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Florida shooting

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 14:34:56

I have to agree fully with Kaiser here
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 14:40:23

KaiserJeep wrote:Most of the above posts are nonsense.

Spoons do not make people obese, people eating too many calories do that.

Pencils do not cause mis-spelled words, the pencil operator does that.

Guns do not cause mass shootings, sick people do that.

You are not going to fix sick people by restricting their access to firearms. That puts them into an internet search for ways of killing independant of firearms. You really, really don't want to go there, as there are some astonishing things to be found. Having such sick people fixated on small arms IMHO keeps the casualties minimal.


Exactly, but while you are afraid of them I suggest we should engage them. And the way to do that is by entering into the public sphere. It's like this, where did the older generation's disdain for all pain killers come from, such that they would refuse even palliative care when faced with a life ending illness? Their reticence was the foundation for the policies that the current reaction the other way with pain killers has come from. All such things are ideas circulating around in the public consciousness. They need definition, or they go about like hungry lions, seeking whom they may devour.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 17:35:00

You wish to engage me as an active shooter? Not a school shooter, so you don't get confused, but a person who trains regularly. What do you wish to engage me about?
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 17:55:56

So now there are four deputies who did not engage the shooter. Still want me to rely on law enforcement to protect me? For those who hate the idea of teachers being armed, how much worse could it be if cops won't engage the shooter to begin with? Or do you libs simply want complete disarmament?

Sounds like to me the Coral Springs officers understood their training but apparently the cops in the locality had not a clue.

Funny how the Broward County Sheriff never mentioned any of this during the CNN town meeting with him.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics ... index.html


CNN reporting that the first 3 BCSO deputies to arrive after Peterson did not enter the building either. Coral Springs officers arrived to find 3 BCSO deputies taking cover behind their vehicles with weapons drawn. Even after
the Coral Springs officers entered the school, the BCSO deputies remained outside.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 19:32:41

Let's recap this sad state of affairs. But yet Cog, 1600 miles away from all of this, is to blame because I have AR-15 rifles. Because its evident that only law enforcement should have guns because the are all so specially trained.


1) Thirty-nine times the cops visited this shooter and nothing was done

2) Two times the shooter was reported to the FBI and nothing was done

3) The shooter was suspended several times for violent behavior and/or threats

4)The shooter was expelled for threats

5)There was an armed Broward cop on the scene and did not engage the shooter

6) Four more Broward cops showed up and remained outside

7)Another department showed up and the four officers from Broward still remained outside.

8-The Broward police department and school came up with a policy to reduce the number of arrests to get more funding
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 19:52:24

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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:14:26

The hits keep rolling in. But remember folks only law enforcement has the training to defend you.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnashrul ... .dhK6ql7Ae


The Broward County Sheriff's Office had received two calls — one as recently as November 2017 — informing them that Nikolas Cruz was a potential school shooter who possessed an arsenal of weapons, according to call records provided to BuzzFeed News.

Neither of the calls led to any direct intervention by the sheriff's office. Information from one of the calls in 2016 — warning authorities that Cruz planned to shoot up his high school — was forwarded to the school resource officer, Scot Peterson. Peterson resigned following the revelation that he stood outside the building and did not attempt to stop Cruz from opening fire on students and teachers Feb. 14.

These tips are among at least 18 calls the sheriff's office received from 2008 to 2017 about Cruz's violent behavior, mental health issues, and possession of weapons and hate-related symbols. The sheriff's office found that Cruz's reported behavior did not violate any policies.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:18:15

Yes its much better that an unarmed coach and a junior ROTC student soak up bullets so you can keep teachers unarmed. Yep that's the ticket Ibon. I see you received your left wing talking points from CNN.

I knew when you said you were leaving the board that was a bullshit. How long did that last? Two days LOL. Whenever Trump's name is mentioned you are back here like white on rice. But its good you are back now so I can be endlessly amused.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:28:59

You will have to apologize to me first for using profane language against another member.. In accordance with the COC

1.1.2 Treat all posters equally and with respect

2.1.4 Avoid flaming and ad hominem attacks within the regular forums.
Last edited by Cog on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:29:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:29:22

For the rest of you reading what about recognizing both the nature of the fire arm and the individual together instead of endlessly trying to tease this apart like KJ also did in his post.

If no one here can break out of their bias contagion and tribal alliance and fixed position than why be here in the first place?

I am challenging all of you not just Cog.

Is this site capable of intelligent well reasoned compromised dialogue considering the comoplexity of the issue.

I have had dozens of guests this past week and have enjoyed the reasoned dialogue that sitting with folks face to face engenders.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:30:07

Ibon, I think you might be immersed in and fixated upon your own narrative here. That is IIRC your common caution to others including me.

FWIW, I know several teachers who are familiar with firearms and shoot regularly. In fact, two have concealed carry permits because in addition to being HS teachers, they are former cops and part time parole officers for juvenile offenders.

The only place they can not carry a weapon is the HS they work at, because TPTB in Kalifornia have banned firearms within 1000 feet of public schools. Which means that those schools are for them, the most dangerous places they frequent. Even though the HS campus they teach at has iron bars all around and metal detectors at every entrance. (My kid graduated that same HS in 1996.)

I also do not accept the viewpoint expressed by Cog or by Wayne LaPierre, president of the NRA in this matter. It appears there were several good guys on the scene with guns, and nobody stopped the active shooter during his 6 minute shooting spree.

