Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Degrowth Thread

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 May 2020, 12:03:58

I think there is a lot of sense in discussing these issue simply because I can’t find any place else that does touch on them. Not with the frank honesty we have here.

At some point more people still come to ponder these thoughts, and we may have provided them guidance.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 12:12:44

Newfie wrote:REAL Green

Personally, I feel this is heroic and possesses higher meaning. The hardship and discomfort are worth the meaning returned to us for our sacrifice.


Personally o don’t feel like I’m sacrificing, quite the opposite. This may be because I’ve done my time in jail and am now home free. I’m loving my life.


I hear you and feel the same becuase this life has given me so much satisfaction. I was more saying that in regards to those opportunity costs of sacrifices made to lower my footprint. I have the money to travel and buy things but don't do what I could out of respect for the planet. My foot print could be much larger and my comforts much greater. I find meaning in sacrifice for something greater. I could do more and there are people much more deserving than me in this regard but my point is I am doing something.
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 12:16:24

Newfie wrote:At some point more people still come to ponder these thoughts, and we may have provided them guidance.


This guidance is for those who have explored the issues and come full circle to the existential questions that remain unanswerable.
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 May 2020, 12:20:01

One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.

I would like to see a substantial minimum wage established within the USA. $15/hr or thereabouts. People now claim we need illegal immigrants to do work Americans won’t do and I think that is because the wage offered is frequently too low. It’s not like the entire wage raise will be felt. To some degree the wages will offset unemployment and welfare. And it will provide incentive for business owners to develop AI solutions. And if we can reduce the immigration we can shrink the population. Ya a good slow solution but it’s at least moving in the right direction.

Trying how to disconnect the economy from eternal growth is a much trucker situation.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 13 May 2020, 13:07:17

Newfie wrote:One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.

I would like to see a substantial minimum wage established within the USA. $15/hr or thereabouts. People now claim we need illegal immigrants to do work Americans won’t do and I think that is because the wage offered is frequently too low. It’s not like the entire wage raise will be felt. To some degree the wages will offset unemployment and welfare. And it will provide incentive for business owners to develop AI solutions. And if we can reduce the immigration we can shrink the population. Ya a good slow solution but it’s at least moving in the right direction.

Trying how to disconnect the economy from eternal growth is a much trucker situation.
One problem with a $15/hr minimum wage is that robots cost $5/hr can be made to work 24/7 don't catch or spread Covid. don't strike or call in sick and never need maternity leave.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11877
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 13 May 2020, 13:48:39

Newfie wrote:One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.


This is why I am a closed border type with some flexibility of course. All nations have carrying capacity issues so any nation with open borders risks making that situation worse. I am not closed borders becuase of racism. Many countries can handle multi-cult situations while others can't. That is a different perspective
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 May 2020, 18:25:41

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.

I would like to see a substantial minimum wage established within the USA. $15/hr or thereabouts. People now claim we need illegal immigrants to do work Americans won’t do and I think that is because the wage offered is frequently too low. It’s not like the entire wage raise will be felt. To some degree the wages will offset unemployment and welfare. And it will provide incentive for business owners to develop AI solutions. And if we can reduce the immigration we can shrink the population. Ya a good slow solution but it’s at least moving in the right direction.

Trying how to disconnect the economy from eternal growth is a much trucker situation.
One problem with a $15/hr minimum wage is that robots cost $5/hr can be made to work 24/7 don't catch or spread Covid. don't strike or call in sick and never need maternity leave.


VT,
That is actually a good feature. Because if all those things it should depress our need to import immigrants quickening the decline in our population.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 13 May 2020, 18:29:08

REAL Green wrote:
Newfie wrote:One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.


This is why I am a closed border type with some flexibility of course. All nations have carrying capacity issues so any nation with open borders risks making that situation worse. I am not closed borders becuase of racism. Many countries can handle multi-cult situations while others can't. That is a different perspective


I understand. However the whole immigration issue has become such a political dividing line, it is a matter of religious belief, there is no rational discussion. Say the word and I get endless lectures. Both sides. Bah!
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby careinke » Fri 15 May 2020, 01:08:36

Newfie wrote:
REAL Green wrote:
Newfie wrote:One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.


