes they never get around to spending.


Depends on whether or not you want to know your wife and kids will be taken care of in the event of your demise. Generational wealth is the way the rich stay rich in America...best way to become a millionaire in our world of business's not paying a living wage? Inherit it.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 01 Aug 2022, 17:54:14

AdamB wrote: Generational wealth is the way the rich stay rich in America...best way to become a millionaire in our world of business's not paying a living wage? Inherit it.

Actually a lot of people do pretty well marrying it. John Kerry for example.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 01 Aug 2022, 19:21:17

vtsnowedin wrote:
AdamB wrote: Generational wealth is the way the rich stay rich in America...best way to become a millionaire in our world of business's not paying a living wage? Inherit it.

Actually a lot of people do pretty well marrying it. John Kerry for example.


In reality the vast majority of people who become millionaires in the USA do so by going to school and becoming talented professionals who earn high salaries. Doctors, lawyer, computer programmers etc etc. earn very good money these days.

There are also large numbers of people who make a lot money starting up small businesses, or running franchise restaurants like McDonalds.

Several million people in the USA have become millionaires by saving and investing through their retirement accounts.

Many people become millionaires by buying small apartment buildings or a number of rental units and then collecting rents.

And some People can even become millionaires just by buying their own house and watching as its value inflates. For example....right now the average price of home in Orange Country is 1.3 million dollars, and similarly high prices can be found in nice areas all over California.

And a very large number of people become millionaires each year just because they are so good at playing football, basketball or baseball.

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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 01 Aug 2022, 19:28:30

There are about 22 million millionaires in the US.I'll bet less then 2000 of them are athletes or rock stars.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 02 Aug 2022, 13:53:00

vtsnowedin wrote:There are about 22 million millionaires in the US.I'll bet less then 2000 of them are athletes or rock stars.


I'd bet the same. I know some old farts who are millionaires, a married school teacher and coal miner. Born to Depression Era parents, learned to be frugal. That and steady work during the American union era was enough.
What does a science denier look like?

Armageddon » Thu 09 Feb 2006, 10:47:28
whales are a perfect example as to why evolution is wrong. Nothing can evolve into something that enormous. There is no explanation for it getting that big. end of discussion
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby C8 » Fri 19 Aug 2022, 19:25:59

This is a good read if you are interested in the shifting power alliances at work to promote and stall renewable power
https://energynews.us/2022/08/12/after- ... -progress/


After legal win, Lake Erie offshore wind project backers look to reboot progress
Ohio’s highest court finally approved the permit for LEEDCo’s Icebreaker project, but delays now require major regrouping.



by Kathiann M. Kowalski
August 12, 2022

Downtown Cleveland, Ohio, rises on the shore of Lake Erie. A six-turbine wind project 8 to 10 miles northwest of the city would be the first freshwater offshore wind farm in North America.
Downtown Cleveland, Ohio, rises on the shore of Lake Erie. A six-turbine wind project about 8 miles northwest of the city would be the first freshwater offshore wind farm in North America. Credit: Erik Drost / Creative Commons
The backers of the Great Lakes’ first offshore wind farm are working to reboot the project following an Ohio Supreme Court decision this week that resolves more than two years of legal and regulatory uncertainty.

The Icebreaker Wind project was first proposed more than a decade ago by a public-private partnership in northern Ohio. The 20.7-megawatt project will consist of six turbines installed about 8 miles north of Cleveland.

The project has been largely mothballed since May 2020, when state regulators approved a permit for the project with a “poison pill” provision that would have kept it from operating for much of the year. That set off months of legal and regulatory appeals that were finally resolved by a 6-1 decision Wednesday by the Ohio Supreme Court.

“Despite the good news today, it is going to be challenging to get this project rolling forward again,” said Will Friedman, president and CEO of the Port of Cleveland and a board member of LEEDCo, the Lake Erie Energy Development Corporation, which was formed in 2009 to launch the project.

The project has a commitment from the city of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County to purchase one-third of the electricity, but efforts to sell the remaining two-thirds were put on hold amid the legal challenges. Without commitments to buy all of the electricity, it’s unlikely the project will be able to borrow money for upfront construction costs.

Meanwhile, the project’s lead officer, Dave Karpinski, left his role as president last summer for another job. Other key staff members have retired. Friedman said one of the first priorities in the wake of the court ruling will involve staffing. Fred. Olsen Renewables remains contracted as a developer for the project.

As the United States’ first freshwater-based wind farm, Icebreaker is a pilot project. The project caught a break in January when the U.S. Department of Energy extended a deadline for LEEDCo to use previous grant money. Additional funding will be necessary even if the promoters get commitments to sell all the output at market rates.

“It’s R&D, is what it is,” Friedman said.

“We want to get out there and get these turbines in the water and start generating power and show that this is feasible,” Friedman said. “And then when that happens, then we can let the market kind of come in. And hopefully we would see what’s happening on the East Coast where larger utility-scale projects are moving ahead.”

