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Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

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Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 04 Oct 2020, 12:20:08

My first wife was from Switzerland who I met when traveling through Europe in 1980. Long story short that relationship lasted 3 years but the relationship with Switzerland lasted until 1992, 12 years engagement as a resident of tis country allowed me to understand their system of direct democracy. Lately I have been thinking more and more how elements of their political system would be a possible model for the USA if we are not going to be able to hold the country together through this period of political polarization.

Briefly, Switzerland has 28 Kantons, like states in the USA except that each Kanton has more autonomy. The country is a federation of these 28 Kantons. A dramatic example of the independence of each Kanton, something many of you might be surprised to learn, is that it was as late as 1991 that the Kanton of Appenzell finally gave women the right to vote. I was living in the neighboring Kanton at the time and went to the town square during the momentous day that the men of Appenzell Ausserhoden met in the town square and raised their swords in majority agreement to give the women the right to vote. That was the last hold out Kanton for womens right to vote in Switzerland.

Switzerland is often referred to as a type of direct democracy because petitions generated by the general public on specific issues can be raised and then voted on as a Folk Referendum. While I was living in Switzerland one of the folk initiatives that the majority of Swiss citizens voted on and approved was raising the taxes by 30 cents per gallon on diesel and gasoline fuel in order to finance the expansion of the mass public transportation. This was approved by over 80% of swiss citizens.

Folks initiatives in Switzerland can be either at the federal level or at the level of the Kanton.

Just last week a Volksinitiative won approval by the majority of Swizz citizens in the Kanton of Geneva, here is the link:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/03/worl ... index.html

Voters in Geneva, Switzerland, have agreed to introduce a minimum wage in the canton that is the equivalent of $25 an hour -- believed to be the highest in the world.

According to government data, 58% of voters in the canton were in favor of the initiative set the minimum wage at 23 Swiss francs an hour, which was backed by a coalition of labor unions and aimed at "fighting poverty, favoring social integration, and contributing to the respect of human dignity."
While Switzerland has no national minimum wage law, Geneva is the fourth of 26 cantons to vote on the matter in recent years after Neuchâtel, Jura and Ticino.



Specific to the USA both more autonomous states rights as well as referendums on specific issues brought forth as folks initiatives would be a very positive way to begin the process of actually moving the political divide from what is today empty symbolism and moving it in the direction of real pragmatic legislation tailor made for each state or region.

The red state / blue state divide can direct all their philosophical differences towards legislating their desires at the state level instead of today fighting against each other which just resembles a spinning flywheel that is not in gear doing any useful work.

Public health care for California? Let the state decide
Abortions on demand? Let Alabama outlaw it
Initiate a VAT tax to finance social program? Let a folks initiative vote on it at the federal level. If it fails as an alternative states can increase sales tax for the same reason.

The Folks initiatives also provide a way for citizens to circumvent the inordinate power of corporate lobbyists to derail meaningful reform by their ability for example to lobby legislators on keeping drug prices artificially elevated for US consumers.

If we take the recently past referendum in Geneva on implementing a minimal livable wage, imagine a US based Folk initiative requiring a minimum wage of $18 an hour to be petitioned, brought forth and voted on directly by US citizens. There certainly are a hell of a lot more low wage earners in the US then there are members of the monied class that keep both parties strictly within the confines of legislation that benefits their privilege.

The US voter is currently corralled into a polarized conflict that is based on empty symbolism instead of concrete issues. A system that allowed states more autonomy and also gave the citizens a direct voice in democracy on referendums would empower the public, communities and states. Counter intuitively, this could be the very thing to actually bring about a renewed sense of unity and empowerment of citizens.

It is the very lack of voice and power among the public that stokes the flames of the artificial symbol based tribalism that dominates the public discourse today....... a discourse that the monied class want to keep going for as long as US citizens continue to agree to eat the shit that is being fed them.

Allow citizens a greater voice in a form of direct democracy as we can see in Switzerland?
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby careinke » Sun 04 Oct 2020, 19:28:20

Thanks for the thread. Both my kids Boarded at the Leysin American School for their high school years, so Switzerland holds a special place in my heart.

I like their form of democracy, and it seems to work even though each Kanton seems to have their own official language. :lol:

I wonder if Switzerland had a "Coherent National Policy" for Covid, or was it left up to the Kanton?

I'm actually a little surprised you would even recommend this system. It seems to align more closely with Republican rather than Democrat thinking. With Kanton/State rights more important (promoted by Republicans), than centralized control at the federal level (promoted by the Democrats).

No matter, I'd be all for it. Maybe we could also adopt their Neutrality stance, and quit needlessly killing our young men and women in stupid wars?
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby careinke » Sun 04 Oct 2020, 19:36:04

Oh, one more thing. We would need to keep our right to move out of a state for any reason (or no reason at all).
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 05 Oct 2020, 01:18:09

Ibon wrote:Allow citizens a greater voice in a form of direct democracy as we can see in Switzerland?


Actually, 26 US states already have direct democracy in the form of citizen's initiatives.....the initiative process allows citizens in the US to make laws much as the "folk" initiatives do in Switzerland.

For instance, this year in Alaska we have an initiative to significantly increase state taxes on the oil industry.

In California they will have 12 different initiatives on the ballot.

California_2020_ballot_propositions

Personally I like the initiative system, but it isn't perfect...... it can easily be manipulated by wealthy people or corporations who have certain agenda they want to push and the money to hire signature gatherers and then to pay for TV ads backing their position..

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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby careinke » Mon 05 Oct 2020, 02:14:47

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote:Allow citizens a greater voice in a form of direct democracy as we can see in Switzerland?


Actually, 26 US states already have direct democracy in the form of citizen's initiatives.....the initiative process allows citizens in the US to make laws much as the "folk" initiatives do in Switzerland.

For instance, this year in Alaska we have an initiative to significantly increase state taxes on the oil industry.

In California they will have 12 different initiatives on the ballot.

California_2020_ballot_propositions

Personally I like the initiative system, but it isn't perfect...... it can easily be manipulated by wealthy people or corporations who have certain agenda they want to push and the money to hire signature gatherers and then to pay for TV ads backing their position..

Cheers!


Good points P. Washington has an initiative and a referendum system that allows us to vote on issues. We also have a lot of problems with it involving long costly court battles.
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 05 Oct 2020, 09:41:50

Plantagenet wrote:
Personally I like the initiative system, but it isn't perfect...... it can easily be manipulated by wealthy people or corporations who have certain agenda they want to push and the money to hire signature gatherers and then to pay for TV ads backing their position..

Cheers!


Yes and this is the crux of the problem. I was relocated from Switzerland to Florida in 1992 and about a year after our arrival there there was a ballot initiative in Florida proposing a one penny per gallon (about 1/4 of a penny per liter) tax to be used for Everglades restoration.

The TV ads were so caustic about no more taxes that the initiative failed.

THe crux of the problem is? In Switzerland there is not this huge corporate and political machine dedicated solely to manipulate the opinions of voters. In Switzerland your average citizen is far more engaged politically, better educated and has a stronger sense of the common good.

In the US almost all institutions from unions, corporations, politicians, churches, advertisers have through the decades developed a cynical approach to game the system. This is actually the root of the problem.

We have collectively gamed the system into the toilet.

And we elected a president who understands very well the cynical nature of gaming the system. It is no accident that Trump became president. He embodies the gaming of the system that unions, politicians, corporations, advertisers, wallstreet executives and bankers, churches, etc. have been hard at work mastering since many decades.

Gaming the system......

Can we even unwind this?
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 05 Oct 2020, 09:45:04

careinke wrote:
I'm actually a little surprised you would even recommend this system. It seems to align more closely with Republican rather than Democrat thinking. With Kanton/State rights more important (promoted by Republicans), than centralized control at the federal level (promoted by the Democrats).


