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Delay of Peak Oil?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby Kylon » Sun 21 May 2017, 19:13:35

It's possible for the centers of civilization to mitigate peak oil temporarily, to delay it, via demand destruction by reducing access to credit and money through various means to peripherial nations.

To put it simply, they can decrease the amount of oil poor nations get, so they have more for themselves.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 21 May 2017, 19:30:38

"To put it simply, they can decrease the amount of oil poor nations get, so they have more for themselves."

So you mean BAU as it has been for the last 100+ years? LOL.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 22 May 2017, 02:34:30

BAU means the opposite.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 22 May 2017, 15:39:54

Peak oil becomes Peak oil demand, and I don't mean demand "dearth".

https://www.wsj.com/articles/get-ready- ... 1495419061
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby peripato » Tue 23 May 2017, 00:09:59

Kylon wrote:It's possible for the centers of civilization to mitigate peak oil temporarily, to delay it, via demand destruction by reducing access to credit and money through various means to peripherial nations.

To put it simply, they can decrease the amount of oil poor nations get, so they have more for themselves.

The peripheral nations don't really use that much oil. To make a real impact one of the core areas, like China, Japan or Europe, would have to be collapsed - like the lights going out permanently kind of collapse. But in an interdependent world that would spell the end for everyone.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 23 May 2017, 00:44:45

Yes, as others have said here periphery nations have and are deprived of oil compared to the richer nations. This is of course the case across the board for all products consistent with the exploitative , highly competitive monetary economic system. As for delaying PO, it is quite clear that lending is keeping the motor running of the Oil Industry and in fact the entire economic edifice. This situation is setting up the entire first world economies to a huge popping of the economic bubble. But as Peripato mentioned economies are interlinked and so nobody dares end or expose the over inflated and unsustainable debt bubble. Money flows into key areas under duress ie.real estate, car industry, oil industry, banks etc. So, the soundness and perspicacity of the finances of entire industries is increasingly dubious now
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 23 May 2017, 10:50:31

onlooker wrote:periphery nations have and are deprived of oil


Deprived? What does a starving african need oil for? Dump a barrel of oil onto him for free and he's still starving. These nations have more serious problems than access to oil.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 23 May 2017, 11:53:43

I believe that they doomers prefer that everyone on the planet live like those in very poor countries, which can not afford oil. After all, isn't sustainability and living within nature's constraints the end goal here?

What the first world should do is to deny the third world ANY access to oil and see how they adapt. Like a big experiment to see how sustainability works that we can observe from the comfort of our homes and SUV's. Who is with me on this ground-breaking experiment?
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 23 May 2017, 15:42:58

There are doomers who aren't so much doomers as social justice warriors who are hoping that doom functions like karmic payback to the rich and comfortable (which, apparently, means anyone who eats three meals a day, has electricity, and running water).

You see them tip their ideological hand when they portray the world as it now in a state of collapse because of the mere presence of poor and starving people. Of course, the world has been full of starving people since before the industrial revolution, but by emphasizing that there are haves and have nots we can imbue the peak oil narrative with villains, namely everyone who enjoys the privilege of living in the industrialized west under capitalism. None of us should be allowed to enjoy a comfortable life without feeling like we're actively killing hundreds of third worlders to do it in a cruel game of lifeboat ethics.

It matters not that these poor people are in much more dire need of the basic necessities of life and not cheap gas for their nonexistent cars. But no, we're going to talk about how they have been cruelly priced out of the market for oil even during a glut.

Whatever...
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 23 May 2017, 15:53:11

So Dude, you think that starving people is acceptable? To point out the great inequalities and injustice in the world is a sin? Well then I am guilty. You and Cog are welcomed to enjoy your lives in the privileged countries. But lets not fool anyone by saying all this is okay. Beyond being insensitive it is downright callous.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 23 May 2017, 17:56:15

onlooker wrote:So Dude, you think that starving people is acceptable?


No one said that. But someone did point out that it isn't a new condition. Therefore, those pretending it is something new and is a sign of collapse are doing the usual....cherry picking their data. It goes hand in hand with doomer fantasy most of the time.

onlooker wrote:To point out the great inequalities and injustice in the world is a sin?


No. It just isn't more than an observation like the "the sun is rising in the east". Feel free to try and cure as many inequalities and as much injustice as you'd like, just don't pretend it is a symptom of collapse, any more than the sun rising in the east is.

onlooker wrote: Well then I am guilty.


So are you done with first the strawman, and now playing the victim card after having the subject because you have no answer for the original statement?

onlooker wrote: You and Cog are welcomed to enjoy your lives in the privileged countries. But lets not fool anyone by saying all this is okay. Beyond being insensitive it is downright callous.


So, how sensitive are you? Right now, are you working with a national relief organization of some sort helping feed the poor people in Venezuela? Or do you just talk about injustice in forums as though you care, without investing any effort into helping out...which apparently you now want to accuse others of?
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 23 May 2017, 18:46:13

The catch with any global capitalist system is that it requires increasing prosperity across the board. That's because the income levels and ROIs of the middle class are dependent on increasing sales of goods and services to expanding consumer markets.

That's why BAU means the opposite of decreasing oil available to developing countries.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 23 May 2017, 18:51:30

The narrative is always the same here, even years later. The doomers separate people into the haves and have-nots. The haves are always the oppressors and the have-nots are always the oppressed. Its the way they see the world in very black-white terms. Of course this condition is intolerable to them so the haves must be crushed down to the level of the have-nots so that oppression goes away. At least so goes their theory of everything.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 23 May 2017, 18:53:48

So, how sensitive are you? --Sensitive enough to not trivialize the terrible ordeals people are experiencing around the world
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 23 May 2017, 21:53:53

onlooker wrote:So, how sensitive are you? --Sensitive enough to not trivialize the terrible ordeals people are experiencing around the world


So what are you doing about it? Other than pretending that others don't care, but you do, and that caring makes you morally superior in some way?
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 23 May 2017, 22:08:13

AdamB wrote:are you working with a national relief organization of some sort helping feed the poor people in Venezuela? Or do you just talk about injustice in forums as though you care, without investing any effort into helping out...which apparently you now want to accuse others of?


I think we know the answer to that question. BTW, I have donated to causes like Planned Parenthood, Doctors Without Borders, Sierra Club, etc...
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 24 May 2017, 14:19:46

asg70 wrote:
AdamB wrote:are you working with a national relief organization of some sort helping feed the poor people in Venezuela? Or do you just talk about injustice in forums as though you care, without investing any effort into helping out...which apparently you now want to accuse others of?


I think we know the answer to that question. BTW, I have donated to causes like Planned Parenthood, Doctors Without Borders, Sierra Club, etc...


So have I. But that is a luxury folks richer folks can do, as opposed to joining the Peace Corps or going out and DOING something...which onlooker is suspiciously quiet about...after having accused everyone else about not caring...as though whining about inequity is caring.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 24 May 2017, 14:32:51

No, I have donated money to causes I deem worthwhile. And your assassination of my character is unfounded given you know little about me. The issue was cavalier statements made about the harrowing plight of many around the world. You both along with Cog can triumphantly gawk all you want about happy motoring and how collapse is still a ways away. But, at least show some deference to places that by any definition have already collapsed. Venezuela and Yemen to name a few
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 24 May 2017, 15:17:05

onlooker wrote:at least show some deference to places that by any definition have already collapsed. Venezuela and Yemen to name a few


What good does "deference" do? And you do realize that regional collapses have occurred countless times through history. In most cases these places that collapsed went on to recover (at least to some degree). A good recent example would be Russia, the case-study Orlov keeps using. As bad as the fall of the soviet union was, nobody's toiling away on subsistence backyard potato farming anymore (nor in Cuba, aka Power of Community, which is poised to take the China path towards capitalism). The only purpose your "deference" serves is to draw spurious relations between a dysfunctional failed state and peak-oil. Thy tears are purely of the crocodile variety.
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Re: Delay of Peak Oil?

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 24 May 2017, 18:29:59

onlooker wrote:No, I have donated money to causes I deem worthwhile.


Well good for you! Then you are no different than all of us who are you accusing of not caring. So which is it, do ALL of us not care, or do we?

onlooker wrote:
And your assassination of my character is unfounded given you know little about me.


I asked a question, specifically to find out if you were just like us, or not. You have since cleared that up. Thereby defeating the purpose of the entire "holier than thou" routine you were attempting ti employ. Cowboy up.

onlooker wrote: The issue was cavalier statements made about the harrowing plight of many around the world.


No it wasn't. It was about people ignoring the fact that their doom indicators have been with us longer than they have been alive, and the fundamental dishonesty in pretending otherwise. You know, peakers already have a pretty poor reputation when it come to honesty, critical thinking, objective analysis, you don't have to keep going and PROVING it on a regular basis..

onlooker wrote:You both along with Cog can triumphantly gawk all you want about happy motoring and how collapse is still a ways away. But, at least show some deference to places that by any definition have already collapsed. Venezuela and Yemen to name a few


Happy motoring, here and now, is a fact. I understand that you are not happy with facts, be they increased car sales, increased crude consumption, even more supply, or you pretending to be more righteous in your actions related to poor people the world over than either asg or myself. There is no triumph in knowing and understanding facts, and "collapse" as you call it has been with us longer than oil has been, so stop pretending that it happening now is a sign of anything other than the usual mismanagement we have examples of dating back centuries.

There is a world out there, and a reality and history that goes with it. Try understanding it, and you won't be so easily fooled by bright shiny objects that catch your eye.
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