Ohio’s Republican caucus rejected a proposed surcharge for Northeast Ohio ratepayers to subsidize the project last December. The charge of roughly 20 cents per month would have been an amendment to House Bill 389, a bipartisan bill that seeks to restore some energy efficiency programs that were cut after House Bill 6, the law at the heart of Ohio’s ongoing corruption scandal.

“And so here we are in Ohio, doing it with sort of two legs of a three-legged stool,” Friedman said. “We’ve got local people working on this and the federal government partnering in the project. But the state is absent, and that just remains very challenging.”

Other challenges include revisiting engineering plans, to see if any updates are necessary. Costs also will need updating, Friedman said. And revised estimates will feed back into efforts to raise capital.

Even when all of that is in place, the permit contains various requirements and conditions that will need to be satisfied. Consequently, Friedman could not yet give a firm timeline for when the project would be built and operational.

Fossil fuel opposition
LEEDCo’s legal existence as a public-private nonprofit partnership stretches back to its incorporation in 2009 as the Lake Erie Energy Development Corporation. Justice Jennifer Brunner, who penned the Ohio Supreme Court’s majority opinion last week, was Ohio Secretary of State at the time. She’s now running for Chief Justice of the Ohio Supreme Court against Justice Sharon Kennedy, who cast the only dissenting vote against the Icebreaker project.

Despite funding setbacks in 2014, the project’s supporters pushed ahead with planning and environmental studies. Icebreaker’s completed permit application was filed with the Ohio Power Siting Board in 2016. Planners hoped construction would take place in 2018.

In 2017, however, attorney John Stock, who had represented Murray Energy in other matters, appeared in the case on behalf of a pro-coal group and then acted as the lawyer for several individuals who opposed the project. Stock followed a similar pattern in other Ohio wind farm siting cases.

Documents uncovered through pre-hearing fact-finding confirmed that Murray Energy paid the individuals’ costs for fighting the Icebreaker wind project. Payments continued for at least some time after the coal company filed for bankruptcy in late 2019. American Consolidated Natural Resources, Inc., the company’s successor-in-bankruptcy, did not respond last year when asked if it had continued to pay for legal fees in the case.

“The fossil fuel industry continues to hamper renewable energy development in Ohio,” said Trish Demeter, interim executive director for the Ohio Environmental Council, which was a party in the proceedings. “In this case, Murray Energy funded legal opposition to thwart the development of Icebreaker Wind, but they failed in stopping this innovative project from clearing another hurdle.” Nonetheless, she noted, “the ongoing legal challenges most likely led to some slowdowns in securing funding and planning of the project.”

By 2019, all parties except Stock’s clients had nonetheless agreed on a settlement, which included extra environmental protections such as additional pre-construction monitoring. Then, Gov. Mike DeWine made wind-energy foe Sam Randazzo chair of the Power Siting Board and Ohio Public Utilities Commission. FirstEnergy admitted last year that it paid $4.3 million to a Randazzo-linked company shortly before that appointment, although Randazzo has denied wrongdoing.

Two months before the first arrests in the HB 6 scandal, Randazzo and the rest of the Power Siting Board approved a permit for the Icebreaker project, but with a “poison pill” provision that would have shut the project down for two-thirds of the year. A bipartisan group of 32 lawmakers objected, and LEEDCo and others asked for reconsideration.

The board finally removed the condition and approved the permit in October 2020, roughly one month before Randazzo resigned from the board following a search of his home by federal agents. Then the individual defendants appealed to the Ohio Supreme Court. Briefs were filed in July 2021, but the judges didn’t hear oral argument until December. Then it took another eight months before the decision came out.

Moving ahead
Even with all the drawbacks, Friedman remains optimistic. “It’s undeniable that there’s an imperative to develop non-fossil-based energy as quickly as we can,” he said. At least one estimate suggests the U.S. offshore wind supply chain could grow into a $70 billion industry, and he would like Northeast Ohio to have its share of that growth.

“It’s the right environmental policy, and it’s the right economic policy, for sure,” Friedman said. As he sees it, the work could provide thousands of jobs, many of which would benefit the Port of Cleveland and surrounding areas. “We just see that as right in our wheelhouse,” he said.

“It’s our hope that LEEDCo can now resume selling the remainder of the power and turn this dream into a reality,” said Ronn Richard, LEEDCo board chair and chief executive officer for the Cleveland Foundation, when the Ohio Supreme Court’s ruling came out.

Meanwhile, Demeter and her colleagues urge the Ohio Power Siting Board to adopt rules from the Ohio Judicial Code of Conduct to attorney examiners and board members. “The Icebreaker case is a strong reminder of the inappropriate influence the fossil fuel industry can have on Ohioans’ access to clean innovative energy,” she said.

The OPSB is accepting comments from the public for its current rule review until Sept. 2. Emails can be sent to [email protected] with “Reply Comment for 21-0912” in the subject line.
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Re: General News and Discussion on Renewable Energy

Unread postby C8 » Fri 19 Aug 2022, 19:52:41

https://energynews.us/2022/07/28/illino ... s-for-all/

Good article on the challenge of getting poor people to use solar- most live in older communities that have too much shade
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