Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Florida shooting

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 15:31:41

EG, semi-auto guns, both handguns, rifles, and shotguns, are NOT "over the top", anymore than are automatic transmissions in cars. It is a matter of user preference alone. The ultimate long range sniper rifles, some of the deadliest small arms, capable of anonymous killing from a mile away, are bolt-action.

As for large capacity magazines, it sounds like you have never shot paper targets. Every time one has to break stance, eject an empty and load a full magazine, your score suffers as you reacquire the sight picture and squeeze off another round.

YES, marketing BOTH "real guns" and plastic toy guns benefit from building such to resemble the small arms used by the military. So what? That would be what people prefer to buy. Just the mere RUMOR that Obama was gonna ban the sale of such weapons sold 6.5 million AR-15 variants, it had far more impact than marketing.

One of the things that MIGHT POSSIBLY HELP is mandatory gun safety classes. I attended a Junior High School with a rifle range in the basement where .22 Short top-break single shot rifles were used. About a decade before I attended in the mid-1960's, they quit using it, and they stopped firearms safety training. The rate of firearms accidents has been increasing since.

In the absence of 100% firearms safety training, what was left was TV. Every night, we saw cowboys and cops and private detectives kill people with guns. A kid who gets NO TRAINING from his parents gets all of it from TV. TV teaches you that you put a gun in your hand, point it at another person, pull the trigger, and live happily ever after.

I only had one kid, and she was not at all interested in guns. However I insisted that she know and understand basic firearm safety. As a young kid, there are two rules:

1) If you or one of your friends finds a gun, do not touch it. Find an adult and tell them.

2) If one of your friends has a gun, do not touch it, do not say anything about it, do not confront them. Leave immediately, find an adult, and tell them.

There are other things to learn if the kid is interested in guns. Mine was not.

We had words with both her school and the local Girl Scout Council over this topic. Amazingly, both felt it was better to never mention the topic of firearms at all. As far as I am concerned, that is a tragedy waiting to happen. Pardon me for pointing this out, but if you never recieved basic gun safety training, you remain ignorant of an important topic. Your opinion of guns in the absence of such training is worthless.

If you want to learn more about this topic, sign up for a gun safety course in your community. Note that most such are free and don't even require you to own a gun, they will furnish a loaner. I have completed two such courses over the decades, in addition to some really intensive safety training in USCG Boot Camp in the early 1970s, involving the "big bad" M1911 .45 caliber pistol, and the M-16A1, a selectable fire weapon that had options for semi-automatic and fully automatic fire (yep a REAL "Assault Weapon", which we called an "Infantry Rifle").

This in spite of the fact that I have never had more than a brief interest in firing guns. I do own a 12g pump shotgun, plus my Father's M1911 service pistol (he was a career military officer), plus his first guns, a .22 rifle and a .410 shotgun, plus a muzzle-loading .45 caliber rifle that I used to fire (black powder guns are FUN but a lot of work). Maybe my grandkids will get those, if either shows any interest. But you can bet that they will both get safety training to go with the guns, and before they touch them.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 18:16:54

Evil has the right idea. It is RIDICULOUS at this juncture to either do nothing OR advocate that teachers carry guns. Pure ridiculousness as are most of the arguments put forth by the NRA and politicians in it's pay.

Owners of particular classes of guns need to be registered AND the number of their guns registered as well. Nobody is going to come breaking down doors, BUT as with drug offenses, for instance, they already break down doors and this should be handled no differently.

This is a step in the right direction. A state like Florida should not allow anyone under 21 to own an assault rifle. If they lived in Montana or Wyoming or Alaska, it is very different, of course.

The problem is that the NRA doesn't want ANY CHANGE AT ALL and that is the nub of the issue right now.
User avatar
jedrider
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2410
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 10:10:44

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 18:23:58

The problem is that the NRA doesn't want ANY CHANGE AT ALL and that is the nub of the issue right now.


Yes, the pro-gun people just don't want to compromise !
Rapid fire capability and guns should simply be outlawed period.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10959
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 19:22:53

Thank you both for your opinions. :mrgreen:
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 20:06:08

KaiserJeep wrote:Thank you both for your opinions. :mrgreen:

In the end no panacea exists. It is a structural problem of the unique American culture and idiosyncrasies
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10959
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 20:30:26

onlooker wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:Thank you both for your opinions. :mrgreen:

In the end no panacea exists. It is a structural problem of the unique American culture and idiosyncrasies


Yes, I'll agree with that. Meanwhile, the reality would be that in spite of intensive media reporting each time a mass shooting occurs, we continue to experience declining rates of gun violence, and have had such for 25 years.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 21:02:44

onlooker wrote:
The problem is that the NRA doesn't want ANY CHANGE AT ALL and that is the nub of the issue right now.