I'd rather focus on prevention. That means the early identification of and treatment of mental illness. There are no other preventive measures I can think of, including especially any new gun control laws, that will make us safer.
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:35:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:31:23

Perhaps you should join your guests and stay in your safe space paradise Ibon. America is doing fine without you.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:38:32

Why am I not surprised the sheriff of Coward County is a Democrat


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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 20:42:50

So in a small town in Texas, a guy runs out of his house barefoot loading his AR-15 magazine, hops in a pickup truck with a guy who doesn't even know him. Engages a church mass shooter in a high speed pursuit and kills him. But four trained police officers in Broward county hide in the bushes and won't confront a school shooter.

Yeah keep telling me its better to disarm the citizenry and the cops will make it all better. LOL
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 07:10:35

KaiserJeep wrote:Ibon, I think you might be immersed in and fixated upon your own narrative here. That is IIRC your common caution to others including me.


What about addressing mental illness and fire arms? Who is stuck in an unmovable narrative? It is both sides of the debate that can't move to the middle. Read again my last posts. You have a society that produces socially isolated individuals and easy access to deadly weapons. Those who are mentally ill then become potential shooters. Addressing both sides in a constructive way is clearly the direction we will eventually go here. Restricting access to semi automatic weapons has zero to do with the 2nd amendment and nothing to do with taking away your right to own a gun.

The need to lock down schools every day and now potentially arm teachers and or have trained police officers on site is the result of not having addressed this issue for decades. It's like an arms race.

The absurdity of this situation seen from outside the US is glaring. As are the statistics when comparing say Australia to the US and the way each country has managed this issue. There is objectivity when you stand outside looking in. I do trust that millennials when they age and flex their political muscle will eventually vote in representatives who resolve this.

Enough said.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 08:25:35

Except that 6.5 million AR-15's were sold when a rumor was started about gun control. That says that the ownership of this exact firearm design is far more popular among Millenials than prior generations.

Nor will restricting access to new AR-15s reduce the rate of mental illness. I'm not sure what will bring about such a reduction, but once the desire to kill exists, I for one want these sick people fixated on relatively harmless small arms. The most approprriate example of the kind of thing that can happen otherwise was 9/11, which was just shy of 3000 casualties. That's the sort of "outside the box" thinking about killing that we want to avoid.

You seem to be the one fixated upon an inappropriate response. Not to mention that gun violence has been on an uninteruppted decline for 25 years. Look back over your own response to a non-issue.

I am suggesting that we address the mental illness. In the case of Cruz I suggested that his mental condition possibly resulted from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, and you led a chorus of people to suggest that I have made a rascist remark. Yet the visible markers for this disease are in plain sight in the published photographs, in distorted facial features and in under-developed ear cartilage.
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Why is it that you are so intolerant of the suggestion that there might be an actual clinical basis for his mental disfunction, because he was exposed to toxic alcohol in the womb? It does not excuse what he did, and if true, would have been a legitimate reason to deny ready access to firearms to somebody who likely does not possess the ability to reason out more deadly alternatives.
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Do you even want a solution? Are you going to overlook or ignore the possibility that no solution may be necessary? Remember that media manipulation is in play here. Those who specialize in manipulating others, who have made careers out of that very thing, have been inside your head. Decide if you care and whether or not you will make the effort to reason through such manipulation.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby dissident » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 10:38:19

Cog wrote:So in a small town in Texas, a guy runs out of his house barefoot loading his AR-15 magazine, hops in a pickup truck with a guy who doesn't even know him. Engages a church mass shooter in a high speed pursuit and kills him. But four trained police officers in Broward county hide in the bushes and won't confront a school shooter.

Yeah keep telling me its better to disarm the citizenry and the cops will make it all better. LOL


This is the usual pattern. Bureaucrats with badges are not too keen to risk their lives. That is also why they keep on shooting unarmed black guys in the back. Chicken shit, 9 to 5 "civil servants".

Since the US is swimming in guns of all sorts already, gun control is not going to work. In fact, it is an epic fail in schools. If anyone could use guns in schools, it would make them safer. If this thinking makes you cringe and fall in a spasm of cognitive dissonance, then have airport style security in schools where guns cannot make it past the x-ray scanner checkpoints. This requires the school grounds to be cordoned off with security fences as well so that lunch-time massacres could not be staged.

There is something seriously wrong when these schizos can traipse into their schools loaded with assault rifles. No, banning guns is not going to solve such gross, criminal incompetence.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 10:51:05

A). Let’s tone things down a bit. There is too much hostility on this thread.

I get that emotions are raw on all sides, all the more reason to engage in restrained debate. To take things to a slightly absurd point, it is UNRESTRAINED emotions that lead to such tradgedies.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 10:56:16

Some years ago after a similar incident a (far left) liberal commentator in Philly made an interesting observation. I’ll try to summarize......

The simple fact is that guns have permeated our society. There is no rolling that back, they exist. Bans will not work, there are far too many in unlawful hands. That ship has sailed. What is needed is some more thoughtful plan to change how our society views and handles guns. It will not be a fast transition, but it is the only option with a chance of improving the situation.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 19:46:36

I guess we are showing that we are no better than the general population in our inflammatory tones and polarized positions. One thing is certain that as long as these attitudes continue without true conciliatory intent, no headway will be made on this or related issues
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