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Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 12:13:21

Ending climate change requires the end of capitalism. Have we got the stomach for it?

We will simply have to throw the kitchen sink at this. Policy tweaks such as a carbon tax won’t do it. We need to fundamentally re-evaluate our relationship to ownership, work and capital. The impact of a dramatic reconfiguration of the industrial economy require similarly large changes to the welfare state.

Basic incomes, large-scale public works programmes, everything has to be on the table to ensure that the oncoming system shocks do not leave vast swathes of the global population starving and destitute. Perhaps even more fundamentally, we cannot continue to treat the welfare system as a tool for disciplining the supposedly idle underclasses. Our system must be reformed with a more humane view of worklessness, poverty and migration than we have now.


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... capitalism

A provocative claim, but one worth discussing.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 12:27:20

Please post this over in either the Capitalisim Thread or Degrowth Thread or even the GND Thread.

It’s worth discussing, it’s just we are already dealing with this elsewhere.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Pops » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 13:57:32

Doesn't matter what ism, 10 billion are going to extract, consume, pollute.
second verse
same as the first
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 14:26:32

Even if a particular ism IS the solution, it's not politically viable because you'll never get everyone to adopt that ism, and that's what it would take. If there's anything environmental activism in general has taught us, it's that. Not enough buy-in and after a certain point you have to stop expecting some global epiphany to happen, especially considering inflection points like...the unwashed masses electing President Trump and buying more and more trucks and SUVs.

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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 15:12:50

Capitalism presently feeds 7.5 billion humans, the other isms feed at most a few million. There is no form of economy that works well enough to replace Capitalism. To propose to replace Capitalism without having a plan is to propose human genocide.

Please get back to us when you have a plan, dohboi. Until then, no discussion needed.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Yonnipun » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 15:16:48

Pops wrote:Doesn't matter what ism, 10 billion are going to extract, consume, pollute.
second verse
same as the first


Yep. Capitalism only goes through resources on turbo mode.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 16:58:42

Phil Mcduff is a hard core marxist. I'm not suprised he embraces genocide.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:19:40

Yonnipun wrote:
Pops wrote:Doesn't matter what ism, 10 billion are going to extract, consume, pollute.
second verse
same as the first


Yep. Capitalism only goes through resources on turbo mode.

Yes. Capitalism is the best economic system to maximize economic throughput. Problem is when our population reached a certain level that is NOT what was called for. By the way it is also the system that most egregiously creates economic inequality
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Cog » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:41:12

Inequality is a feature not a bug.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:55:22

Yonnipun wrote:
Pops wrote:Doesn't matter what ism, 10 billion are going to extract, consume, pollute.
second verse
same as the first


Yep. Capitalism only goes through resources on turbo mode.

And incentivizes technological progress, which, via efficiency and greater know how, greatly enhances what we get from resources. Crude oil and net reserves since the 70's being an excellent case in point.

Not that peak oilers or doomtards would ever want to admit that.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:57:47

Cog wrote:Inequality is a feature not a bug.

And it's not like socialism et al magically eliminates inequality. It's just that the rule makers dictate who (in addition to themselves) get most of the wealth -- even if they actually produce nothing but more poverty.

This is something the far left wingnut crowd doesn't want to admit, of course.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby dissident » Sat 23 Mar 2019, 22:38:11

Going back to nomadic type of life is not going to happen until the Earth's human population is almost fully wiped out. But there is no economic system that does not function like a heat engine. Getting rid of one heat engine to replace it with another is not going to change anything.

Perhaps serious CO2 production reductions are needed. This requires electrification of transport including 100% of urban car traffic and the use of nuclear power to generate the electricity. Waiting 100 years for boutique alternatives to kick in is delusional. They will never kick in since the global economy is going to collapse before they reach the necessary scale.

But instead of actual policy we will have BAU cult nonsense denying any problem and dreams of radical social engineering that has failed in the past and will continue to fail no matter how hard some "ideal" system is forced on society.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 09:41:25

Outcast_Searcher wrote:And it's not like socialism et al magically eliminates inequality.


Socialism created tons of human suffering around the world in its own way, and you can see it playing out currently in Venezuela.

Seems like some people are so entwined with their ideology that they can't help but push that ideology as if it's a solution when it's not.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 10:10:12

Correct, asg70. In the USA, the proponents of the various forms of Marxism/Socialism/Communism/etc. are the truly clueless academics. Something about never owning a business, never having to compete (except in an academic environment), and never managing people promotes a false view of Economics.

Unfortunately these are also the people charged with the very great responsibility of educating our children. YES I understand the follies of youth, but I don't understand such attitudes in those old enough to know better.

Not to mention the facts: The Middle Classes everywhere were created by Capitalism, and the oppressed serfs were created by four-dozen-odd attempts at some flavor of Marxism, none of which enjoyed more than a brief success.

Reality, what a concept!
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 10:22:59

While it’s clear, or should be, that our current economic model is truly screwed up and destroying Earth that observation in itself solves no problem. To say “End Capitalisim” is just another version of “White boys suck!” jingoistic blame propaganda.

What is a far more interesting conversation would be “What should we change?”

IMHO Capitalisim per se is less the problem than Consumerisim. Consumerisim evolved out of Capitalisim when the industrialist and economists figured out, about 120 years ago, that our basic needs for happiness were within reach. They needed a new motivator to keep the furnaces blasting. Enter Planned Obsolesence and Consumerisim. Plastic knives and pre ripped jeans. “Don’t stitch it, ditch it.” (Huxley - Brave New World)

So that is where I focus my attention, why are we so driven for frivolous treats? My Wife thinks the answer lies in addiction therapy. Like cocaine aquiring some new flashy provides a momentary high, then there is a down, to be repaired by a new high. You are hooked.

Far beyond the opioid crisis we have a consumptive disease, in all senses of the word.

How we fix that is truly interesting. It’s a question less of economics than values. What eventually evolves remains to be seen.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 10:45:58

The cure for Consumerism is simply advancing age for most people. The wife and I just donated the 2001 Jeep Grand Cherokee to a charity, less than a month after I sold the 1967 Kaiser Jeepster pickup to a younger man who is already enjoying it greatly. So after selling our home, we are vagabonds meandering our way across country in a 2003 Jeep Wrangler. It's a good car for snow, I'm SO GLAD I added the aftermarket insulation package to the hardtop.

This is why the most sought after demographic is the 18-25, followed by the 26-40. Older folks just don't spend much money on average.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 11:18:40

Newfie, after thinking about it, I'll have to say that Capitalism is not to blame for anything. Capitalism is simply the most efficient economic system. Human overpopulation is the root cause of environment damage. In truth, it would not matter much which economic system you used, if the humans numbered less than that magic sustainable population.

The nature of humanity the ape is the cause of overpopulation. We are of course the only ape smart enough to see the conundrum we face. That does not mean we have any hope of saving ourselves, only that we can see the End approaching.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 14:03:20

KaiserJeep wrote:Newfie, after thinking about it, I'll have to say that Capitalism is not to blame for anything. Capitalism is simply the most efficient economic system. Human overpopulation is the root cause of environment damage. In truth, it would not matter much which economic system you used, if the humans numbered less than that magic sustainable population.

The nature of humanity the ape is the cause of overpopulation. We are of course the only ape smart enough to see the conundrum we face. That does not mean we have any hope of saving ourselves, only that we can see the End approaching.

Newfie, what is missing from this explanation by K is how Capitalism faithful to the doctrine of growth, needs more workers, consumers and soldiers. That equates to more people. Yes, overpopulation itself is a huge problem but so is overconsumerism and the ethos of greed. These have been magnified and encouraged by Capitalism. To a certain extent I will concede our trajectory was destined due to our intelligence and thus "success". But, part of intelligence is wisdom. We should have realized that infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible. But in the grip of Capitalism and the consequent extolling of greed that realization does not come so easy or is ignored
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby shortonoil » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 15:01:37

But, part of intelligence is wisdom. We should have realized that infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible. But in the grip of Capitalism and the consequent extolling of greed that realization does not come so easy or is ignored


We are now at Peak, which means the end of growth (at least as we have known it). Will capitalism die, or will it morph into some other system? If it does transform into something else, it will be a strange looking creature.
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Re: Ending CC Requires Ending Capitalism

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 24 Mar 2019, 15:46:10

What everyone here is doing is facing aft, criticizing and blaming about the past.

We need to rotate our vision 180° forward, to the future. What shall we do next?

I agree human overpopulation is a monsterous problem, how do we solve it? What tools do we have available? I don’t care if the answer is Capitalisim, Socialisim, Consumerisim, or Isimism, or some combination. No more blame and naval gazing. We need Solutionionisim.
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