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Degrowth Thread

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby diemos » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 14:29:14

AdamB wrote:Sure. With me it was window washers in Houston, who I refused to give a $1 to after they smeared marsh bug guts all over my car window with their sleeves rather than cleaning the window. Quite irritated when I hit the wiper button to cure the mess they had made, more irritated I didn't pay the extortion money.


And exactly what did you do in that life or death situation? Did you roll down the window, pull out your piece and blow them away? Did you run them down with your car? Or did you just fume and maybe flip them off.

Sorry boss, but you strike me as a keyboard warrior who has all these fantasies about what you're gonna do if the situation ever hits. Why don't you tell us about the time you were actually in a life or death situation and defended yourself. How when the cops showed up they nodded and let you go because it was clearly self defense. How you didn't sweat bullets wondering if the DA was going to charge you. How the activists didn't show up to paint you as a murderous loose cannon. How you didn't get let go from your job because they didn't want the publicity.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 14:53:29

diemos wrote:
AdamB wrote:Sure. With me it was window washers in Houston, who I refused to give a $1 to after they smeared marsh bug guts all over my car window with their sleeves rather than cleaning the window. Quite irritated when I hit the wiper button to cure the mess they had made, more irritated I didn't pay the extortion money.


And exactly what did you do in that life or death situation? Did you roll down the window, pull out your piece and blow them away? Did you run them down with your car? Or did you just fume and maybe flip them off.


What an absolutely idiot idea, confusing bums doing what bums do with a life threatening situation. It is a good thing that you would rather suffer the consequences of whatever someone chooses to inflict on you rather than take responsibility for your own safety, you'd end up in jail for sheer stupid in a heartbeat.

diemos wrote:Sorry boss, but you strike me as a keyboard warrior who has all these fantasies about what you're gonna do if the situation ever hits.


Sounds like you are describing more the good ol' days around here, when folks were gaming how to make their own claymores to fend off the suburban hordes fleeing the big cities and whatnot. Easy to confuse that with any reasonable preparations for things far more likely to happen. Like getting an EV to get around peak oil generated high oil cost issues, or making sure that run of the mill home intrusions are handled in an appropriate way.

Bums throwing cans or washing windows being a life or death situation...talk about someone who shouldn't be allowed within range of nail clippers, let alone a firearm. Geez.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby diemos » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 15:00:32

Apparently sarcasm escapes you.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 15:35:15

diemos wrote:Apparently sarcasm escapes you.


Sarcasm doesn't come through so well in the written word. For example, there are people who actually defended peak oil as a world ending event on this very site, some decade or more back. As they said economic and geologically ignorant things, they weren't being sarcastic, they meant it, although they might now want their words not to be used against them, and claim it was just sarcasm.

So, some people might actually be so ignorant of the rules and expected behavior of modern society as to think exactly what you wrote, who am I to assume you were being sarcastic or lying or are ignorant of the topics under discussion? I just figure you mean what you write until you say otherwise, or in the case of the Happy McPeaksters, reality proves that some folks know stuff, and others just make shit up and pretend it is true.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby diemos » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 16:00:45

AdamB wrote:For example, there are people who actually defended peak oil as a world ending event on this very site, some decade or more back.


This fossil fuel consuming civilization will end. A different civilization will take its place. What the civilization will be like ... who can say?

AdamB wrote:So, some people might actually be so ignorant of the rules and expected behavior of modern society as to think exactly what you wrote, who am I to assume you were being sarcastic or lying or are ignorant of the topics under discussion?


And yet you thought that was so far outside the norms of societal behavior as to be idiotic. And yes, a bum throwing a full can of soda at your head is a life threatening situation, one smearing bugs on your car is not.

Although you used that to neatly sidestep admitting that you've never used deadly force to defend yourself in a life threatening situation.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 17:05:21

diemos wrote:
AdamB wrote:For example, there are people who actually defended peak oil as a world ending event on this very site, some decade or more back.


This fossil fuel consuming civilization will end.


Of course fossil fuel consumption will END, Hubbert himself said that. But peak oil isn't about ENDING, it is about less. What's the matter with you, are you a newbie to this topic? Hubbert, in the seminal work that peakers used to construct their rapture scenarios, didn't title it "End of the world wet dreams for the geologically challenged", the beginning of the title to that work in 1956 was "NUCLEAR ENERGY.....".

And in 2005-2008, the tense wasn't "will end", it was "is ending". If you followed some of the fools still posting here, they were saying stuff like "has ended". The one thing proven since the 2005-2008 time period is you don't take any of the suckers who claimed it was happening back then and allow them to rinse and recycle as your tense indicates.

diemos wrote:A different civilization will take its place. What the civilization will be like ... who can say?


Sure. Alternatively, who cares? The good news is that with peak demand having more credibility now than recycling bad resource economic ideas from the peanut gallery malthusians, we can decide what we want it to be, rather than having some important constraint forced upon us as we build the new future out.

diemos wrote:
AdamB wrote:So, some people might actually be so ignorant of the rules and expected behavior of modern society as to think exactly what you wrote, who am I to assume you were being sarcastic or lying or are ignorant of the topics under discussion?

And yet you thought that was so far outside the norms of societal behavior as to be idiotic.


I thought you wanting to engage in a potentially lethal fight with homeless people expressing irritation at your richness was idiotic. And sure, that kind of attitude is outside the norms of societal behavior I am familiar with.

diemos wrote:And yes, a bum throwing a full can of soda at your head is a life threatening situation, one smearing bugs on your car is not.


I told you already, you better understand where disproportionate self defensive measures are allowed, and where they are not, because someone throwing a can a soda ( which implies both distance and nothing resembling substantial physical harm) no more qualifies as a self defensive trigger than grandma trying to gum your finger off without her dentures in. Sure, a woke pansy might be scared by it, and react inappropriately without a clue as to what happens next in the legal system, but their ignorance of their rights and responsibilities as citizens is neither my fault nor concern. Unless I'm on the jury when someone goes to properly convict them for being a woke pansy of course.

diemos wrote:Although you used that to neatly sidestep admitting that you've never used deadly force to defend yourself in a life threatening situation.


I don't sidestep anything, I just didn't answer directly. I freely admit I've never used deadly force to defend myself in a life threatening situation. I also freely admit that I have used a firearm only once in my life to stop a felony from occurring (two burglars in the house, right after I graduated high school). Also, I've only had firearms pointed at me three times in my life where I was threatened, or people on my crew were, all work related. Who do you think gets the call when oil company workers get threatened by landowners? They call the supervisor who's job it is to deal with nutballs, and the honestly irritated. I am quite comfortable with being able to sniff out the differences between bums and cans of soda and serious folks threatening me with everything from baseball bats to centerfire rifles or shotguns. Of those 3 events, only one went to court, and the judge was quite harsh on the poor old guy. So is a bum throwing a can of soda the best you have experience with for soiling yourself and pretending it is a life threatening situation?
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby diemos » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 17:49:06

AdamB wrote:I also freely admit that I have used a firearm only once in my life to stop a felony from occurring (two burglars in the house, right after I graduated high school). Also, I've only had firearms pointed at me three times in my life where I was threatened, or people on my crew were, all work related.


Oh, I'm perfectly happy to count that. You've led a richer life than I have. The worst I can come up with is soldiers in Africa trying to extract bribes. Which, at the time, I was young and naive enough not to fully appreciate the danger I was in. And then there was also the village we were traveling through where a kid ran out in front of our motorcycle. The locals didn't have the concept of traffic accidents and were known to form mobs and beat people to death over them. We didn't hit the kid but he fell over and was frightened and crying and when the sound of the crowd started surging we booked out of there.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 27 Feb 2021, 18:41:58

diemos wrote:
AdamB wrote:I also freely admit that I have used a firearm only once in my life to stop a felony from occurring (two burglars in the house, right after I graduated high school). Also, I've only had firearms pointed at me three times in my life where I was threatened, or people on my crew were, all work related.


Oh, I'm perfectly happy to count that. You've led a richer life than I have.


I wouldn't call it "richer". I had a job. I did it. It has led to many interesting life stories, but I'm betting you and most of the undoubtedly older folks on this forum have those, on a large swath of topics. My cool stories come from being raised in the country on a small hobby farm, a career in the oil field and maybe cool car and motorcycle stories. Guns are only a hobby.

diemos wrote:The worst I can come up with is soldiers in Africa trying to extract bribes. Which, at the time, I was young and naive enough not to fully appreciate the danger I was in.


My college buddy joined the Peace Corps. He got stopped at a roadblock in some small African country, got scared, and ran. They shot him 3 times as he was running away. I was once offered a tripling of salary to work offshore in Nigeria, the alternative being laid off. I took the lay off.

diemos wrote: And then there was also the village we were traveling through where a kid ran out in front of our motorcycle. The locals didn't have the concept of traffic accidents and were known to form mobs and beat people to death over them. We didn't hit the kid but he fell over and was frightened and crying and when the sound of the crowd started surging we booked out of there.


I can imagine. There are places in this world where the rules of the First Worlders can be quite comforting, compared to the more dog eat dog regions.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 15 Mar 2021, 22:00:52

Article on Chinas ability to feed itself.

Also points to why I think there is a possible conflict between China and India in the offing. Perhaps China will align with Pakistan; the water and food axis?

Anyway, it all sounds very much like the LTG scenario.

https://outline.com/usmBRv
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:07:18

Review of a new book with some good news. Fertility rates falling.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/202 ... 842950002/
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:37:47

Newfie wrote:Review of a new book with some good news. Fertility rates falling.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/202 ... 842950002/


Great news. This is the most humane way we can get through human ecological overshoot.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby JuanP » Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:15:16

Newfie wrote:Review of a new book with some good news. Fertility rates falling.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/202 ... 842950002/


Fertility rates have been falling for decades, Newfie, since before I was born. The book may be new, but fertility rates falling is definitely not news. This has been a fact my whole life! And, we are decades, if not centuries, too late. Of course, it would be worse if they were not falling, but with a global population of almost 8,000 millions, which has been growing at around 80 millions per year lately, this is way too little way too late. The Arctic is melting, Climate Change positive kickback loops are kicking in, the oceans are acidifying, the soil is eroding, the aquifers are being depleted, pollution is rampant, resources are increasingly scarce. the Amazon is dying, etc., etc., etc..

https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:52:09

JuanP wrote: this is way too little way too late. The Arctic is melting, Climate Change positive kickback loops are kicking in................


Typical of ecological overshoot the forces of correction are often multiple. A dwindling resource provoked by a weather event can then lead to the emergence of disease, then losing in competition to another species in a population already weakened. In this example we see weather, disease, competition and starvation all being contributing factors.

There is no need to find or define or defend a single silver bullet here. Reduced sperm counts are one of a series of corrective forces bringing balance to a species in severe overshoot, restoring us long term to some new carrying capacity.

Complex systems create multiple supporting factors that lead to resilience and in times of correction lead to multiple factors that contribute to decline.

You get back to resiliency by allowing the actors (like reduced sperm counts) to do their important work.

There is that famous line about the only constant is change.. I would amend that a bit or add another one in regards to populations of organisms. . The only constant is a never ending balancing act between expansion and contraction.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby JuanP » Thu 18 Mar 2021, 12:21:45

Yes, Ibon, and the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19 reduces both sperm count and sperm motility, my favorite symptom of the disease. I can't wait for further research to prove just how much and for how long; I am hoping that at least some of the damage is permanent, particularly in the younger generations. Everything that reduces population growth in a nonviolent way is welcome news to me.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Pops » Fri 19 Mar 2021, 06:54:54

So it is good news that sperm count is falling but not good news that women are getting more of a say in baby making (see the last 5 pages)?

Gotta be something there, I just don't know what. LOL
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby JuanP » Fri 19 Mar 2021, 09:42:01

Pops wrote:So it is good news that sperm count is falling but not good news that women are getting more of a say in baby making (see the last 5 pages)?

Gotta be something there, I just don't know what. LOL


It is impossible to know who your post is addressed to, pops, if you don't provide a quote. I know it couldn't have been me since the last sentence on my post was "Everything that reduces population growth in a nonviolent way is welcome news to me."

You should be more specific so that whoever that post was addressed to will understand that. Carpe diem!
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 19 Mar 2021, 09:54:57

Pops wrote:So it is good news that sperm count is falling but not good news that women are getting more of a say in baby making (see the last 5 pages)?

Gotta be something there, I just don't know what. LOL


Personally I think the "good news" would be exactly the opposite, women should have full access to birth control and the choice of using it or not, but a low sperm count is nothing to celebrate as it indicates very bad outcomes long term and is often a sign of environmental factors like endocrine disruption and so on.
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby aadbrd » Fri 19 Mar 2021, 11:55:16

JuanP wrote:Everything that reduces population growth in a nonviolent way is welcome news to me.


Not just COVID if you accept Erin Brockovich's analysis.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -brokovich

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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby JuanP » Fri 19 Mar 2021, 12:12:54

aadbrd wrote:
JuanP wrote:Everything that reduces population growth in a nonviolent way is welcome news to me.


Not just COVID if you accept Erin Brockovich's analysis.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -brokovich

I welcome our Children of Men future although I could do without being surrounded by soyboys.


I have read multiple peer reviewed articles on the subject for decades, so EB's article on The Guardian is absolutely no news to me, though it may be news to you.

But, I give credit when credit is due, and I want to thank you for making a post that actually contributes something to the conversation. I really wish you would do this more often; your contributions would be really welcome. Congratulations on your achievement!
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Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 19 Mar 2021, 12:19:37

Reduced sperm counts, lower testosterone levels and shrinking penises all herald a new androgynous age. Combine this with the young generation preferring digital pornography over the smelly organic version and also a significant percentage chopping up their genitals changing their gender and yes we are on an excellent pathway to continue lowering fertility rates heading toward a functional carrying capacity.

Don't worry, somewhere on the other side of the bottleneck men will be men and women will be women.
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