Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Energy Epiphany

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby AdamB » Sun 16 Jan 2022, 16:52:00

Polybius wrote:Modern "money" is a claim on existing energy supply/deposit's future ability to do "work", when that money is spent/exchanged/actualized in the context of a society that still has readily access to available net energy for use. Thus money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/producitivty multiplier effect" of energy.


Saying it don't make it so. Are you suffering from some sort of disease that requires you to say the same wrong things endlessly, in the hopes that this form of gaslighting works on the weak minded or something? DOES it work on the weak minded, sort of like a cult, a leader says stupid stuff very seriously, people begin to believe, they all repeat the same crap, and presto you are a Branch Davidian?

And do you REALLY need to then begin weaving run of the mill conspiracy nonsense into the mess?
StarvingPuutyTat says: I'm so confident in my TOTAL COLLAPSE is IMMINENT prediction that I stake my entire reputation on it. It will happen this year. - Aug 3-2020

Mustang19 says: Mods, I am just here to troll the trolls. I mean no harm.
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7446
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Polybius » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 13:33:09

AdamB wrote:
Polybius wrote:Modern "money" is a claim on existing energy supply/deposit's future ability to do "work", when that money is spent/exchanged/actualized in the context of a society that still has readily access to available net energy for use. Thus money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/producitivty multiplier effect" of energy.


Saying it don't make it so. Are you suffering from some sort of disease that requires you to say the same wrong things endlessly, in the hopes that this form of gaslighting works on the weak minded or something? DOES it work on the weak minded, sort of like a cult, a leader says stupid stuff very seriously, people begin to believe, they all repeat the same crap, and presto you are a Branch Davidian?

And do you REALLY need to then begin weaving run of the mill conspiracy nonsense into the mess?


https://www.theartist.me/tech/what-is-nft-art/

NFTs are the new fucking bubble, sheeples are literally investing in jpg images of tulips now....

Its the EROEI, stupid
Polybius
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:37:51
Location: Arlington/Dallas

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 15:45:51

Polybius wrote:
AdamB wrote:And do you REALLY need to then begin weaving run of the mill conspiracy nonsense into the mess?


https://www.theartist.me/tech/what-is-nft-art/


'https://www.sillystuffpeopleontheinternetpretendisreal.com/

Polybius wrote:NFTs are the new fucking bubble, sheeples are literally investing in jpg images of tulips now....

Its the EROEI, stupid


Its you being stupid, stupid. Don't like NFT's? Don't invest in them. This is peakoil.com, not suckersforconspiracycrapwhodon'tknowsquataboutenergy.com
StarvingPuutyTat says: I'm so confident in my TOTAL COLLAPSE is IMMINENT prediction that I stake my entire reputation on it. It will happen this year. - Aug 3-2020

Mustang19 says: Mods, I am just here to troll the trolls. I mean no harm.
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7446
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Doly » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 16:58:22

Modern "money" is a claim on existing energy supply/deposit's future ability to do "work", when that money is spent/exchanged/actualized in the context of a society that still has readily access to available net energy for use. Thus money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/producitivty multiplier effect" of energy.


The problem with that theory is that a lot of the work people do doesn't actually require vast amounts of energy.
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4146
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Polybius » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 21:40:26

AdamB wrote:
Polybius wrote:
AdamB wrote:And do you REALLY need to then begin weaving run of the mill conspiracy nonsense into the mess?


https://www.theartist.me/tech/what-is-nft-art/


'https://www.sillystuffpeopleontheinternetpretendisreal.com/

Polybius wrote:NFTs are the new fucking bubble, sheeples are literally investing in jpg images of tulips now....

Its the EROEI, stupid


Its you being stupid, stupid. Don't like NFT's? Don't invest in them. This is peakoil.com, not suckersforconspiracycrapwhodon'tknowsquataboutenergy.com



https://youtu.be/5fd6KDwVP_Q?t=90

The iSheeple's thinking a jpeg image is "worth" a billion dollars don't realize there isn't the oil under the ground to back that up...

Like I said:

We are essentially, for all intents and purposes, living in a so-called "fractional-reserve Energy economy", in that there is not a commensurate amount of energy set aside or locked away for each unit of money invested, printed, earned or saved.

If energy was accurately priced for once, then the true value of almost all other economic activities would deflate and the real state of the eCONomy would be unmasked.... that cannot be allowed to happen until the elites get out from under their positions first... hence the likes of CIA ShitCoin for the masses of iSheeple to HODL



and now add to that the pixel jpg NFTs, which is basically nothing more than a hash to a link to a database pointer of a digital image that anyone on the internet can view, download, copy, etc
Polybius
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:37:51
Location: Arlington/Dallas

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Polybius » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 21:48:38

Doly wrote:
Modern "money" is a claim on existing energy supply/deposit's future ability to do "work", when that money is spent/exchanged/actualized in the context of a society that still has readily access to available net energy for use. Thus money derives almost entirely it real purchasing power (and thus value) from the underlining "work/force/producitivty multiplier effect" of energy.


The problem with that theory is that a lot of the work people do doesn't actually require vast amounts of energy.


Wrong, everything goes back to energy as energy underpins everything....
Energy is the only thing that is real, everything else are fancy speculative derivates that ride on top of that lower layer. The so called value add...

Name any job/title/position and I can trace it back to energy being the underpinning of it all, that if it were not for energy, that job/title/position could not possibly exists.

Come on folks this is a Peak Oil site I shouldn't have to explain something this basic to someone who has been on here since 2004
Polybius
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:37:51
Location: Arlington/Dallas

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 21:52:31

Polybius wrote:The iSheeple's thinking a jpeg image is "worth" a billion dollars don't realize there isn't the oil under the ground to back that up...


Thanks for proving that your own cock and bull story about money representing oil is a crock. Money has no requirement to be the same as oil in the ground.

Polybius wrote:Like I said:


Like you keep copying and pasting you mean. I do that too!

Image
StarvingPuutyTat says: I'm so confident in my TOTAL COLLAPSE is IMMINENT prediction that I stake my entire reputation on it. It will happen this year. - Aug 3-2020

Mustang19 says: Mods, I am just here to troll the trolls. I mean no harm.
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7446
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 17 Jan 2022, 21:54:33

Polybius wrote:Come on folks this is a Peak Oil site I shouldn't have to explain something SO STUPID to someone who has been on here since 2004


Fixed your comment for you Poly.
StarvingPuutyTat says: I'm so confident in my TOTAL COLLAPSE is IMMINENT prediction that I stake my entire reputation on it. It will happen this year. - Aug 3-2020

Mustang19 says: Mods, I am just here to troll the trolls. I mean no harm.
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7446
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Doly » Tue 18 Jan 2022, 13:46:19

Name any job/title/position and I can trace it back to energy being the underpinning of it all, that if it were not for energy, that job/title/position could not possibly exists.


Glad to see you are up to the challenge. What is the energy that underpins the job of spin doctor? Because as far as I know, for as long as people have been around, there have been people more than willing to spread whatever lies were useful to the powerful of the time, irrespective of the amount of energy available, and the job usually pays well if it's done effectively.
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4146
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 18 Jan 2022, 15:04:32

Doly wrote:
Name any job/title/position and I can trace it back to energy being the underpinning of it all, that if it were not for energy, that job/title/position could not possibly exists.


Glad to see you are up to the challenge. What is the energy that underpins the job of spin doctor? Because as far as I know, for as long as people have been around, there have been people more than willing to spread whatever lies were useful to the powerful of the time, irrespective of the amount of energy available, and the job usually pays well if it's done effectively.


Good one! Priests and Shaman might fit into this category as well. Hucksters and shysters....I think...Poly fits that description as well! Not snake oil salesmen though, as they have a real live product they offer in exchange for you being stupid about low proof liquor curing cancer...sort of like the mental equivalent of what Poly is hawking.
StarvingPuutyTat says: I'm so confident in my TOTAL COLLAPSE is IMMINENT prediction that I stake my entire reputation on it. It will happen this year. - Aug 3-2020

Mustang19 says: Mods, I am just here to troll the trolls. I mean no harm.
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7446
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Polybius » Tue 18 Jan 2022, 16:17:10

Doly wrote:
Name any job/title/position and I can trace it back to energy being the underpinning of it all, that if it were not for energy, that job/title/position could not possibly exists.


Glad to see you are up to the challenge. What is the energy that underpins the job of spin doctor? Because as far as I know, for as long as people have been around, there have been people more than willing to spread whatever lies were useful to the powerful of the time, irrespective of the amount of energy available, and the job usually pays well if it's done effectively.




Spin doc falls under the broader category of useless jobs... Unlike that of "middle man" which at least serves an economic function of arbitrage, many jobs serve no useful purpose, but they exists precisely because the society in which supports or makes possible the existence of said jobs on the whole have an energy surplus.

Right now its estimated only 1% of the US workforce is directly involved in food production/farming/etc. Of course in the historic times and pre-agricultural age, especially during our ancestors hunter and gatherer days, everyone spent most of their time scavenging for food... those that succeeded in finding food survived long enough to pass down their genes, but the not so lucky folks starved to death. In mother nature there is no 'borrowing on credit' or payday loans, if the energy input was less than the energy output, if they weren't able to find enough to eat to cover for their individual calorie expenditures then they starved to death. The energy net, if you will, that these prehistoric cavemen cast was what was within walking distance, and what mother nature grew and made available by the natural rate of berries and fruits and at the rate that sunlight allowed in "real time"...

Once farming and agriculture was invented all of a sudden the systematic planting, growing and harvesting of food allowed for a massive food/energy surplus, whereby many people in that society no longer had to spent time looking for food and could use that surplus energy to do other things, such as researching and inventing tools that made the farming and agricultural process even more efficient and thus increasing the size and scale of that societies "energy net" that it could cast...

But farming and agriculture was still just converting sunlight into energy/food/fuel at a relatively slow rate... it wasn't until hydrocarbons underground were discovered and the steam engine was invented that the likes of coal, oil, and later natural gas that afforded society an exponential increase in the energy outlays... The fossil fuels underground had accumulated over billions of years, capturing the sunlight and compressing it into solid/liquid fuels over the eons... Its fair to say that we have globally consumed roughly half of the avialable net fossil fuels within merely 150 years since the advent of the industrial revolution and yet this was not a 'real time' accumulation (otherwise oil would be growing back as fast as we have been using it) and was the result of billions of years of natural sunlight/photosynthesis accumulation....

With the advent of new hydrocarbon energy sources, we tapped into this billion year energy inheritance in order to vastly increase our civilizations casted energy net, and this energy was available as a work/force/productivity multiplier effect. Where previously before the age of oil and coal, the pyramids and great walls where built by muscle labor from the energy surplus of grains and foods produced in farmland via agriculture, now we could tap into the billion year sunlight accumulation compressed into the form of high EROEI liquid/solid fuels, and coupled with machines that ran on these fuels we instantly increased our civilizations total access, production and consumption of energy by several orders of magnitudes...

As a direct result of this massive energy surplus, not only did the vast majority of society no longer need worry nor concern themselves around finding or making food, in fact it relinquished the need for almost all forms of traditional human labor/muscle input, in that we started building roads, buildings and skyscrapers with power drills, catepillar machines, and transporting materials via train and ship etc... and the underlining infrastructure all required these massive inputs of energy, and it was this extreme work/force/productivity multiplier effect of energy that allowed all of this to happen. To put another way, it was this billion year sunlight energy inheritance compressed into the form of fossil fuels that allowed man to amplify his muscle power and manual human labor, to use this newfound energy to power the machines that did the brunt of the physical work...

Then came the digital/computer revolution... Since most people in society where now freed from having to find food and also freed from having to do manual labor work, this allowed the population to focus instead on math and science, and later on hard physics that brought about transistors and integrated circuits, and other folks to focus on software design, coding, etc and basically the advent of the computer age is what allowed us to leverage the speed of microprocessors coupled with the ingenuity of code/algorithms and later that of AI in the form of deep machine learning and artificial nueral networks in order to leverage the intellectual capabilities of modern computers/automation/AI to serve as an "intellectual multiplier effect" to replace and displace a huge portion of what had traditionally been skilled human labor or that of intellectual jobs etc...

In the 60s a jumbojet required five pilots in the cockpit, but now with the advent of GPS, ILS, and the FMS/FMC/CDU only two pilots are needed for intercontinent long haul flights, getting rid of the navigator, flight engineer, radio operator etc... and soon its possible to get rid of all pilots altogether with the coming era of autonomous transports of all kinds be it self driving cars or air taxis etc etc... You can still buy a flight to the other side of the work for a couple hundred dollars, which is like a weeks of average middle income American salary. Take away the energy surplus and suddenly you will find that it would take you months if not years to naturally cross the oceans on a wind powered sail boat... and the cost would end up being years if not most of the length of your natural lifespan to accumulate that same amount of energy.

With food taken care of, and both human manual labor and most of the intellectual skilled work also automated away soon, there leaves little in the way for most people to do in terms of having to work for survival... we are at a point in which income can become decoupled from actual meaningful work. And had energy not been the limiting factor, we would have surely progressed to a fully automated workforce society that afforded everyone a comfortable UBI/UBS (universal basic income/services) lifestyle where the machines produced all the products and services and we existed to enjoy the surplus productivity/allocations....

This is why most jobs today can afford to be useless jobs like Spin docs and sports stars and NFT daytraders and this that and the other. It is only because of the underlining physical layer that has been propped up by the hydrocarbons underground and powered by the high EROEI billion year compressed sunlight inheritance that the derivative jobs on the upper layers are even possible to exists in the first place!. Take away this energy surplus foundation (high threshold of EROEI) and all the other layers riding on top suddenly collapses like a house of cards domino chain reaction supernova implosion style...

Another example, take the guy making $11 USD flipping burgers at McDonalds... his job wouldn't be possible without oil to power his car so he can get to work on time. But more than just the price of gas, in order to be able to have the job of flipping burgers it requires the existence of everything upstream of him, from the fossil fuel powered infrastructure that grew, harvested and transported the grains, vegetables etc to the machinary needed to process the meats and the fuel needed to power the trucks that transported the food to his local chain etc by the time these ingredients got to his town it already relied heavily on the energy inputs of fossil fuels to make all of it possible in the first place... without which, his job wouldn't exists. So its not just about having energy pocket change to cover the costs of raising gas prices so that he can make it to work in his car, its about EROEI impacted every aspect and every level/layer upstream and downstream of him that makes his position and pay even possible in the first place.... without the high EROEI that made the work/force/productivity multiplier effect of energy possible, then McDonald's wouldn't be able to make the sorts of profits that enable them to be paying this burger flipper $11 USD an hour, a rate which he can use to fetch nearly 3 gallons of gas, which is roughly 6 to 18 weeks of human muscle labor!

Now we have a guy that bought a jpeg image online (literally) for 60 million USD. His 'rationale' for doing this is because he believes one day this single jpeg image (NFT) would be able to fetch 1 billion USD. So I suppose we can all just quick get rich buy, selling, and flipping NFT (blockchain) jpeg images online.... In real life, everything is powered by energy, not money, as Money is just a token/symbol that we use to reductively make sense of the resources and energy flows that enable the economic activities around us. 1 billion dollars can currently buy enough gas to be equal to 12 million man years of human labor manual muscle power.... Instead he believes a jpeg image can be the same.... he thinks there are enough oil undergound to be able to enable him and others like him to set the valuation of absolutely worthless digital virtual images to be the same as the power that built the great pyramids or great wall.... This is the fallacy of our times.

Now that the energy has run out, this mother of all bubbles of all times is collapse inwards on itself domino chain reaction hypernova style... scale invariantly.
Polybius
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:37:51
Location: Arlington/Dallas

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby JuanP » Tue 18 Jan 2022, 16:46:19

I do believe that more than 90% of people do work that would be better left undone. And all those jobs cost energy, time, and resources. one of the best things we could do for the planet is fire everyone that has a useless job and pay them to do nothing. Imagine the savings!

The thing is most of us think that the jobs we do are indispensable, no matter how pointless and useless they may be.
"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak"
“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.”
Sun Tzu
JuanP
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat 16 Aug 2014, 15:06:32

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 18 Jan 2022, 17:11:54

Polybius wrote:
Doly wrote:
Name any job/title/position and I can trace it back to energy being the underpinning of it all, that if it were not for energy, that job/title/position could not possibly exists.


Glad to see you are up to the challenge. What is the energy that underpins the job of spin doctor? Because as far as I know, for as long as people have been around, there have been people more than willing to spread whatever lies were useful to the powerful of the time, irrespective of the amount of energy available, and the job usually pays well if it's done effectively.

Spin doc falls under the broader category of useless jobs...


Sort of like internet trolls who don't know that energy isn't money?
StarvingPuutyTat says: I'm so confident in my TOTAL COLLAPSE is IMMINENT prediction that I stake my entire reputation on it. It will happen this year. - Aug 3-2020

Mustang19 says: Mods, I am just here to troll the trolls. I mean no harm.
User avatar
AdamB
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 7446
Joined: Mon 28 Dec 2015, 17:10:26

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Pops » Tue 18 Jan 2022, 17:39:00

Money is just a token, a carrier of value from one place/ time to another. In consideration of the reality that most of the economy, and in fact most of the population, is in place due to fossils, I can go with the money=fossils bit. Not sure what the point is though. We all know that if fossils deplete without a suitable substitute the economy will shrink, and the money supply will be shrunk with it, or inflate away to nothing.

The EROEI part is similar, it is a way to think of the "low hanging fruit" analogy. But in reality "no net" energy will not just show up on your dash one day by the check engine light. The last gallon of unleaded you buy will have just as much energy as it did in 1952. Rather, as fossil producers consume more of their product in production, they add to demand—and we all know higher demand increases price at a specific supply level. Long before there isn't enough "net" to run your coffee-cup hauler the price will be unaffordable for all but the most valuable uses.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19626
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Doly » Wed 19 Jan 2022, 15:56:24

many jobs serve no useful purpose, but they exists precisely because the society in which supports or makes possible the existence of said jobs on the whole have an energy surplus


Not sure about that one. Easter Island apparently didn't have an awful lot of surplus when its ecosystem fell apart, but it apparently did have people insisting on putting up those statues. I'm not saying that the statues served no useful purpose, just that when the island ecosystem was falling apart, the statues surely should have been a very low-priority project.

And had energy not been the limiting factor, we would have surely progressed to a fully automated workforce society that afforded everyone a comfortable UBI/UBS


There are other limiting factors. Not all jobs can be automated, and it often has little to do with energy constraints.

1 billion dollars can currently buy enough gas to be equal to 12 million man years of human labor manual muscle power


Let's accept your calculation as correct.

The issue I see is that your equivalence/correlation of energy and money may be approximately correct on the way up (nobody can be allowed to corner the energy markets, so when the economy grows, energy has to be a sufficiently high fraction of the economy), and on the way down (assuming central banks wish to avoid hyperinflation and keep prices stable, a reduced amount of goods available will also cause a reduced money supply). But just around the peak is exactly when you expect the correlation to break the most. The amount of gas you can buy with 1 billion dollars can change a lot.

But overall, I'm pretty impressed with your spin doc demonstration. Thanks.
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4146
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Polybius » Thu 20 Jan 2022, 16:19:32

In terms of what is 'useful', would paying people to manually dig ditches and then another group just to undo that by also getting paid to fill the ditches back up be considered economically "useful" activity? Surely from a thermodynamic standpoint it is a waste, as energy is expended but the end result is the same, ending up exactly where it began. One could say a lot of the modern day jobs have some degree of this same "hurry up and wait" sort of uselessness to it all...

You have the food industry poisoning people with junk sugar, carbs and then you have the so called health or medical industry that prescribes all sorts of drugs to treat the diseases caused by the foods etc.... this all adds to both sides on the GDP, infact healthcare is a huge chunk of US GDP, and yet was any of this activity "useful"?

Especially for jobs that could be done remotely, a lot of employers are still hesitant to abolish the traditional in-person office culture due to vestigal legacy reasons that have little or nothing to do with actually needing to be in a particular physical location...

The fact that Easter Island inhabitants were still wasting energy on largely useless stuff while they were running out of wood to chop down isn't that surprising, but as their access to total energy continued to decline, the limits to their growth/building did necessarily come to a halt....

With regards to the NFT scam, my treatise on it is this:

The images (that are going for insane $$$ on the NFT market, at least the lucky ones that actually sell and can fetch that price) are actually free for anyone and everyone to download/view/etc, when you buy an NFT you are ACTUALLY purchasing the hash of the link/pointer to the webpage url of an instance of the image, basically carving out an allocation a particular database table of the ethereum cryptocurrency blockchain... so really this is nothing more but buying and selling of "star registry" when people used to pay money to "buy a star" to name a star after them or a loved one... no one owns a star, and everyone can see the star, but yet people still forked out real money to put their name on a Star registry... NFTs are EXACTLY the same concept... Problem is anyone can start their own star registry, just like there can be endless different cryptocurrencies and blockchains and you can start your own coin and your own blockchain etc...

The reason NFTs are being pushed and hyped up so much is because its an extension of cryptocurrency platform itself, it serves to prop up the entire cryptocurrency market by increasing the artificial demand and thus valuation of crypto across the board.

For various reasons, as I've already enumerated in my bitcoin thread, cryptocurrency in its current forms do not actually serve an economic transactional purpose at all, and while people can use them as a transitory storage of value (in so far as the larger scheme is still propped up) they are not a source of energy or resource etc... so to prop up all of this they came up with the concept of NFT, which itself is pointless but for the very little bit of 'value' in the digital art that is hyperinflated by orders of magnitude larger extent than even the 'inflationary' period of the universe right after the Big Bang...

Its a game of hot potatoes, the only reason someone would pay $$$$$ for a useless jpeg image is because they are betting on the hope they can turn around (whether short term or long term) and sell it to another sucker for even more $$$$$$$ down the road, which is in fact the very definition of a MLM aka Ponzi Pyramid Scheme....

Now you can buy a real house with a virtual image of a digital tulip
Or literally get sold an NFT that is an jpeg pixels of a bridge

https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/11/2232 ... 69-million
https://superrare.com/artwork-v2/dream-world-ii-23789
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
Polybius
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:37:51
Location: Arlington/Dallas

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Pops » Thu 20 Jan 2022, 16:59:11

The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19626
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Doly » Fri 21 Jan 2022, 14:56:05

The reason NFTs are being pushed and hyped up so much is because its an extension of cryptocurrency platform itself, it serves to prop up the entire cryptocurrency market by increasing the artificial demand and thus valuation of crypto across the board.


So you are saying that most people are hoping that we'll muddle through the energy transition to renewables (plus nuclear for a while, while it lasts). And what ultimately is propping up the NFT market is the assumption that things will continue going up as before. Much like, maybe, Easter Islanders were hoping that by putting up more statues they'd somehow fix their problems, even though some rational thinking would have hopefully led them to some other activity more likely to help them.

So the interesting question is: Is there any way that all that money sloshing around into NFTs can be led into energy projects that are actually helpful?
User avatar
Doly
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4146
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby JuanP » Fri 21 Jan 2022, 19:13:25

Doly wrote:
The reason NFTs are being pushed and hyped up so much is because its an extension of cryptocurrency platform itself, it serves to prop up the entire cryptocurrency market by increasing the artificial demand and thus valuation of crypto across the board.


So you are saying that most people are hoping that we'll muddle through the energy transition to renewables (plus nuclear for a while, while it lasts). And what ultimately is propping up the NFT market is the assumption that things will continue going up as before. Much like, maybe, Easter Islanders were hoping that by putting up more statues they'd somehow fix their problems, even though some rational thinking would have hopefully led them to some other activity more likely to help them.

So the interesting question is: Is there any way that all that money sloshing around into NFTs can be led into energy projects that are actually helpful?


Most people are not hoping we will; they are totally convinced!
"Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak"
“Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.”
Sun Tzu
JuanP
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1728
Joined: Sat 16 Aug 2014, 15:06:32

Re: Energy Epiphany

Unread postby Polybius » Sat 22 Jan 2022, 16:43:58

Doly wrote:
The reason NFTs are being pushed and hyped up so much is because its an extension of cryptocurrency platform itself, it serves to prop up the entire cryptocurrency market by increasing the artificial demand and thus valuation of crypto across the board.


So you are saying that most people are hoping that we'll muddle through the energy transition to renewables (plus nuclear for a while, while it lasts). And what ultimately is propping up the NFT market is the assumption that things will continue going up as before. Much like, maybe, Easter Islanders were hoping that by putting up more statues they'd somehow fix their problems, even though some rational thinking would have hopefully led them to some other activity more likely to help them.

So the interesting question is: Is there any way that all that money sloshing around into NFTs can be led into energy projects that are actually helpful?


No.

The money sloshing around is really (supposed to be) the underlining energy sloshing around that the money is supposed to represent. But it doesn't represent that. The whole crux of the issue is that money is growing exponentially faster than there exists net energy reserves that underpin the real foundations of economy/society. NFT is just a way for that monetary inflation to shoot to infinity even faster than Feds BRRRRR printer....

We can see it as market caps expanding far faster than the price of energy (or any other physical product but it all boils down to energy in the end). If the trends continue, eventually an entity will possess securities in value equal to the entire energy supply. This is essentially an economic singularity: once this occurs, the 1 entity that controls all energy can do nothing with it, because there is no possible demand from everyone else who has literally no energy. No buying or selling is possible.

Clearly this is nonsense. So there needs to be an off-ramp before it reaches this point.

There are only 2 scenarios to avoid this scenario:

1. Energy inflation matches rate of market cap expansion. This is the hyperinflation scenario.

2. Market caps decline below what they would've been if they rose in lockstep with energy inflation. This is the crash scenario.

Neither are good.

There's no other way to avoid the collapse scenario of "1 share buys all energy in the world" when market cap growth

Hey Adam I have some jpeg images on my computer I'm willing to sell to you for 1 trillion USD a piece.... let me know if interested
Polybius
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue 13 Apr 2021, 10:37:51
Location: Arlington/Dallas

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 18 guests