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Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 02 Jan 2019, 11:27:01

Complaint noted. Two wrongs make no right. Lead by example. And a billion more trite sayings along the same lines.

Just take care of your own speech.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 02 Jan 2019, 21:41:06

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:Part of the art of living through the upcoming challenging times is to sprinkle around in equal amounts love and misanthropy.


The point is you love those who deserve it and despise those who deserve it. But what tends to happen, especially online, is people generalize. So if you're in a pissy mood, suddenly you hate all humans. If you're in a more spiritual mood, it's love thy neighbor. Well, the reality is people earn your love or derision. Unfocused misanthropy leads to Derrick Jensen type mentalities.


This has little to do with a mood one might have at any particular moment. I mentioned in the past in times of abundance what is good for the individual is also good for the species. In overshoot a decoupling happens between the individual and the species. In overshoot what is bad for the individual is good for the species.

So even though you may love and cherish your circle of known fellow humans at the same time you recognize that the value of the individual is negative for the wellbeing of the species.

And as the vast majority become ever more aligned with consumption culture and living further away from the rhythms of the natural world they become trash. Trash culture breeds trash individuals.

I love and cherish my circle of friends but I hold in contempt the vast majority of humanity. This does not depend on my mood but rather both of these truths sit side by side in my world view. Have for awhile actually.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 02 Jan 2019, 22:43:12

Ibon wrote:I love and cherish my circle of friends but I hold in contempt the vast majority of humanity.


Then when you throw out some feel-good phrases like love thy neighbor, my neighbors that I love may be the same ones you view as trash. Nice sentiment. BTW, if someone is an asshole, they don't deserve any love from me regardless of how many solar panels they brag about having on their roof.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 00:50:38

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:I love and cherish my circle of friends but I hold in contempt the vast majority of humanity.


BTW, if someone is an asshole, they don't deserve any love from me regardless of how many solar panels they brag about having on their roof.

so they are solar trash?
But they apparently deserve an inordinate amount of your time telling them so. face it, you are deeply passionate in your relationship with some members here. Love and hate.... so closely related.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 01:01:46

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:I love and cherish my circle of friends but I hold in contempt the vast majority of humanity.


Then when you throw out some feel-good phrases like love thy neighbor, my neighbors that I love may be the same ones you view as trash.


no doubt. that is why there is a buffer of trees and wilderness and a few thousand miles between me and your neighbors. the tension and sense of being squeezed is far worse when they are crammed in close...

from where i stand it is so easy to preach the message to cultivate love. if i was back up there i would be an ornery son of a bitch. i couldnt handle all that mediocre trash around me.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 06:49:26

A few good ones Ibon. The whole “love individuals, hate humanity” has been in my awareness for a long time. Another of our cunumdrums.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Cog » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 08:14:22

Why would I hate humanity? Sounds like more death cult doomerism related to Malthusian hatred of all things human.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 08:28:10

Cog wrote:Why would I hate humanity? Sounds like more death cult doomerism related to Malthusian hatred of all things human.


See if you can contain the duality. We have 19 guests this morning, we feed and serve each one, both their physical bodies and their spirits. We guide them in the wilderness. We provide a valuable service to these Homo Sapiens. And yet on the species level we are degenerate.

Perhaps your christian values where everything has to be binary as in either good or evil you find it difficult to contain these parallel positions where you can recognize the degeneracy of our species while you break bread in brotherhood with the individuals you work or play with.

This is not an easy conundrum to resolve for any of us and yet each of us, whether we want to admit it or not, contains these contradictory sentiments.

The US, made great by immigrants, founded by immigrants, whose identity has been shaped by immigrants, suddenly feels little remorse to the closing of borders and hardening ones humanity by scapegoating those whose suffering we all recognize.

Just like I have little compassion for trash consumers you have little compassion for Honduran immigrants. We each have our own versions of shutting down our compassion around the Big Squeeze that is only going to get worse.. .

Each one of us has segments of our population where we direct either compassion or disdain. We target different segments.

I have guests who come here and want to save every mangy street dog they see on the side of the road. I tell them quite directly, "you have to learn to compartmentalize your compassion". You cannot save all the starving mangy dogs.

There is a big part of humanity that is trash. The empty consumers. Like mangy dogs in the third world I have little compassion for their suffering.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby GHung » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 09:44:05

I have a strong sense of "Forgive them, for they know not what they do", but that doesn't mean I have to like them, or approve of their behavior. Most folks are deeply enculturated and behave as they were programmed to behave; by society, by schooling, peer pressure, genetics, TV, all that, and don't question that much (cognitive dissonance perhaps). Seems we have a society whose individuals aren't very resilient; haven't been challenged in any meaningful way, and most homo sapiens aren't sapient at all, or even very smart. But they have every right to their time on this planet, as I do.

What I'm intolerant of is those who know better, have been taught better, and choose to ignore those teachings, like Christians' support of Trump, who embodies pretty much everything Jesus taught them to NOT be, even though they have a choice. Seems quite insane to me.

Maybe humanity ran out of good stories.........
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 09:55:14

Your on a role Ibon. Good.

Cog,

There is a differen between dealing within individuals and dealing with masses of humanity. And it’s not simply a perceptional issue. Folks act and react very differently one on one than when in groups, especially large groups

Ever see a riot of one person? Of course not, it makes no sense.

There is a similar dynamic with dogs. There are occasional incidents where a pack of otherwise nice, normal, benevolent house lacks will get together as a pack and attack and kill someone.

Like human beings, dogs are vulnerable to mob psychology. The pack instinct is a more accurate term because it usually brings out the worst side of their nature. It may take no more than one other dog for this psychological phenomenon to occur. Most dogs want to pleasure their owner. But once they become a member of a pack their old instincts take over and the owner is forgotten. It is very important never to let your dog run loose where he can get into bad company.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 3642011021

For a bizzar example: dashound pack kills woman

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/oklah ... achshunds/
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 09:57:14

Ghung,

One slight modification......Nor Democrats support of Hillary.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby GHung » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 10:42:53

Newfie wrote:Ghung,

One slight modification......Nor Democrats support of Hillary.


Perhaps, but I see a difference. I see political support as being secondary to Christianity (or religion in general). Christianity is a 2000+ year-old code of conduct that is in your face, especially the more evangelical brands. I live in the Bible Belt where people frequently want to force me to live by their teachings, yet they often ignore those teachings themselves. They want to put crosses in our public schools, resisted alcohol sales until quite recently, all sorts of stuff. With Trump (who has virtually overwhelming support among that group) they make an exception. Why?

.... and if you are implying that my opposition to Trump = support for Clinton, you would be wrong. But that's straying from the point. In short, I don't like hypocrites.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Cog » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 10:58:02

Say the word Ibon. I'm sure you can. Illegal aliens. The aren't immigrants no matter how loud you No borders, no walls, no usa at all, people want it.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 11:18:46

GHung,

Not all implying your support of Trump. I lived in an overwhelingly liberal Democrat area and I experienced all those things you describe. Obviously not exactly, but they were pushing to have their values enforced. They were not ascribed to Christianity but to some perceived moral order or code. And those folks were Hypocrit.

It was interesting having a argument about situational ethics with a liberal atheist leader, and a friend. I said all ethics are situational, that nature sees no good or evil, only what is. He was quite exercised with me for my lack of faith, that of course ethics comes from some higher source, ethics are not situational but ridged.

WTF? How is that different from religion?

They all all the same, human.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby shortonoil » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 12:30:26

ATTN: SHORT LOST A BET AND WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE MADE ONE. HE SHOULD NOT BE WELCOME HERE!


asg70 is a numbskull, and a loser; mostly loser; short and simple
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 13:55:32

GHung wrote:With Trump (who has virtually overwhelming support among that group) they make an exception. Why?


The ends justifies the means.

Trump is a symbol of an almost complete state of desperation/futility with conventional politics. To some he was almost a "mickey mouse" or "none of the above" vote, a protest vote.

Of course the problem is we all want a certain vision of an ideal politician but how many of us have the stomach to enter politics ourselves? The gauntlet is so brutal that only those with some sort of personality disorder or megalomania are willing to jump in. This is largely our own fault for allowing discourse to enter the gutter and to be so easily swayed by lying, bullying, and scaremongering tactics.

I've come to believe that democracy simply doesn't work since the average person lacks the abilities that such responsibility requires. That's why the government worked best back when only wealthy well-educated deep-thinkers like the founding-fathers were running things.
"this is peak now. Wanna bet? The Real Pain starts . . . now." (11/21/18)" --pstarr
"$0/barrel soon as per etp." (12/30/18)" --pstarr
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 14:23:14

asg70 wrote:
I've come to believe that democracy simply doesn't work since the average person lacks the abilities that such responsibility requires. That's why the government worked best back when only wealthy well-educated deep-thinkers like the founding-fathers were running things.


I agreed with your whole post. And I see that you also agree with me that we have degraded culturally (globally by the way) to where humanity has become largely trash culture..
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 14:27:23

Short,

No name calling. Register your complaint in direct terms.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 14:37:59

Although it has not happened within the personal memories of any of us, Donald Trump is not unprecedented in US History. There have been many Populist candidacies in the past, In a variety of offices. Some won, some lost, all were disruptive. I don't think Trump has has nearly the disruptive influence as did Teddy Roosevelt and the Bull Moose party, for example.

I weary of pointing out that Trump was a wealthy, liberal NY Democrat most of his life. The reason that he ran as a Republican is simply timing, a Populist must run against the party in power. Had the R's been in control of the White House, he would have taken the D candidacy and IMHO would have still won.

Because you see there are really no important differences between the R's and D's with regards to what they actually DO, although differences exist with what they SAY THEY WILL DO. Both major US political parties actually exist to perpetuate the US oligarchs. Donald Trump is one of those oligarchs - he does in the light what the other candidates do in the shadows - think about that.

The POTUS in the recent past who was more fiscally conservative than any other was Bill Clinton. Ronald Reagan was a spendthrift by comparison. Their rhetoric did differ greatly, I will admit - a matter of little consequence.
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Re: Effects of Peak Oil - 2019 Edition

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 03 Jan 2019, 14:42:18

shortonoil wrote:
ATTN: SHORT LOST A BET AND WON'T EVEN ADMIT HE MADE ONE. HE SHOULD NOT BE WELCOME HERE!


asg70 is a numbskull, and a loser; mostly loser; short and simple



As your rebuttal demonstrates you are dancing with him so what does that make you? Don't you guys realize that when you spiral down this back and forth dissing of each other that from the outside you all look equally retarded?
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