That is because you probably have pegged me as some US style liberal progressive. Consider what living 12 years in Europe, 5 years in SE Asia and over 20 years working and living in Latin America has done to my world view.

I am not easily pegged into any of the very limited holes that 99% of AMericans slip into passively with very little critical thinking!
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby careinke » Mon 05 Oct 2020, 10:16:24

Ibon wrote:
careinke wrote:
I'm actually a little surprised you would even recommend this system. It seems to align more closely with Republican rather than Democrat thinking. With Kanton/State rights more important (promoted by Republicans), than centralized control at the federal level (promoted by the Democrats).


That is because you probably have pegged me as some US style liberal progressive. Consider what living 12 years in Europe, 5 years in SE Asia and over 20 years working and living in Latin America has done to my world view.

I am not easily pegged into any of the very limited holes that 99% of AMericans slip into passively with very little critical thinking!


I hear you, having spent decades overseas in my life (Philippines, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, plus dozens of other countries around the world on shorter term bases). I was always amazed, when visiting the US, how ignorant (not stupid), most people in the US are on other cultures. For instance, most do not understand how Islam works in Sharia based countries, and seemed incredulous when I discussed it with them.

Then again, I'm amazed that store clerks can't make change without the cash register telling them how. :lol:
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 06 Oct 2020, 18:21:35

I was re reading this thread and everyones comments and what struck me most was one of the comments I made that would have been a better title of this thread.



We have collectively gamed the system into the toilet.
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Re: Direct Democracy; lessons from Switzerland for the USA

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 13 Oct 2020, 06:23:19

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote:Allow citizens a greater voice in a form of direct democracy as we can see in Switzerland?


Actually, 26 US states already have direct democracy in the form of citizen's initiatives.....the initiative process allows citizens in the US to make laws much as the "folk" initiatives do in Switzerland.

For instance, this year in Alaska we have an initiative to significantly increase state taxes on the oil industry.

In California they will have 12 different initiatives on the ballot.

California_2020_ballot_propositions

Personally I like the initiative system, but it isn't perfect...... it can easily be manipulated by wealthy people or corporations who have certain agenda they want to push and the money to hire signature gatherers and then to pay for TV ads backing their position..

Cheers!

Yes, my state does it too. It means you have to endure the same tired ballot initiatives every year, trying to ban abortion or legalize weed, until they pass. Mostly, it means we don't pay enough taxes. We have to vote to raise taxes. That came from the process too. Nobody ever votes to increase taxes. There is a low threshold. Or, there was. The politicos recommended a few years back that the barrier to entry be raised, to avoid the same initiatives showing up every year. They say the ballot gets too confusing when there is too much stuff on it. Raising the barrier to entry may actually be a good thing because it forces the fringe elements who want to offer the same things that won't pass every year to compromise. As it was, they could just foist the same wording on the public every year. Raising the barrier may actually make things less divisive.

The worst thing that happens is that the state offices that don't have any money don't approach the people the way that you would imagine they would, if they need money. They fail to communicate the need in such a way that it is understood by the people that the money is something necessary. Instead, they join in public/private partnerships and do other things that are not obvious to the people.

Before you know it, some Australian company has the authority to take away your driver's license for overdue toll fees. If you thought it was bad dealing with state authorities, who can be held accountable, try getting justice from an independent company that has been given carte blanche to wreck your life! It happens, and becomes normal. The situation can get especially bad when a state working like this, lacking revenues because its citizens won't vote for them, is undergoing growth. The state authorities give all of the highway projects to the areas where all of the people are, and the rest of the state makes do with bad roads, or poor services. The situation is set for animosity to develop between urban and rural areas. The rural areas know they won't ever get any money because it's all going to get spent in the cities. People in the city vote no because they know they will get what they need, and still won't have to pay more taxes. All the while, everybody complains about the roads.
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