This is why I am a closed border type with some flexibility of course. All nations have carrying capacity issues so any nation with open borders risks making that situation worse. I am not closed borders becuase of racism. Many countries can handle multi-cult situations while others can't. That is a different perspective


I understand. However the whole immigration issue has become such a political dividing line, it is a matter of religious belief, there is no rational discussion. Say the word and I get endless lectures. Both sides. Bah!


Three great minds seem to all be in favor closing the vast majority of immigration between countries with each nation assuming responsibility for itself. :wink:

How to get it done, and fund it is another longer post and could eventually involve changing our current monetary system. Lets face it our current debt based system is remarkably similar to the game of monopoly, and we all know how that ends.

In a nutshell, with no details, I'm for the U.S.to: Tax the robots and AI, localize most economies, UBI for ALL citizens set to twice the poverty level plus taxes, eliminate all taxes on citizens except consumption taxes.
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4039
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 15 May 2020, 06:30:36

careinke wrote:
Newfie wrote:
REAL Green wrote:
Newfie wrote:One place where I think we can make some progress is on population. First, place really like E.O. Wilson’s idea of half Earth, and that each country needs to find the correct responses for with its borders. Sort of an “eat the elephant” approach.


This is why I am a closed border type with some flexibility of course. All nations have carrying capacity issues so any nation with open borders risks making that situation worse. I am not closed borders becuase of racism. Many countries can handle multi-cult situations while others can't. That is a different perspective


I understand. However the whole immigration issue has become such a political dividing line, it is a matter of religious belief, there is no rational discussion. Say the word and I get endless lectures. Both sides. Bah!


Three great minds seem to all be in favor closing the vast majority of immigration between countries with each nation assuming responsibility for itself. :wink:


I would take this closing borders further. The idea of globalism and borders is such a big topic and high drama. The individual can get lost in this. Instead think about closing your immediate borders of people, place, and activity. Move to a place where people do not want to go as much. Find quality people and reduce your extended acquaintances. Get into an activity that allows these abstract borders. The planet and humanity are in decline from the overshoot of the Anthropocene. Nations that do not get this will worsen their overshoot that said taking in quality people can improve the situation. This means flexible borders but this still means borders and control. The US in the early 20th century was a different story. This open border crap of the techno optimist globalist who play the identity politics shouting racism and fairness are usually wealthy and can afford to be this way. Leave this level of discussion by realizing the greater condition of human and planetary overshoot. Localize your view of it. Is you can go to a place that less people will go to. Do things that takes your out of the herd. Downsize your life accept in Spirit. This is one area where there generally room for growth but even spirituality can be in overshoot. A person caught up in a spiritual rapture will neglect the physical and his people becuase of the embrace of the sacred of a higher power. The key is the mixture and that is unique to you the individual but with the commonality of human values and planetary health.
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 15 May 2020, 10:42:03

Call me a cynic but "quality people" are in short supply. What you're really talking about in the end is living alone like a mountain man.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
asg70
permanently banned
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 14:17:28

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 15 May 2020, 11:33:38

asg70 wrote:Call me a cynic but "quality people" are in short supply. What you're really talking about in the end is living alone like a mountain man.



There is a very small percentage of the people that are mentally capable of being “quality” and just as few bless with the resources to be nurtured to the awakened state. The living alone like a mountain man is more a metaphor for the awakened who may live among many people but they live alone in their awareness of the truth. The other issue is humility. The planet calls on such people to go forth on its behalf and not to use this power for selfish use. This is basically the way of the shaman who leads the tribe spiritually and often alone on the margins. This may sound word salad nutter but this deeper awareness is as old as intelligent man. If you have been called by the planet then accept your calling and go forth on its behalf unselfishly. Keep your proper scale and understand your mortality. This Life of being awakened will be short as the end speeds up the older you get. It often takes to post middle age to reach a true awakening because of all the experience needed. Many die on the way to the awakening. So, as you reach your twilight years with failing mind and body you hopefully will have built up a treasure chest of best practices and quality things for the young who are also being awakened behind you. Give them support and encouragement. Nothing special about all this. Yet, the mentality is very rare today becuase modern life has become so noisy.
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 15 May 2020, 19:09:06

REAL,

There is a book called “Keepers of the Game” that examines the Indians and their demise and goes into a fair bit of the spirituality you describe. He has some interesting ideas on how Indians, due to the influence of white men changed even before physical first contact. And how the white mans technology caused a revolution in the spiritual balance.