Yes, the pro-gun people just don't want to compromise !
Rapid fire capability and guns should simply be outlawed period.


Yes the Anti-Gun people refuse to acknowledge that their solutions do not work and that there are a large number of laws already in place that would have prevented this shooting if they had been properly enforced. Rather than deal with poor enforcement of existing laws they prefer to natter on endlessly about how more laws which will also not be properly enforced will magically solve the problem of gun violence!
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15995
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 21:49:32

Oh it gets better. You know how the police say that only they can protect you and the citizen is not professional enough to protect themselves? Turns out the police officer assigned to the school hid outside and never tried to engage the shooter. Meanwhile a coach and a high school ROTC student sacrificed their life unarmed to help other students get away. Yeah go ahead and trust your life to cops who are minutes away when seconds count. Good job Barney Fife. At least you went home safe.

It has been policy in police departments since Columbine that you immediately engage a mass shooter without delay. The reason for that is most mass shooters will immediately flee or commit suicide when confronted with armed force.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sheriff-ar ... -shooting/

PARKLAND, Fla. -- The armed school resource officer assigned to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School "never went in" last Wednesday while a gunman opened fire on students with an AR-15 rifle, Broward Sheriff Scott Israel said. The massacre police say was perpetrated by former student Nikolas Cruz left 17 dead and 15 wounded.

Scot Peterson, the school resource deputy, was "absolutely" on campus through the event, armed and in uniform, Israel said Thursday. After seeing video and reviewing witness statements and Peterson's own statement, Israel said he decided to suspend Peterson without pay pending an internal investigation.

Peterson chose to resign, Israel said.

Israel said the video shows Peterson arriving at the west side of Building 12 and taking up a position, but he didn't go inside. Israel said Peterson "clearly" knew there was a shooter in the building and was outside for about four minutes. The shooting lasted about six minutes, Israel said.

When asked what the deputy should have done, Israel said, "Went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13417
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 01:00:53

PBS News Hour gave a timeline. Peterson arrived on scene 2 minutes into the 6 minute shooting spree by Cruz. He did not ever enter the building and did not confront the shooter. During the period he was there and did not act two thirds of the total shots were fired. It is possible that had Peterson acted he could have saved 10-12 people.

I understand that he was out-gunned, and would have been confronting somebody with an AR-15 while armed with a 9mm pistol. I understand that a large part of his job is outdoors, and that during most of the year, wearing armor all day is not possible in the brutal Florida heat. However, he was a trained law enforcement officer confronting an untrained 19 year old "suspect" in the act of multiple murder. He did nothing.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 07:34:05

For those who believe only muskets are protected by the 2nd Amendment, SCOTUS believes other wise.

DC V Heller

"Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35-36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding".
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13417
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:07:17

I just heard that Trump wants to eliminate bump stocks. Maybe, somebody else can confirm that?
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10959
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:35:43

Again, PBS News Hour as source. Trump said in response to a very leading question from a media reporter, that such an action could be considered. He did not volunteer that it was already on the table nor admit to supporting the idea.

AFAIK Cruz did not use a bump stock in Florida. He had a conventional AR-15 and legal (in Florida) high capacity magazines for it. The bump stock user was the Las Vegas shooter in October 2017.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:37:05

onlooker wrote:I just heard that Trump wants to eliminate bump stocks. Maybe, somebody else can confirm that?


Depends on how you interpret it. You would need legislation to ban bump stocks unless the BATFE simply ignores the definition of what constitutes the difference between a semi-automatic and full automatic.

Bump stocks might be offered up but Trump will want something the Dems don't want as part of that. Remember how he played them on DACA?
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13417
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:55:26

IMHO there is little harm to a ban on bump stocks. Certainly, they are entertaining, but the weapon sights are not usable during bump firing, so one is reduced to "spray and pray" simulated full auto fire.

Speaking as one who had a few opportunities to fire the M-16A1 on full auto, that is fairly useless as well, the only legitimate use is to repel a mass attack, firing into a human wave. Which is what the Las Vegas shooter was doing, firing into a dense crowd.

Just on principle I don't like the precedent being set. But if Trump can trade off new sales of bump stocks against something of real value that the silly gun control people want, it's a bargaining chip.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 13:05:29

Cog wrote:For those who believe only muskets are protected by the 2nd Amendment, SCOTUS believes other wise.

DC V Heller

"Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications, e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27, 35-36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding".


It makes no difference if the Supreme Court decides that machine guns are protected, if a registry along the lines I've suggested were implemented. I'm not suggesting an infringement. What I'm suggesting is a public resource, which the public can use as they see fit. What I'm talking about would inform the public about who owns what which is pertinent to the discussion of mass killing. Since merely getting onto the registry is not an infringement of ownership, the registry can include things that hover on the borderline, erring on the side of caution. The only way it could be construed as an infringement might be that it was required. To make certain, however, that it not meet more legal definitions I propose it not cost purchasers or sellers any money. I'm not suggesting banning anything. To put teeth into it the law merely has to say that should a seller not report a buyer and the buyer then commit any crime involving what was sold, then the seller would face some stiff penalty. What I am suggesting is placing this argument into the public sphere, where people's reactions reign. If gun owners feel disenfranchised or discriminated against, they can file a lawsuit. I've no doubt they would win many such suits.

Suffice it to say that the US is rife with various inequalities which go unaddressed by the legal system. I've cited the position of homosexuals in the workforce in a previous post. There are others, up to and including the place of corporations in relation to the people. These things nag at the rest of us, but there are no precedents which can be cited to bring about redress of grievances. Gun owners currently enjoy protection behind the 2nd Amendment, but in doing so they are failing the rest of us in the same way that the school protection officer failed those students. He would probably have been killed by the kid with the gun, but nobody knows for sure. In like manner gun owners defending themselves in court would provide legal precedent for many who seek justice in our system, but cannot find it. Gun owners might lose, but the threat of them trying alone would come with a certain gravitas of its own. The seriousness of it, as well, the realization that gun ownership is not a game or a box to tick off brought about by observing the struggle, might actually bring down the number of accidental gun deaths in a given year. Of course, it might bring it up too. It depends upon how the people react.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3048
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 13:15:55

@ evilgenius I would like to come over to your house and look for things you don't "Need". Obviously if you don't need it, you should not have it. Let me know when its a convenient time to swing by. Thanks
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13417
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 13:32:35

Cog wrote:@ evilgenius I would like to come over to your house and look for things you don't "Need". Obviously if you don't need it, you should not have it. Let me know when its a convenient time to swing by. Thanks


What it means, actually, is that such overstepping would add to the definition of what constitutes privacy. If someone were fired for being on the registry for owning something that they could argue successfully shouldn't have landed them on the registry, then it would set a precedent which others could use to argue for setting the boundaries of the notion of privacy. It would no longer have to be teased out of some clause in the Constitution. There would be a much harder definition, and a means to argue for further definition. Now, in man's relation to technology, is that needed or not?
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3048
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 13:42:25

You wish to explore the right to privacy by invading people's right to privacy?

Are you feeling well?
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 13417
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 13:59:54

Cog wrote:You wish to explore the right to privacy by invading people's right to privacy?

Are you feeling well?

I never said anything about telling people they have to reveal what they own prior to the implementation of the registry. I'm talking about the result of all sales or other such things which involve the transfer of anything which the registry involves. I figure that if a person is a particular type of person their character will show through and they won't be able to resist getting that one new thing here and there. They might stockpile ammunition which might also put them on the registry, but at some point they will want more. There would, of course, be a proviso for those who might land on the registry through inheritance. They could chose to forfeit such a thing, maybe even for a compensatory payment, or be able to turn such things over for destruction, should they receive them in such a manner. Eventually, all ownership would be included. The right to privacy lies on the boundaries, what should and should not be included in the registry. That sort of thing is decided by the public's right to know versus the individual's right to privacy. That's an issue for the courts, both as gun owners feel offended and as the public encounter new threats, and for those who initially write the law.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 3048
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 23 Feb 2018, 14:29:17

Most of the above posts are nonsense.

Spoons do not make people obese, people eating too many calories do that.

Pencils do not cause mis-spelled words, the pencil operator does that.

Guns do not cause mass shootings, sick people do that.

You are not going to fix sick people by restricting their access to firearms. That puts them into an internet search for ways of killing independant of firearms. You really, really don't want to go there, as there are some astonishing things to be found. Having such sick people fixated on small arms IMHO keeps the casualties minimal.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

PreviousNext

Return to North America Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests