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Florida shooting

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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 22:09:25

About Cruz: We know he murdered those 17 people, and wounded more, because he confessed. We know he was "troubled", and had been in treatment for some unnamed mental disease for some period. We know he was still able to buy weapons quite legally because he passed the background check in the FBI database.

FAS is also real, the most acute in the FASD (fetal alcohol spectrum disorder) and is caused by a mother who drank excessive amounts of alcohol during pregnancy. It afflicts up to 1% or so of the births in the USA. It is not related to genetics, rather to alcohol toxins in the blood from any time from conception to birth.
https://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0715/p279.html
..diagnosis of FAS requires that the person display at least three of the seven recognized facial anomalies, plus there are other anomalies in the cartilage of the ear and the hand.

We know that Cruz was removed from his birth family by the State of Florida, then experienced a series of foster homes and had been in his present home (the Sneads) for approximately three months when the shooting occurred.

As for the mixed race remark, that's a guess, based upon a Hispanic surname and a Russian first name.

My only point about the whole gun control debate would be that we already have legislated far more gun controls than we use. The requirement that dangerous people be added to the FBI database to prevent them from purchasing firearms is one such, as there are approximately 10-25 million people who are being treated for mental disease, who are not in the database. I believe that whoever was treating this particular 19 year old knew or should have known that he was dangerous, and removed his ability tto legally buy a weapon.

You all assume that we can wave the legislative magic wand and make things better. I just don't think so, as laws don't help unless you enforce them. Additionally I have pointed out that in spite of common perceptions to the contrary, we ARE safer from gun violence every day.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 02:50:18

Further grist for the mill:

A Cure for Mass Shootings Doesn't Exist
There are no plausible options that offer more than the faintest prospect of preventing the next massacre.
Steve Chapman | February 18, 2018

Every time there is a mass shooting, a chorus goes up: "We must do something to keep this from happening again. We can't tolerate it any longer."

Revulsion understandably creates a demand for remedies. But every time, we do nothing, to the fury of those who denounce the inaction as shameful.

There is a simple explanation, though, for the inaction. It's not that the National Rifle Association is all-powerful, that too many Americans are blind to reason, or that most are complacent about wanton slaughter. It's that there are no plausible options that offer more than the faintest prospect of preventing a massacre in the next year or the next decade.

Our constitutional framework was not designed to facilitate drastic government action. It was designed to prevent it in the absence of a clear and durable public consensus. In this instance, there is none.

Mass shootings are a horrific problem that is peculiarly resistant to solutions. To a great extent, public policy is impotent. Until the advocates of new restrictions can make the case that they would make a difference, little is likely to happen.

What answers do they offer? One is reinstituting the federal ban on "assault weapons" and high-capacity magazines that was in effect from 1994 to 2004. Another is expanding the federal background check system to cover private sales. Another is to make it easier to flag people with mental health problems and bar sales to them.

These are not necessarily wrong, but they are unpromising. Though an AR-15 may be particularly useful for mass shootings, there are many substitutes that fire just as rapidly and use equally destructive ammunition. A ban on high-capacity magazines would be a puny impediment to someone like the killer in Parkland, Florida.

Mass shooters, Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck told me, "always use multiple guns and/or multiple magazines, enabling them to easily fire many rounds quickly even if they had only smaller-capacity magazines. And they do not need guns that fire fast, because they do not fire fast during their crimes." The Parkland shooter had multiple magazines.

A 2013 study of the 1994 law for the National Institute of Justice said, "We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation's recent drop in gun violence." It also said, "Should it be renewed, the ban's effects on gun violence are likely to be small at best and perhaps too small for reliable measurement."

Even if the law had any positive effect then, it would be far less likely to help today, because there are far more of these guns now. In 1994, Americans owned about 1.5 million "assault weapons." The number is now around 8 million.

Restoring the 1994 law would not eliminate them. It would only block new sales—and foster new models engineered to get around the new rules. People would be able to keep and buy the "assault weapons" already out there.

Background checks for private sales would make it harder for felons to acquire guns. But mass shooters have typically gotten their arms legally from licensed dealers as the alleged killer in Parkland did.

Yes, it might make a difference if the United States emulated Australia by outlawing certain guns and requiring owners to surrender them. Constitutional issues aside, that sort of law couldn't be passed here—or enforced. It belongs in the realm of fantasy.

Broadening the exclusion for mental health problems would mean penalizing millions of people who pose no danger. It would also deter troubled gun owners from seeking treatment.

"To say no one with mental illness should have a gun—how do you accomplish that?" Ronald Honberg, senior policy adviser for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, asked The New York Times. "Does that mean anybody that goes to a therapist for depression or anxiety should be reported and put in a database and prohibited from purchasing a firearm? That would impact a fair number of police officers."

None of this is to argue against any changes whatsoever. Some reforms could modestly reducing gun crime without putting much of a burden on law-abiding gun owners. Universal background checks, banning bump stocks, and improving databases to prevent the omission of people who are barred from purchasing guns could help diminish gun violence.

Outrage is an appropriate response to the carnage in Parkland, but it's not an answer. Those demanding dramatic action accuse those who disagree of enabling murder. But it's no sin to reject false remedies.


Original article is here: http://reason.com/archives/2018/02/18/a-cure-for-mass-shootings-doesnt-exist
However, this quote includes 100% of the text.

Even if one were to improperly label the AR-15 variations as "assault rifles" (which they are not), there is an obvious numerical disparity involved. The US government has just over 2 million troops in all the Armed Forces and the eight ready reserves. They have enough REAL "assault rifles" (i.e. the fully automatic kind) to equip way less than half of these troops. Arguably they have more than they actually need, which why they sell infantry rifles such as the WW2 era M1 to US civilians through the CMP (civilian marksmanship program).

However, as the article above mentions, US civilians have 8 million AR-15 variants, the semi-automatic versions of the REAL "assault weapons". They are way better armed than the US government, when it comes to small arms.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 03:41:46

Ibon wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
People's intuition about the good or evil of someone (i.e. by their race, their clothes, their posture, etc) are about as useful as their intuitions about what is true or false vs. the body of scientific evidence. (Which is by no means perfect, but a HELL of a lot better than rantings about ghosts or a flat earth or AGW based on their personal intuition).


Scientific racism employs anthropology (notably physical anthropology), anthropometry, craniometry, and other disciplines or pseudo-disciplines, in proposing anthropological typologies supporting the classification of human populations into physically discrete human races, that might be asserted to be superior or inferior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism

Wow. I hadn't realized there was an entire SET of such things, used in such a way. (Given human nature, it should have dawned on me).

The example I had heard about in a "skeptics" meeting (a group trying to educate people about science and debunk pseudo-science, in the spirit of the Skeptical Enquirer), was phrenology, about 25 years ago.

Apparently it, along with craniometry (i.e. from your quoted list), has claimed to be able to predict human intelligence or other traits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craniometry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptical_Inquirer

When I grew up (60's and 70's) it could be difficult to ascertain the truth about things people told you. (You might not have the right book. Your encyclopedia close at hand, if any, might be decades old. Etc.) Now, at least one can try to get multiple (hopefully credible) sources on the internet, and have a shot at quickly applying a "sanity check". (I'm kind of appalled at how many things my mother told me which I believed were true until finding out, sometimes decades later that -- nope, utter nonsense, which she was probably told by an adult).

And yet, people still are so prone to go with instinct, intuition, etc. I guess we just really don't learn easily.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:55:33

The biggest deal with mass shootings is their place in the public consciousness. I was just reading in some news story that there is a 13 day period within which one shooting can lead to another. But the idea doesn't go away after that period. When alienated people consider what comes into their heads sometimes the idea sticks. The angle that will eventually work will have to deal with that. It will have to make entertaining the idea something that a person in that position would refuse as it came to them. A conveyance of expectation from society that even a person in that kind of despair would listen to. This kind of thing happens all the time. People make decisions based upon how society views a thing. Kids are especially vulnerable to it. That's why schools, which are our primary means of socializing people, won't change, even if that is what is required. This is the area people are afraid to do science on. And even more afraid to apply science. They would much rather go on about how they have free will. Whether people do or not is actually up for debate. One place where it may exist, however, may be with the originators of conspiracy theory who know that the victims of these tragedies are not actors, but spread that message anyway because they calculate that doing so will bring them something.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 13:40:03

I'll say this one more time. Incorrect perceptions to the contrary, we are enjoying a 25 year long trend of decreasing gun violence. Nothing is needed or should be done to change the situation, and there is no known way to prevent many mentally ill people from having access to guns, that does not infringe the rights of others.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 14:39:23

evilgenius wrote:The biggest deal with mass shootings is their place in the public consciousness. I was just reading in some news story that there is a 13 day period within which one shooting can lead to another. But the idea doesn't go away after that period.


The contagion affect is real and this comes from being tribal and social animals. Think about how a socially isolated and angry individual who lacks any kind of healthy organic tribal affiliation can be drawn by the contagion affect to copy his Columbine heroes!

By the way, this is very much related to political polarity. Americans, often fragmented and isolated from community, tend to be affected by the contagion affect in their addiction to social media and the internet. Lacking organic connections, they become easily manipulated.

The Russians figured this out. So have I.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 14:51:33

I want to really point out to all of you who persist on using social media as part of your social life to consider the following. Think about how the news media and social media is documenting the school shooting and immediately politicizing it. This is what most of you are digesting, a digital and distilled version. I am now going to share with you another version. A real organic version. One of my best friends is a public school teacher in Broward County and the school she teaches in is less than 5 miles from the school in Parkland where the shooting took place. I am copying her e-mail to me below. I would like you guys to contrast her experience of this shooting being part of an organic community where it took place and comparing this to social media and the news which happens to be the way most of socially isolated Americans get their "community fix"

Hi Jeff,
Yes, we are in the middle of yet another movement....a group of young people who are not taking this sitting down. This particular high school is located in Parkland with expensive real estate. Many of these students are smart and well funded and they are taking it with the passion that comes from the raw feelings of a total travesty that could have been avoided if the system had some common sense. We are actually getting ready for a walk out tomorrow. Students throughout our county are going to walk out of school and protest the lack of gun control that enables people to buy automatic weapons. There are many people including our local sheriff who has publicly agreed that these automatic weapons should not be legal. In addition, Boca High School had a walk out today and the students walked all the way to Parkland. The high school is closed but is has become a memorial for people to come and bring flowers and candles.Their principal joined the walk out and said he stood by his students.
On my end, we have laid off the academics and are focused on healing. I had an incredible few days at school, there are many people both students and teachers that know someone who was affected directly by this incident. We have taken to singing!!! I can't even describe what happened in my classroom but they are singing songs like Rise Up by Andra Day.
Andra Day - Rise Up (Lyrics)


Andra Day - Rise Up (Lyrics)
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:01:38

Give the students a test on protest day. Make it half of their semester grade. If they walk out of class give them an F.


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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:05:43

From Ibon's post:

Students throughout our county are going to walk out of school and protest the lack of gun control that enables people to buy automatic weapons.

LOL the derp of the left in that they still don't understand the difference between a semi-automatic rifle and a fully automatic rifle. Show me the gun store in Florida that will sell me a full auto rifle and I'll fly down there right now and buy one. In fact I will buy a dozen of them.

Why are you trying to ban something that is already illegal? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 15:14:15

Ibon, you are saying that a bunch of minor aged students are going to walk out of school and sing Kum Ba Yah, or something close.

[sarc] Yeah, that'll do a lot of good. [/sarc]

You cannot legislate sanity, responsibility, nor safety. Like somebody said before, if you want to eliminate DUI, you don't start by confiscating all the cars from the sober drivers.

I can offer something that might work better. If Cruz is found guilty (and remember he confessed after a Miranda warning) then we should publicize the name of his mental health practitioner, and allow civil suits against that person by the survivors of Cruz's victims.

The gun control laws exist already, far more than we ever use. We have long known that such laws do not prevent criminals from arming themselves (surprise, suprise). Now we have learned yet again that mentally ill people, who have uttered specific threats against a school and students, are also not deterred from gun ownership, because their names are not being placed in the FBI database.

It's simply not working because nobody takes it seriously, except for the afore-mentioned 13 days following another shooting. More laws won't help. Enforcement of the laws we already have might possibly help.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 16:17:31

Gun control has never been about controlling crime. Its always been about controlling you.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 18:33:59

Cog wrote:Gun control has never been about controlling crime. Its always been about controlling you.


Gun control at the end of the day is what the electorate will decide at the voting booth in the representatives they elect. I posed the question regarding this topic being a possible rallying issue for the maturing millennials as they reach the age where they start to flex their political muscles.

What about your daughter Cog. What is her position?
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 20:12:23

I haven't asked my daughter about how she views the Second Amendment. Not that it would matter. My right to bear arms was not granted by the government nor can it be taken away by a vote. There exists a natural right to protect self and family that precedes the Constitution. Research what the Founders meant by inalienable rights.

You can kill me and thereby interfere with my rights, but I don't see you volunteering to be a door-kicker Ibon.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 23:57:06

Ibon, it seems like you don't want to admit that target shooting is a legitimate firearms hobby. Likewise hunting is a legitimate application of a firearm to feed people. (It certainly is in both Arkansas and Oklahoma, where my parents are from.)

There are an estimated 82 guns per each 100 people in the USA, and that number keeps climbing. It's pretty clear that Americans like it that way, and it's not changing soon, and that is why we do not and will not use the gun control laws we have. Also, whatever you did about new gun sales, there are already those 250 million guns in civilian hands, about 500% as many small arms as the various government agencies including the US military have.

The October 2017 Las Vegas gunman had multiple firearms and in the end fired 1,100 rounds into a crowd of 20,000. He killed 58 and wounded 851 more. As I have said before, applying an engineer's problem solving ability to the objective of killing, I could improvise the means to at least triple his total dead and wounded, without even resorting to a single firearm.

The difference is that the mass killers are deranged, and I am not. I have no desire to kill anyone. Nor is there anything that you can do in terms of new firearms purchases, that will affect the 250 million firearms already in America. If you want to get serious about stopping mass killings, then get serious about monitoring the mental health of people and treating them before they do harm. But while you go about that, remember that both the USSR and the Nazis did that very thing, and abused the practice greatly. In the end, it was not about protecting other people, it was about imposing the government's politics on the opposition.

I actually believe that having 250 million firearms in the USA goes a long way towards minimizing the number of people killed. Having firearms available makes them an obvious choice when somebody gets sick enough to want to kill others. Like I said, I could do lots better, as if fact could most people if guns were not available. The last thing you really want is for those sick individuals who have access to the internet looking for other ways to kill. Which is why I never described any details for turning an LNG tanker ship into a WMD. Just because I'll never do that, does not mean that a sick person is not dreaming of destroying a city with such.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 00:29:27

It appears the conversation is starting. These assault weapons are part of an infantile fantasy that really needs to be de-legitimized. I would hope some new laws will come out of it that have some chance of being effective without being unduly invasive.

1. Create the category of assault weapon, maybe, based upon fire rate.
2. Raise the age to 21 to be able to own and carry such a weapon.
3. License these gun owners. Make them pay the cost to society.
4. Be as strict with gun ownership and psychotic drug use as we are with drinking and driving.
(I don't support requiring psychologists/psychiatrists to report to a database. No one would
seek psychiatric care if they did.)

The NRA would be against all of the above, we we know there is room for improvement.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 00:46:05

If you haven't figured out why the Second Amendment was written by now, you will never figure it out. I'm past caring if you ever figure it out. Pass your laws, regulations, and whatever restrictions you think will make you safe. I'll be ignoring all of them. You want my guns badly enough, then come get them.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 09:14:23

jedrider wrote:It appears the conversation is starting. These assault weapons are part of an infantile fantasy that really needs to be de-legitimized. I would hope some new laws will come out of it that have some chance of being effective without being unduly invasive.

1. Create the category of assault weapon, maybe, based upon fire rate.
2. Raise the age to 21 to be able to own and carry such a weapon.
3. License these gun owners. Make them pay the cost to society.
4. Be as strict with gun ownership and psychotic drug use as we are with drinking and driving.
(I don't support requiring psychologists/psychiatrists to report to a database. No one would
seek psychiatric care if they did.)

The NRA would be against all of the above, we we know there is room for improvement.


That's about as silly a statement as I have read in this thread. Yet I appreciate the fact that you are trying.

1. Fully automatic firearms are already banned. Semi-automatic firearms like an AR-15 fire one and only one round for each trigger pull.
2. In many states all weapons including shotguns and rifles and all handguns, must be bought by people 21 and over. They are not distingishably safer than those where the age is 18. The Federal law says 18 presently for handguns, with no minimum for long guns. The states are all over the map, in some the age is 14 for long guns (younger than a driver's license).
3. All states charge fees for background checks and gun registration by serial number. In some places the gun dealer is allowed to pay these fees and often does so. Again, no distinguishable difference.
4. You have used some undefined terms. What are "psychotic drugs"? The FBI database already exists, as do existing laws requiring that it be used. It is used for criminals, BTW, and it does work in that case in the sense that anybody failing a background check cannot buy a firearm at WalMart. Instead they have to purchase such guns illegally. The criteria for listing mentally ill people are broad, but still, are not being used.

All of you are still making the same basic mistake. No amount of new laws about firearms purchases will prevent gun violence, for many reasons but mainly because there are already 250 million small arms in civilian hands. This happens to include 8 million AR-15 variants. Just as with DUIs and accidents caused by speeding, the only thing that actually helps is enforcement of such laws. But clearly, it is only after a mass shooting event such as in Florida that the topic even comes up.

You cannot legislate the problem away. You also cannot legislate treatment for mental health issues. Such treatment can only be mandated after a legal proceeding declaring a person mentally incompetent and making them a ward of the state. These laws were enacted in the early 20th century after a series of abuses at the state level. These were essentially the same abuses found in Nazi Germany and the USSR.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby Cog » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:33:33

There you go again KJ, bringing facts into an emotional discussion. :-D
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:35:24

I'll say it again, there should be a registry. The registry shouldn't contain the names of anyone owning a standard hunting rifle or pistol. It should contain the names of people who own semi-auto rifles, bump stocks, silencers, large capacity magazines and all other over the top gun related items. Organizations like schools or businesses that employ people, or individuals who are doing something like checking out a neighborhood where they are thinking about buying a house could look up the situation. If a school knows that a student, or ex-student owns such a weapon they could mount a more extensive campaign to keep them off of their premises. If a business deems that a person who owns such things is a threat they could escort them from their premises, and hire guards for a period of time to keep them from coming back or install a security system that might keep them out. If a couple sees that someone down the street from where they are considering buying is on the list they could choose to overlook that property and buy elsewhere. People on the list could be denied loans, or required to pay higher interest rates.

This pertains to what makes the contagion, a social acceptance of these things. Not even a social acceptance, but a remorseless embracing of them in the face of death, a cheering squad for guns that encourages bent people to believe in their own use of them. Yes, eventually the people who own these things would fight back, in the courts. That's the way it should be. The resultant battles would also go a long way in recognizing the rights of other marginalized groups in society. If gun owners win, then maybe homosexuals could use that precedent to ensure they can't be fired from their jobs for being homosexual. If gun owners win, then maybe black people could gain some ground against being pulled over for being black.

The registry itself can be fashioned so that it does not constitute an infringement. It can come with no costs to the purchasers. The actions taken as a result of it would be those of private entities, not the government.
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Re: Florida shooting

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:43:03

Cog wrote:Give the students a test on protest day. Make it half of their semester grade. If they walk out of class give them an F.


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I'm sure you've been through what they have, so you feel empowered to make suggestions.
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