https://www.amazon.com/Keepers-Game-Cam ... 0520046374

Product Description
Examines the effects of European contact and the fur trade on the relationship between Indians and animals in eastern Canada, from Lake Winnipeg to the Canadian Maritimes, focusing primarily on the Ojibwa, Cree, Montagnais-Naskapi, and Micmac tribes.
From the Inside Flap
"A brilliant book which deals with the complex relationship between American Indians and animals, as it changed through time. Martin argues that an aboriginal ecosystem . . . was destroyed by 'European disease, Christianity and the fur trade,' and the symbiosis which had existed between hunters and their game turned into an adversary relationship."
-- New Republic

"The nature of the relationship between Indian and animal, he argues, was essentially a contract of mutual obligation and courtesy. When European epidemic disease began to ravage them, destroying perhaps 90 percent of the native population, Indians took it to be a 'conspiracy' by game animals against them. When their own medicine men were unable to cure these diseases, the stage was set for a 'war of retaliation'--the sacred agreement with the Keepers of the Game having been broken. . . . [T]here is a fine and fair mind at work here."
-- Harper's
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Fri 15 May 2020, 19:24:03

Newfie wrote:REAL, There is a book called “Keepers of the Game” that examines the Indians and their demise and goes into a fair bit of the spirituality you describe. He has some interesting ideas on how Indians, due to the influence of white men changed even before physical first contact. And how the white mans technology caused a revolution in the spiritual balance.


I put it on my book list. I enjoy reading history from that time period. I have a large library of books. Since I am a prepper, I prefer to buy paper books. I find a large library a thing of beauty also. Thanks, Newfie.
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Revi » Sun 17 May 2020, 10:53:50

I talk quite a bit to friends from the Penobscot Nation. They don't really agree with the presumption that the State of Maine has control over Wabanakeag, or their homeland. They have been watching us screw the place up for about 400 years now, and their claim has dwindled to the islands on the Penobscot and a few chunks of woodland way up north. They have a right to be in their homeland, and never relinquished it. It's an interesting viewpoint.

We are in their territory, and they still remember it.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
User avatar
Revi
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7335
Joined: Mon 25 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Maine

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 17 May 2020, 18:40:34

This popped up on our home page for me.

https://capsweb.org/blog/world-populati ... s-will-be/
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby REAL Green » Sun 17 May 2020, 19:09:28

Newfie wrote:This popped up on our home page for me.

https://capsweb.org/blog/world-populati ... s-will-be/


Newf, that was a 2016 article. Since we are 2020 post covid demand destruction it is possible a stalling out of population growth may start happening now becuase of food issues. That is just my take on it. I have read several articles on food problems across the globe both economic and weather related.


“Hunger Pandemic: Visualizing COVID-19's Effect On Global Food Insecurity”
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/hunger ... insecurity
https://www.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inli ... k=wpjWn4m3
realgreenadaptation.blog
User avatar
REAL Green
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1088
Joined: Thu 09 Apr 2020, 05:29:28
Location: MO Ozarks

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 18 May 2020, 09:25:19

Yes, I don’t know why it popped up but it did and I thought it a good article putting to bed the argument that raising people’s/women’s wealth and letting them run their reproduction is sufficient.

It would be interesting to see how things have panned out. But since the publication the population has increased, and continues to, that answer is evident.

Will corona slow the population? I’ve no idea, but it doesn’t seem to be effecting Africa much.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 15676
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 18 May 2020, 10:51:38

Newfie wrote:Yes, I don’t know why it popped up but it did and I thought it a good article putting to bed the argument that raising people’s/women’s wealth and letting them run their reproduction is sufficient.

It would be interesting to see how things have panned out. But since the publication the population has increased, and continues to, that answer is evident.

Will corona slow the population? I’ve no idea, but it doesn’t seem to be effecting Africa much.
The world as a whole has not given educating women and giving them access to birth control a decent test so I doubt their conclusions. With my own three daughters it certainly worked as they have just one child between them .
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 11877
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Degrowth Thread

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 18 May 2020, 11:24:44

Even in the US look at how strong the anti-abortion and anti-planned-parenthood faction is. It hasn't really worked and will never work because not enough buy-in.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
asg70
permanently banned
 
Posts: 4301
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2017, 14:17:28

PreviousNext

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests